First time dealing with marine ich on a new clown. What am I in for?!

[stellarsjay]

Any and all help here is so appreciated!

 

I don't want to make this post too long so please ask and I will provide any information!

 

So I have a 12g nano cube with a small pair of clowns (1 inch and maybe 1/2 inch). I was devastated when I saw the little male had jumped through a 1/2 inch gap between the tank wall and the lid and he jumped into the overflow. He didn't make it

 

I decided to try again with another tiny clown and adjust the lid to eliminate jumping! So he arrived yesterday and looked a bit stressed. He did have one or two tiny white spots (major alarms should have gone off), and he was a little pale from his flight. He was a little tired looking but perked right up after being added. His color came back wonderfully and I didn't notice the spots anymore (?!). My female chased him quite a bit for about and hour but let up and left him alone shortly after. All seemed fine and I had left him overnight to chill in his new home. I should mention I also ordered a tiny clown goby (1/2 inch) long and he looks to be in perfect shape. Acclimation seemed to go great and all was looking good!

 

This morning the new clown is swimming quite slowly and I notice LOTS of white spots (will get a photo). Very similar to freshwater ich, which I have experience with! I decided it was time for action and hastily set up a QT for the little guy.

 

So, that is where I am at today. He really perked up and swims around the QT and has been nibbling on flaked food like a little boss. Still covered in about a dozen specs of what look loke grains of salt.

 

Params: 0/0/2 for amm/nitri/nitra and pH is 8.2. Temp stays around 79.

 

So, now I'm worried about my 12g nano. Currently has the original clown and new goby. No issues, no spots, nothing. I have never seen spots on either of the two (original) clowns since I have had them, which must be about 6 months? Until the little guy jumped, which was last week.

 

Maybe I've had ich in my tank the whole time? But only the new/tiny clown is showing signs? How did he go from having 2 spots, to none, to 12 in a day?

 

I plan on trying hypo but am open to your advice and experiences! Lesson learned. Quarantine new fish. I know nothing is ever guaranteed but I would like to prevent this from happening again, if I can!

 

Thanks guys. As a newbie I appreciate any info or resources, even if it's a hard truth.

[Mariaface]

You've had ich, and unless you leave the main tank fallow (no fish) for 10 weeks, you'll continue to have it. Any future additions may reintroduce it as well, even corals/inverts.

 

If you're not willing to quarantine all three fish for 10 weeks, along with any new additions to the tank, then I say leave the display as is. Healthy fish can deal with one or two ich parasites hiding in their gills occasionally, and clowns have a thick slime coat that helps defend against it just a bit further. Make sure the main tank has a healthy bacterial population, well-fed and non-stressed fish, clean water, etc, and things should go well. Try not to add very sensitive fish to this tank - two clowns should be on the high end for bioload anyway.

 

For the already sick fish, treat for the ich and give him a few weeks to recover. Feed small amounts multiple times a day, make sure he's active and swimming well, and ready to fend for himself - then reintroduce him to the main tank. I'd outright treat with copper, even if it's a little stressful - never done hypo, though.

[Cencalfishguy56]

Any and all help here is so appreciated!

 

I don't want to make this post too long so please ask and I will provide any information!

 

So I have a 12g nano cube with a small pair of clowns (1 inch and maybe 1/2 inch). I was devastated when I saw the little male had jumped through a 1/2 inch gap between the tank wall and the lid and he jumped into the overflow. He didn't make it

 

I decided to try again with another tiny clown and adjust the lid to eliminate jumping! So he arrived yesterday and looked a bit stressed. He did have one or two tiny white spots (major alarms should have gone off), and he was a little pale from his flight. He was a little tired looking but perked right up after being added. His color came back wonderfully and I didn't notice the spots anymore (?!). My female chased him quite a bit for about and hour but let up and left him alone shortly after. All seemed fine and I had left him overnight to chill in his new home. I should mention I also ordered a tiny clown goby (1/2 inch) long and he looks to be in perfect shape. Acclimation seemed to go great and all was looking good!

 

This morning the new clown is swimming quite slowly and I notice LOTS of white spots (will get a photo). Very similar to freshwater ich, which I have experience with! I decided it was time for action and hastily set up a QT for the little guy.

 

So, that is where I am at today. He really perked up and swims around the QT and has been nibbling on flaked food like a little boss. Still covered in about a dozen specs of what look loke grains of salt.

 

Params: 0/0/2 for amm/nitri/nitra and pH is 8.2. Temp stays around 79.

 

So, now I'm worried about my 12g nano. Currently has the original clown and new goby. No issues, no spots, nothing. I have never seen spots on either of the two (original) clowns since I have had them, which must be about 6 months? Until the little guy jumped, which was last week.

 

Maybe I've had ich in my tank the whole time? But only the new/tiny clown is showing signs? How did he go from having 2 spots, to none, to 12 in a day?

 

I plan on trying hypo but am open to your advice and experiences! Lesson learned. Quarantine new fish. I know nothing is ever guaranteed but I would like to prevent this from happening again, if I can!

 

Thanks guys. As a newbie I appreciate any info or resources, even if it's a hard truth.

i would quarantine all fish for 6-8 weeks with chloroquine phosphate which doesn't kill beneficial bacteria like copper does, hypo will also work but I've had 100% success with CP, in that time frame the ich should go through all of its life cycles and die off in which you can begin adding the fish back, CP is easy to use but there are many ways to treat ich, the important thing here is you setup a qt!

[Mariaface]

Where is everyone getting chloroquine phosphate?!

 

/jealous

 

i would quarantine all fish for 6-8 weeks with chloroquine phosphate which doesn't kill beneficial bacteria like copper does, hypo will also work but I've had 100% success with CP, in that time frame the ich should go through all of its life cycles and die off in which you can begin adding the fish back, CP is easy to use but there are many ways to treat ich, the important thing here is you setup a qt!

[stellarsjay]

i would quarantine all fish for 6-8 weeks with chloroquine phosphate which doesn't kill beneficial bacteria like copper does, hypo will also work but I've had 100% success with CP, in that time frame the ich should go through all of its life cycles and die off in which you can begin adding the fish back, CP is easy to use but there are many ways to treat ich, the important thing here is you setup a qt!

This is great info, thank you! I'm ultimately going to quarantine all 3 fish and get rid of the ich issue altogether (thinking that I likely had ich in my tank the whole time but with no signs... if possible).

 

For the immediate future I would like to try my best to get this little guy to survive, which I'm unsure of at this point. It has been 24 hours since he's flown across Canada to me!! The poor little guy still seems a tad weak and hopefully some time alone and in the QT will give him some life back enough for treatment.

 

Right now I think I'm going to visit every LFS and see where I can pick up some CP or even copper if necessary...

[Tamberav]

I agree with QT ALL fish for 8 weeks and treat with chloroquine phosphate which can be purchased online.

 

http://kmaintl.com/product-category/misc

 

 

Another option I have had success with is the tank transfer method:

 

http://www.reef2reef.com/threads/tank-transfer-method.192655/

[Mariaface]

I agree with QT ALL fish for 8 weeks and treat with chloroquine phosphate which can be purchased online.

 

http://kmaintl.com/product-category/misc

 

 

 

 

Welp. Buying that now. I assume I can store it in an airtight container somewhere..

[Tamberav]

Right now I think I'm going to visit every LFS and see where I can pick up some CP or even copper if necessary...

 

Oh, just fyi, I do not believe CP is sold in stores anywhere. It is a prescription med.

 

I have used cupramine successfully too, its just carrys more risk, be very careful with dosage and get cupramine and a seachem copper test kit if you go copper.

 

 

Welp. Buying that now. I assume I can store it in an airtight container somewhere..

 

Store it out of light.

[stellarsjay]

Where is everyone getting chloroquine phosphate?!

 

/jealous

 

It sounds like a good treatment plan to me! I'm going to look into it.

 

Thanks for your advice Mariaface! You give me hope!! I don't know if I can handle the idea of having ich in my tank, especially if there is something I can do to get rid of the problem totally. Right now I'm focused on the new little guy! Omg, there is nothing cuter than a baby clown. It kills me to see him covered in spots.

 

He seems to have come around since I moved him to the QT this morning. The other fish seem to be in great shape and will transfer them over maybe once this little guy has some strength back.

 

I'm conflicted though... I keep wondering if he came to me a little ill, or what! Like I said, he had a couple spots the moment I saw him come out of his box. It baffles me that he ended up with so many more overnight. You must be right... ich was in my tank :( ugh!!!!!

 

Thanks for taking the time to respond. Now I need to see what's available for meds!

[Mariaface]

You must be right... ich was in my tank :( ugh!!!!!

 

Thanks for taking the time to respond. Now I need to see what's available for meds!

 

 

I might not be right - it's totally possible he's the one that brought it in! But given any non-sterile tank, I'd assume it's there unless I've personally treated/quarantined against it

[stellarsjay]

 

Oh, just fyi, I do not believe CP is sold in stores anywhere. It is a prescription med.

 

I have used cupramine successfully too, its just carrys more risk, be very careful with dosage and get cupramine and a seachem copper test kit if you go copper.

 

 

Store it out of light.

Fantastic -- thank you! I am amazed at how much help I'm getting!! My clowns thank you guys.

 

I will do a search then... I live in Canada and will assume I'll have a harder time getting CP (as is the case with a lot of meds/products). But I will try!

 

Once the new clown looks like he is able to handle the company of a bigger, bossy clown then I'll transfer everyone over to the QT.

 

I just need to make sure I do this right and avoid risk where I still can

[Cencalfishguy56]

http://m.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=chloroquine+phosphate&isNewKw=1&isRefine=true&mfs=KWCLK&acimp=0&_trksid=p2056088.m2428.l1311.R1.TR2.TRC0.Xchloroq&sqp=chloroq

[Cencalfishguy56]

Fantastic -- thank you! I am amazed at how much help I'm getting!! My clowns thank you guys.

 

I will do a search then... I live in Canada and will assume I'll have a harder time getting CP (as is the case with a lot of meds/products). But I will try!

 

Once the new clown looks like he is able to handle the company of a bigger, bossy clown then I'll transfer everyone over to the QT.

 

I just need to make sure I do this right and avoid risk where I still can

try the eBay link

[stellarsjay]

try the eBay link

Thank you!

[stellarsjay]

Mini update: tiny clown ate 4 NLS Thera-A pellets (crushed up) and all the spots came off! ??

 

However! When the light hit him at a certain angle I could see REALLY small white/clear things attached to his body. Could that be the actual parasite? I thought it took a couple of days to go from cyst to adult so I need to do a little more research...

[Mariaface]

Could also be the offspring. Have you read up on the life cycle? Only part of it (the last part) involves being an external parasite, and once it's there it's already an adult.

 

Basically, these are going to come off when they explode and release hundreds back into the water. Treat asap c:

[Cencalfishguy56]

Thank you!

no problem

[Tamberav]

Flukes also tend to look like white spots, some are large but I've also seen small external ones that look close to what ich might look like.

 

 

Can you get a picture?

[stellarsjay]

I'll try my best to get a photo! Perhaps later this evening when he winds down a bit.

 

I've been all around town and there is no Cupramine anywhere, and of course no CP. The only products I'm seeing on the shelves are your Ich-X and other similar ich products.

 

Yikes so we're progressing through the life cycle perhaps! I'm going to need to order products in and the soonest they will get here is Tuesday. I wonder if I should go ahead with hypo and start decreasing salinity. :/ just want this little guy to have some relief.

 

I'll update with a pic! But it'll be hard!!

 

Edit: I do have PraziPro, so I wonder if it's worth dosing that as a first line of defense. Just want to make sure I have a solid diagnosis. Thanks for your help with this guys! I so appreciate the guidance.

[stellarsjay]

Sorry, on mobile! Can I just post an imgur link? I'm going to try:

 

https://imgur.com/a/g9A1E

 

They are awful pics. Straight up. The only reason I think I can see the spots in these photos is because I know they are there in real life... bad photos!

 

So this is what he looks like now. After about 12 noon today he lost the distinct salt grains (some which only lasted less than 12 hours? Some were there before he came to me). You will have to pardon me, I don't know my left from right, but on his *right* side and near his head are where the hard-to-see spots are... they are kind of translucent and only show up when the light hits them and makes them shine or shadow. They really only make his skin look a little uneven and is how I noticed. No signs that I can see of velvet or slime/mucous, or disorders like that.

 

On his left side I see a TEENY spot remaining on his fin. Still nothing like a salt grain in comparison. Could this be "residue" from the nasty critter? Hmm.

 

Otherwise... his skin looks clear? Clearish? The other photos I just try to illustrate that.. but did a poor job. His dorsal fin is a bit scuffed, a result of some tumbling with his bros and sisters I imagine. That hasn't gotten worse.

 

Any insights? Jump into medical treatment asap? I HATE to see any animal suffer so I want to help him as soon as I can but want to make sure I'm confident with the diagnosis! Just keeping up feeding and water quality, which he has dramatically responded to (not saying he is cured, by any means).

 

Can you tell I'm a bit of a helicopter parent? I never thought I would get so attached to these fish.

[Kyl]

If you have Ich there's only two options as noted above: remove all the fish from your tank and let it run fallow for 72 days, or do nothing. From everything I've read all the snake oil in the world is useless for the reef tank, the fish must be treated outside of it or the whole thing is pointless. Foods, ich shields, ich removal, it's all placebo at best. Once ich is in your tank it's only a matter of time for the combination of factors to line up and an outbreak takes hold.

 

The simplest way for your small bioload will be get two 5 gallon buckets, an air pump, airline, some 3-4" pvc elbows and some prime/amquel. Tank transfer method the fish for 12 days to break the ich productive cycle and 'cure' your fish. Throw out the air line between transfers, always use fresh. Dose prime on day 2 to counter any building ammonia. Then grab something like a 10 gallon petco special to act as a QT for the next ~8 weeks, and something like a small aqueon hob filter. You'll have to keep an eye on ammonia and keep with frequent water changes, but it should work out.

 

Prazi won't do anything for the ich, only TTM, CP, copper or hypo will.

 

If it's any consolation, I haven't visibly gotten ich yet but I know the LFS is warning about it due to west coast distributors getting hit more heavily than usual right now. I'm actually in the middle of TTM right now for my new 65 gallon. It's easy, and would be easier if I just did it in 5 gallon buckets rather than 10 gallon glass tanks (pain to clean).

[Tamberav]

I'll try my best to get a photo! Perhaps later this evening when he winds down a bit.

 

I've been all around town and there is no Cupramine anywhere, and of course no CP. The only products I'm seeing on the shelves are your Ich-X and other similar ich products.

 

Yikes so we're progressing through the life cycle perhaps! I'm going to need to order products in and the soonest they will get here is Tuesday. I wonder if I should go ahead with hypo and start decreasing salinity. :/ just want this little guy to have some relief.

 

I'll update with a pic! But it'll be hard!!

 

Edit: I do have PraziPro, so I wonder if it's worth dosing that as a first line of defense. Just want to make sure I have a solid diagnosis. Thanks for your help with this guys! I so appreciate the guidance.

 

I can't tell from your pics but from the description it sounds like ich.

 

You don't want to mix hypo + meds. So choose one or the other. I prazipro every fish I get, its gentle and many fish carry the parasites it gets rid of. You could treat ich first though and prazipro after.

 

He is probably feeling better in the new tank because there are less parasites in the fresh QT tank. Thats how ich is cured with tank transfer method, they never complete their cycle because the fish is moved into a new sterile environment every 3 days and eventually the cycle is broken as more spots fall off.

[fishfreak0114]

I'm treating a flame angel and a talbots damsel for ich right now using the tank transfer method. It seems to be working, and the fish don't seem terribly stressed out. I also dosed prazipro in their tank/bucket for the first 3 transfers in case they had other stuff. They only have one transfer to go before they go into observation, and they have no visible ich left, they haven't for a few days. I'd definitely recommend it, I've tried hypo and fail before. I couldn't find any chloroquine phosphate (I'm in canada too). Hope your little guy does ok

 

This is the link someone gave me for TTM

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2388428

[Cencalfishguy56]

 

I can't tell from your pics but from the description it sounds like ich.

 

You don't want to mix hypo + meds. So choose one or the other. I prazipro every fish I get, its gentle and many fish carry the parasites it gets rid of. You could treat ich first though and prazipro after.

 

He is probably feeling better in the new tank because there are less parasites in the fresh QT tank. Thats how ich is cured with tank transfer method, they never complete their cycle because the fish is moved into a new sterile environment every 3 days and eventually the cycle is broken as more spots fall off.

tank transfer sounds like too much work

[Kyl]

I couldn't find any chloroquine phosphate (I'm in canada too). Hope your little guy does ok

 

This is the link someone gave me for TTM

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2388428

You can get a prescription for CP from a local vet. Just bring along some of the literature of it being used for marine parasite treatment and you should have no problem. Any compounding pharmacy can get you the powder no problem.

 

Cencalfishguy56, on 19 Aug 2016 - 11:20 PM, said:

tank transfer sounds like too much work

It is work, but from all accounts the least stressful method of ich removal / dt prevention for most fish, and doesn't take a month with daily specific level monitoring required (copper/hypo). Granted I did lose a flasher wrasse this morning, but I attribute that to my relatively new exposure to TTM and the fact they're an easy to panic species. The anthias that were with him are eating like pigs and very active.