Intelligent Design is Natural Filtration

[Subsea]

After four years in the Air Force ending in Nov of 1970, I thought I wanted to be Jaques Cousteau and lean to a Marine Science career. The marine biology department head at LSU advised me to attend Texas Maritime Academy in Galveston, as a Marine Engineer. During that first semester, I attended Oceaneering 101 and learned how to see these natural systems as being interconnected and dependent on each other. During that first summer in the Galveston Bay Area, I set up a theme tank, I collected natural saltwater on an incoming tide at the Galveston jetties. Also collected at the jetties were anemone and peppermint shrimp. Using a small net in the marsh reed grasses, I collected green mollies and grass shrimps. For substrate , I used crushed up oyster shells which were used in chicken feed houses. For live rock, I collected an oyster cluster with numerous differrent filter feeders.

 

 

 

As an engineer, I lean toward natural systems that self regulate. I don't like fighting "Mother Nature". As a control systems.engineer on complex subsea BOP control systems, I found that the more bells and whistles there were, the more things that could go wrong.

In speaking with educated pHD in microbiology and physics, it is evident that biological processes are far more complex and efficient than previously understood. Future research to understand how corals communicate to schronize a coral mass spawning that can be seen from space. Because nothing happens in a vacum, the dynamics to equalize nitrogen and carbon dioxide maintain nutrient export and import that is self regulating as well as photosynthetic energy producing oxygen and sugar, which is a form of carbon dosing "nature style".

 

This thread will talk about differrent natural processes and the science behind them.

[Harrisonbored]

Looking forward to reading this thread. I completely agree with the "don't fight Mother Nature" type system philosophy.

 

But your title got my mind to thinking about the "Dinosaur pee" debate.

[debbeach13]

Thanks for your service. I will follow this. Sounds good

[Nano sapiens]

Looking forward to reading this thread. I completely agree with the "don't fight Mother Nature" type system philosophy. But your title got my mind to thinking about the "Dinosaur pee" debate.

 

Considering that our little planet is (mostly) a closed, self-contained environment, we all are just made out of continuously recycled substances. To think of us as drinking dino pee is of course not correct in the strict sense, but the molecules of some of the water we drink was at one time 'dino pee' (or contained in a dino pee-poop combination since it's unclear if their pee and poop were seperate, or not). Some of the water was also insect pee, bison pee, lizard pee, fish pee...you name it

 

In our reef tanks, much of the 'waste' is recyled via various mechanisms. However, certain substances such as refractory organic compounds (i.e. 'Gelbstoff' or 'Yellowing Compounds') are difficult for bacteria to reduce and tend to build up in tanks where GAC isn't used (or isn't used properly) and/or water changes are infrequent.

[Han Solo]

I'm an engineer too and I found that this hobby has a lot of engineering opportunities and design. Apart from all the awesome marine life. Perhaps in another life I'd have been a marine biologist. Would be interested in an opportunity for marine engineering though Except I live in the middle of the country

Well I would say our planet is very much an open loop system. We all came from the stars and the dust and the elements in space and so the planet and us are all going back there one day. Of course light comes from the sun every day outside of our world, too.

 

 

 

Considering that our little planet is (mostly) a closed, self-contained environment, we all are just made out of continuously recycled substances. To think of us as drinking dino pee is of course not correct in the strict sense, but the molecules of some of the water we drink was at one time 'dino pee' (or contained in a dino pee-poop combination since it's unclear if their pee and poop were seperate, or not). Some of the water was also insect pee, bison pee, lizard pee, fish pee...you name it

 

In our reef tanks, much of the 'waste' is recyled via various mechanisms. However, certain substances such as refractory organic compounds (i.e. 'Gelbstoff' or 'Yellowing Compounds') are difficult for bacteria to reduce and tend to build up in tanks where GAC isn't used (or isn't used properly) and/or water changes are infrequent.

[Neill.w]

After four years in the Air Force ending in Nov of 1970, I thought I wanted to be Jaques Cousteau and lean to a Marine Science career. The marine biology department head at LSU advised me to attend Texas Maritime Academy in Galveston, as a Marine Engineer. During that first semester, I attended Oceaneering 101 and learned how to see these natural systems as being interconnected and dependent on each other. During that first summer in the Galveston Bay Area, I set up a theme tank, I collected natural saltwater on an incoming tide at the Galveston jetties. Also collected at the jetties were anemone and peppermint shrimp. Using a small net in the marsh reed grasses, I collected green mollies and grass shrimps. For substrate , I used crushed up oyster shells which were used in chicken feed houses. For live rock, I collected an oyster cluster with numerous differrent filter feeders.

 

 

 

As an engineer, I lean toward natural systems that self regulate. I don't like fighting "Mother Nature". As a control systems.engineer on complex subsea BOP control systems, I found that the more bells and whistles there were, the more things that could go wrong.

In speaking with educated pHD in microbiology and physics, it is evident that biological processes are far more complex and efficient than previously understood. Future research to understand how corals communicate to schronize a coral mass spawning that can be seen from space. Because nothing happens in a vacum, the dynamics to equalize nitrogen and carbon dioxide maintain nutrient export and import that is self regulating as well as photosynthetic energy producing oxygen and sugar, which is a form of carbon dosing "nature style".

 

This thread will talk about differrent natural processes and the science behind them.

 

I really like the conclusions you have made. They are very similar to my own and oddly enough like you, I also have a background in electronic control system. Its like some of the complex systems we build for aquariums are really fighting against entropy (in a metaphorical sense)

 

The minimalist approach seems to be making a comeback at the moment.

[Nano sapiens]

 

Well I would say our planet is very much an open loop system. We all came from the stars and the dust and the elements in space and so the planet and us are all going back there one day. Of course light comes from the sun every day outside of our world, too.

 

 

 

I see your point about light coming in from the outside which drives photsynthesis, etc., but I'd have to disagree that the planet as it stands today is an 'open loop' system in regards to nutrients. While we do have a relatively small amount of input from meteorites, comets, cosmic dust and such, for the most part what we have in our ecosphere...is what we have.

 

Now If you take the really long term view in billions of years, then yes all elements that make up our planet came from the outside and it will likely be recycled back into the cosmos again in the distant future.

[Subsea]

I really like the conclusions you have made. They are very similar to my own and oddly enough like you, I also have a background in electronic control system. Its like some of the complex systems we build for aquariums are really fighting against entropy (in a metaphorical sense)

 

The minimalist approach seems to be making a comeback at the moment.

When I started in this hobby, we had little to guide us in 1970. When I read John Tullock's book "The Narural Aquarium" it all can together for me with one phrase, "less technology, more biology".

,

[Subsea]

I'm an engineer too and I found that this hobby has a lot of engineering opportunities and design. Apart from all the awesome marine life. Perhaps in another life I'd have been a marine biologist. Would be interested in an opportunity for marine engineering though Except I live in the middle of the country

Well I would say our planet is very much an open loop system. We all came from the stars and the dust and the elements in space and so the planet and us are all going back there one day. Of course light comes from the sun every day outside of our world, too.

 

i do not so much think of open or closed loop as much as I think of dynamic equilibrium.

[Subsea]

Dynamic Equilibrium

 

Oceaneerng 101 states that carbon dioxide in the athmosphere and calcium carbonate sediments maintain a pH of 8.3. This self regulating process is chemical dynamic equilibrium.

 

A second self regulating process between athmosphere and ocean is the dynamic equilibrium between free nitrogen gas and the nitrate molecule. This dynamic equilibrium is driven by bacteria. On one end, a free nitrate molecule is converted into free nitrogen gas. This is denitrification. It requires reduced oxygen conditions with faculative bacteria. How does the ocean fertilize itself to grow things. Through a process called nitrogen fixation nitrogen gas is converted into the nitrate molecule by bacteria, mostly cynobacteria.

 

Yes, cynobacteria produces its own nitrate. Randy Holmes Farley discribes a process in which cynobacteria converts inorganic phosphate, calcium phosphate, into organic phosphate by usiing a biofeedback loop. Imagine that, smart bacteria. Now you know why cynobacteria can flourish with zero nitrate or phosphate in the water colume. Cyno makes its own nitrogen and phosphate.

[Nano sapiens]

When I started in this hobby, we had little to guide us in 1970. When I read John Tullock's book "The Narural Aquarium" it all can together for me with one phrase, "less technology, more biology".

,

 

Having been in this hobby for a few decades, I've seen the ebb-and-flow between proponents of the 'natural' and 'technology-driven' systems. What I find most interesting is the recurrent belief that some seem to have that technology will fix all the problems that people often believe are inherent in reef keeping. This perspective fits in well with the prevailing mechanistic-centric point of view that all parts of a system can be broken down into individual components and then 'fixed'. Works great for man-made machinery, but living organisms and systems are holistic by nature, which is a concept that until fairly recently was not taught/understood well in the western world.

 

Phosphate is an excellent example. Before we could test for any form of phosphate, no one gave it much thought. So if algae got to be a problem, there was no "Oh my, looks like I have high PO4". But we did know that dirty conditions weren't reef healthy and promoted algae growth. Ergo, clean the tank and keep it clean...which reduced organics/phosphates.

[Subsea]

Having been in this hobby for a few decades, I've seen the ebb-and-flow between proponents of the 'natural' and 'technology-driven' systems. What I find most interesting is the recurrent belief that some seem to have that technology will fix all the problems that people often believe are inherent in reef keeping. This perspective fits in well with the prevailing mechanistic-centric point of view that all parts of a system can be broken down into individual components and then 'fixed'. Works great for man-made machinery, but living organisms and systems are holistic by nature, which is a concept that until fairly recently was not taught/understood well in the western world.

 

Phosphate is an excellent example. Before we could test for any form of phosphate, no one gave it much thought. So if algae got to be a problem, there was no "Oh my, looks like I have high PO4". But we did know that dirty conditions weren't reef healthy and promoted algae growth. Ergo, clean the tank and keep it clean...which reduced organics/phosphates.

 

Holistic in nature, for me, translates to "nothing happens in a vacum". Only in the last ten years have marine biologist and Oceaneering researchers coined the phrase the "coral holobiont" to highlight the facts that demonstrate how interconnected systems are.

[Han Solo]

The sun delivers something like 10x the amount of energy per day than humans consume. How well would the ocean's algae be growing without the sun? But yeh, kind of a semantic arguement.

 

 

I see your point about light coming in from the outside which drives photsynthesis, etc., but I'd have to disagree that the planet as it stands today is an 'open loop' system in regards to nutrients. While we do have a relatively small amount of input from meteorites, comets, cosmic dust and such, for the most part what we have in our ecosphere...is what we have.

 

Now If you take the really long term view in billions of years, then yes all elements that make up our planet came from the outside and it will likely be recycled back into the cosmos again in the distant future.

[Subsea]

Holistic in nature, for me, translates to "nothing happens in a vacum". Only in the last ten years have marine biologist and Oceaneering researchers coined the phrase the "coral holobiont" to highlight the facts that demonstrate how interconnected systems are.

http://www.thereeftank.com/blog/the-coral-holobiont/

[Subsea]

When I worked with irrigation flow mechanics, the academics came up with "leaky hydraulics" to do the math. That is what I think of in this discussion. It is both open and close loop.

 

Considering that light and photosynthesis drive most of the chemistry and biology in our oceans, let's start there. Through photosynthesis phytoplankton in the top 100' utilize carbon dioxide to produce oxygen and sugar, This is nature's way to carbon dose the ocean from the athmosphere. This a reversible process between athmosphere and ocean with carbon dioxide in dynamic equilibrium.

 

Now, let us consider the nitrogen molecule. As a free gas it is the most abundent component in athmosphere. Through a process called nitrogen fixation, bacteria convert nitrogen gas to the nitrate molecule. In the ocean it is mostly done by cynobacteria. Denitrifying bacteria can reduce the natrate molecule to free nitrogen gas. So it is a reversible process using differrent bacteria: cynobacteria as opposed to faculative bacteria.

[Harrisonbored]

http://www.thereeftank.com/blog/the-coral-holobiont/

 

amazing info.

I had never even considered marine fungi, but now in retrospect...duh.

 

I'd have to disagree that the planet as it stands today is an 'open loop' system in regards to nutrients. While we do have a relatively small amount of input from meteorites, comets, cosmic dust and such, for the most part what we have in our ecosphere...is what we have.

 

what about transuranium elements and their effects?

[Subsea]

http://www.thereeftank.com/blog/the-coral-holobiont/

In reading the last few paragraph, there is a section about a back up nitrate source. Yes, coral have a portion of cynobacteria imbedded in zooanthellia. When primary source of nitrate is not available, coral will adjust this source of nitrate.

 

So coral uses differrent nutrient enrichment protocols depending on need as required. An automatic back up system that relies on multiple nutrient pathways. We have already established that bacteria processes have auto feed back loops to self regulate.

 

The control system gets more complex.

[Nano sapiens]

 

what about transuranium elements and their effects?

 

Man-made heavy particles...relatively small amounts produced in the lab. Some (all?) of these elements may have existed in the early life history of the earth, but their half-lives are significantly shorter that the earth's lifetime, so we no longer find them naturally produced (exceptions being trace amounts of plutonium and neptunium that form in some uranium-rich rock).

 

How they may have infulenced life on earth early on...can't say.

[Subsea]

Moving on to another reality in a parellel universe.

 

I have already mentioned two dynamic equilibrium processes in the interaction between ocean and athmosphere: nitrogen gas as a source of fertilizer and carbon dioxide plus photosynthesis equals oxygen and sugar, as natures form of carbon dosing. It is a cocktail to grow something. In our aquarium, we want our nutrient sink to be something desirable like coral, fish, ornamental macros and yes, utilitarian macros that are ediable for humane consumption.

 

The bio chemistry that drives the engine that feeds earth happens at the water air interface.

 

To promote natural processes using dynamic equilibrium of gas in athmosphere in our reef tanks happens at the water surface. Gas exchange is a two way process that is critical for nutrient recycling.

 

Oxygen is the third major gas in the athmosphere that has dynamic equilibrium at the air-water interface.

 

So, to summarize, three major gases in athmosphere (nitrogen, carbon dioxide, oxygen) are driven by photosynthesis with carbon dioxide and nitrogen with bacteria to fuel the engine that grows the food and clean the air.

 

Enhanced air water gas exchange is an integral part of natural filtration.

[Nano sapiens]

Enhanced air water gas exchange is an integral part of natural filtration.

 

And largely explains why 'open-top' aquaria have become so popular as enhanced gas exchange has been recognized as advantageous, no matter the type of system used.

[Harrisonbored]

Enhanced air water gas exchange is an integral part of natural filtration.

So in watching your YouTube channel it seems like you favor airstones and/or waterfalls for your tanks.

Those videos are a couple years old now...have you changed anything or found a more efficient way?

[Subsea]

On all my aquariums, I promote aggressive circulation at the water surface. With small 5W pancake blowers high CFM flow rates for air can be achieved at the point of intersection. Turbulent flow from perpendicular vectors of air and water achieve maximum gas exchange which includes evaporation and cooling.

[Subsea]

So in watching your YouTube channel it seems like you favor airstones and/or waterfalls for your tanks.

Those videos are a couple years old now...have you changed anything or found a more efficient way?

In green house outside grow-out, I used air for economical circulation of water. I also used hot dry air for evaporative cooling during the summer.

 

In my only reef tank with a refugium, I have a 75G Jaubert Plenum on top with a 30G Mud EcoSystem filter/refugium on bottom.

[Subsea]

Does a refugium export nutrients?

 

The main function of a refugium is to process nutrients usung multiple food webs and to feed the tank live food. The goal of a refugium is to maintain a "nutrient sink" that is desirable: like corals or fish.

 

Nutrient export happens if macro is pruned and removed or if coral is fragged and removed.

[Subsea]

On 8/31/2016 at 7:46 PM, Neill.w said:

 

I really like the conclusions you have made. They are very similar to my own and oddly enough like you, I also have a background in electronic control system. Its like some of the complex systems we build for aquariums are really fighting against entropy (in a metaphorical sense)

 

The minimalist approach seems to be making a comeback at the moment.

Yes, I like natural systems.  They are cheapest to set up and the easiest to maintain.  After 40 years of reefkeeping, I have bought a truckload of gagets that I discarded to go to natural systerms.  John Tullock said it best in his book "The Natural Reef Aquarium":  Less Technology/More Biology.   He wrote that in the 1990's.  I wonder what he would think about the technology today.

 

Nothing has intrigued me more than the lighting schedule in our refugiums.  I first ran 24 hour lighting schedule using Caulerpa.  The idea was to prevent it from going sexual.  It worked OK.  I then went to a differrent macro and changed to an oppossite light cycle to stabalize pH fluctuations during lights out.  There are no oppossite light cycles on the ocean reefs.  I have no opposite light cycle on my sumpless tanks.  They do well with modertate pH fluctuations from 8.1 to 7.8 which promotes dissolving aroggonite to help with buffering and trace mineral addittion.  With that said, two weeks ago, I have changed to simultaneous lights on my 75G Jaubert Plenumn with a Leng Sy mud macro refugium that has been set up for 10 years.

 

We shall see how important opposite light cycles are.