Water change during cycle?

[jmitch7417]

Do i need to do a water change during my cycle or no? I cannot remember I am leaning to know, but I am going to ask the pros.

 

Ammonia .5ppm

Nitrite of the chart

nitrate 10ppm

Phosphate 8.2

 

My worry is the nitrates should i leave them go?

[brandon429]

lets see pics of your live rock, to answer your cycle question we have to know which kind of rock you are cycling

 

your nitrates indicate you have either dosed bottle bac or are using live rock already, cant wait to see. if you used wet pack live sand that will make nitrates too typically, and they don't matter to your cycle only ammonia matters see this

http://reef2reef.com/threads/new-tank-cycling-tank-bacteria-and-cocktail-shrimp-live-rock-no-shrimp.214618/

 

 

of all the params you are measuring, only ammonia needs to be known. you can chase the other two, nitrite and nitrate, but deep reading there shows why only one matters, makes this so much easier.

 

if you are using live sand and dry rock, group A rocks from that specific thread above, then you just maintain your ammonia at 1 ppm for a few weeks while dosing bottle back, so simple, it will pass the digestion test in that thread in probably 20 days or so easily due to the sand component if applicable.

 

if you have dosed all kinds of amounts above 1 ppm, you can change out your water and start clean. be sure and see the other high-nitrite cycle thread here up top, you are heading that direction. it is ok to keep heading there, but the thread above makes it a one measure deal if simple is appealing.

[jmitch7417]

Brandon,

 

I am just running base rocks with live sand if it is really live. lol I dosed Dr. Tim's ammonia along with bacteria.

[debbeach13]

Welcome Wishing you years of enjoyment.Please try searching this so many threads. So much info

[brandon429]

so its ok not to rip out all of your water but if you ever need to, the only thing that matters is you reset the ammonia back to 1 ppm consistently, or thereabouts, and give it three weeks churning and hungry eating up the ammonia. if you keep it at 1ppm the nitrites will be in self balance by the time you pass and attempt a digestion test.

 

if you ever get messed up, too much of something dosed, do a massive water change to fix it as much as needed, don't add a counter-doser to the water those mess up api test kits sometimes and other brands too possibly. its water changes to reset, a little ammonia, bottle bac, and 20 days ish so simple!

[jmitch7417]

Brandon,

 

I am at 3 weeks this saturday, and I have had readings of 5ppm or higher since day 3 of the the cycle. They are still reading the same. I have been dosing the ammonia to between 1 and 2ppm daily. It is taking between 12 and 18hrs for it to be gone. So should I just keep up with the daily dosing and not worry about it.

 

Also nitrates are reading 160ppm. I am not to worried about that because I will do the mass water change after the cycle, but with it being that high will it affect the cycle?

[brandon429]

Nitrates cannot stall the cycle that's just algae food

 

If I understand correctly you've maintained both bottle bac, liquid ammonia at a few ppm and at least three weeks, that's within the known timeframes for fishless cycling

 

You are mentioning measurable ammonia digestion within 24 hours... things sound on track

 

If it was my tank under this timing I'd change out all the water, dose to 1-2 ppm only, final digest test. If zero in 24 hours add some easy corals and snails, begin fish quarantining for next month etc

 

Three weeks is within Dr Tim's known establishment time.

[jmitch7417]

The nitrites have not dropped off to 0 at all in this 3 week time though. So should i let the cycle continue still or try to do a water change and see what happens?

[xilez]

Per Dr Tims I would do a water change. Take a look at my thread here: a lot of good information about the EXACT situation you are experiencing.

 

http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/376471-nitrites-too-high-during-cycle-help-please/

[seabass]

In DrTim's Aquatics' guide to fishless cycling, they warn against letting nitrite (or ammonia) get above 5ppm. They say that this inhibits the bacteria (in this case the nitrite oxidizing bacteria). If nitrite (or ammonia) climbs above this level, do a large water change (or series of water changes) to lower it below 5ppm.

 

This thread thoroughly discusses your current situation: http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/376471-nitrites-too-high-during-cycle-help-please/

 

 

Edit: Looks like xilez beat me to it.

[brandon429]

be sure and read the link I posted about nitrites, we provide good detail from Randy Holmes Farley there, adding nitrite testing is unneeded. you can still choose to however. And, anyone who wants to cycle live rock with shrimp sure can, and it will survive

 

the thread is about cutting wasteful confusing events in cycling, considering the bulk of testing is done by totally unverified API color testing and offset by how every chart we posted shows when ammonia complies, nitrite complies, and was never toxic in the first place. choose your source, and cycle!

 

I can't count how many tanks we cycle on using ammonia as shown. we do that to correct the thousands of tough cycle posts, and they all shared common variables we didn't include in the thread.

 

You only have to manage ammonia to cycle any tank, although you can test for magnesium too just the same if concerned. it wont tie into what ammonia does, and nitrite wont either. the big water change and fresh start at 1 ppm was totally factored in the recommend.

 

There is nothing wrong with testing nitrites and nitrates, but theres nothing wrong with 1 param cycling either, we show

 

this is web advice, varies... choose and run~

[brandon429]

When you do the recommended big change you export bacteria added out of the water column that may be from adding bottle bac... We want to know what the rocks do, depends on how often you were adding bottle bac. it also resets your nitrite to zero because the masses cannot help but test it heh. such good counter links in the thread to ease that concern...

 

to ease the nitrite fear, try and find a cycling chart that shows nitrite not complying when ammonia is known digestible.<---does not include cyclers who dosed giant amounts of unverified ammonia into the tank, its including examples that follow the max ammonia of 1-2 ppm as no charts show to dose it to 7-8, during a cycle.

Then when you liquid dose back to 1 ppm it tests only what the substrates do...without the current nitrite you are seeing because it was just reset to zero. All was factored in the recommend, and the thread linked up top for cycling group A vs B rocks

[seabass]

It's pretty simple, just follow the instructions that DrTim's Aquatics provides and you'll be fine.

 

I can tell you this. If you do a 100% water change, you'll export the nitrate and nitrite (but not the bacteria). Seeing that nitrate is so high, it's pretty safe to assume that you have enough bacteria to support a small cleanup crew.

 

Change out the water and verify that ammonia remains undetectable for a couple of days before adding a small cleanup crew of carnivores and omnivores (so you can feed them sparingly a couple of times a week). If all goes well, add a small fish. Wait until you see some algae before adding herbivores.

[Canadianeh]

tagged

[Canadianeh]

I am new to reef tank. Why Algae is bad? What's the connection between Algae, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate in salt water tank

[seabass]

I am new to reef tank. Why Algae is bad? What's the connection between Algae, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate in salt water tank

Algae in itself is natural. However, due to the limitations of our tanks (limited grazers and excessive nutrients), algae growth can reach plague proportions if left unchecked.

 

Phosphate over 0.03ppm is one of the bigger factors in excessive algae growth. But nitrate (and even ammonia) also contributes. Nitrite is part of the cycle; it's typically undetectable in a tank with an established nitrogen cycle.

[jmitch7417]

Thanks guys. I did about a 90 percent water change today everything went down. I dosed my Ammonia back up and will see what it is at, but it looks like all I needed to do a water change.

 

This ammonia dosing was def. way different then using live rock. Thanks again for the help.

[Canadianeh]

Algae in itself is natural. However, due to the limitations of our tanks (limited grazers and excessive nutrients), algae growth can reach plague proportions if left unchecked.

 

Phosphate over 0.03ppm is one of the bigger factors in excessive algae growth. But nitrate (and even ammonia) also contributes. Nitrite is part of the cycle; it's typically undetectable in a tank with an established nitrogen cycle.

Then why would aquarist create refugium if algae create risk in tanks?

[brandon429]

They are in a controlled zone there. We don't think the refugium should be all over the display rocks choking out the corals

 

They can be harvested in the refugium, and set upon substrates where sps are not

 

It's about where we farm the algae

[Canadianeh]

For what purpose they farm the algae? In AIO tanks they use one of the chambers as refugium. Why they are doing it?

[brandon429]

Some people like to let the plants bind up the nitrogen and phosphorous generated within the system, then pluck out the algae to export it.

 

The distinction between having any zone of control for algae vs having algae grow in and takeover the display area is the important contrast

[Canadianeh]

That's good but is it a guarantee that the algae will only grow in the refugium?

[jmitch7417]

2ppm of ammonia gone in 14hrs. nitrites still are at 1ish ppm, but everyone says that does not matter so I am going to go with it. Nitrate reading 0. So it looks like the huge water change yesterday may of been the solution.

[seabass]

That's good but is it a guarantee that the algae will only grow in the refugium?

You choose the species of algae that you use in the refugium (chaeto is very common). This algae doesn't tend to spread into the display; and if pieces do enter the display, they are easily removed.

 

A refugium is a way to export nutrients, it helps, but doesn't eliminate to possibility that you will get pest algae in your display. More people would use them if they were more effective.

 

 

2ppm of ammonia gone in 14hrs. nitrites still are at 1ish ppm, but everyone says that does not matter so I am going to go with it. Nitrate reading 0. So it looks like the huge water change yesterday may of been the solution.

Yep, you are in business now.

[Canadianeh]

Thank you so much Seabass! I also found a link that related to our discussion. Please let me know if the information is valid or not.

http://www.ratemyfishtank.com/blog/the-benefits-of-algae-in-saltwater-tanks