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Has my tank cycled?


shormovas

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Hello so I need a little help here....

So I decided to do a Fishless cycle in my new 29 gallon Biocube. It has been roughly a week and a half since I started to cycle my tank. The products I used to cycle my tank were Dr. Tim's One and Only Reef and Dr. Tims Ammonia. I followed the Cycling process exactly how stated on Dr. Tim's website! I only added Ammonia 3 times and each time exactly 1 drop of Ammonia per gallon. Dr. Tim's also states that the products used can cycle a tank in less than or about a week. I used a Saltwater API test kit for all my tests. Throughout the Cycling process Ammonia has risen and dropped. Nitrite has always stayed at 0ppm. Nitrate has gone up to roughly 5.0ppm from what I can tell. And the PH dropped to about 7.4 so I did a water change at the end of the first week following Dr. Tim's Fishless Cycle instructions. So currently from what I can tell from my test kit is the following:

PH: 8.0

Ammonia: 0ppm

Nitrite: 0ppm

Nitrate: 5.0ppm

 

The issue is I went to my LFS to double check my water parameters and hopefully get my first fish. When they checked my water parameters they stated that my Ammonia was to high at about a 0.25ppm. I watched the guy test the water and he also used an API saltwater test kit. His test tube did look a tiny tiny bit greener than mine. So he told me to go home and check my test kit maybe it is expired and to maybe buy a more expensive test kit that they supply at the store I believe it was (Red Sea). I asked him if he could do a nitrate test and he said there would be no point since my Ammonia was high. When I went home I checked the test kit it expires in 2021 so there should'nt be an issue with my test kit. I even retested my water and got the same exact results I did the first time. This store seemed very reputable because they only sold Marine fish and corals and they had an amazing selection. The guy did sound like he knew what he was talking about as well. He also gave me further instructions as to let the tank go let it take its course leave it alone and let it get dirty till you start to see algae. By the way my tank has live sand and dry base rock. My rocks did brown a tiny bit since I first had them in the tank. So is my tank cycled or is my LFS wrong????

Here is my Test results just in case I am reading them wrong:

Api test results

Api test results

 

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ReefSafeSolutions

Can your tank process ammonia and nitrite in 24 hours?

 

I used Dr. Tim's as well (only the bacteria) and have used 24 hours as my benchmark. When my tank could process ammonia and nitrite down to zero in 24 hours, I considered it cycled.

 

I still waited a bit to put any fish into the tank and made sure I could get ammonia and nitrite down to zero within 24 hours, a few times.

 

My only beef with the API test kits is how hard it can be to read the colors. When I put them up against the white background, the colors change, even if I pull the tubes off the white just a little bit. Looks to me like you have 0ppm ammonia and nitrite.

 

Not sure I believe the guy when he says to wait until your rocks get algae on them...if you aren't running lights, that won't happen. I haven't had lights for a month and I just put my old light on (had to rescue a fish and wanted to see him swimming around) and I don't have any algae (yet).

 

So, take this all for what it's worth. Just one man's experience!

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Can your tank process ammonia and nitrite in 24 hours?

 

I used Dr. Tim's as well (only the bacteria) and have used 24 hours as my benchmark. When my tank could process ammonia and nitrite down to zero in 24 hours, I considered it cycled.

 

I still waited a bit to put any fish into the tank and made sure I could get ammonia and nitrite down to zero within 24 hours, a few times.

 

My only beef with the API test kits is how hard it can be to read the colors. When I put them up against the white background, the colors change, even if I pull the tubes off the white just a little bit. Looks to me like you have 0ppm ammonia and nitrite.

 

Not sure I believe the guy when he says to wait until your rocks get algae on them...if you aren't running lights, that won't happen. I haven't had lights for a month and I just put my old light on (had to rescue a fish and wanted to see him swimming around) and I don't have any algae (yet).

 

So, take this all for what it's worth. Just one man's experience!

Well Ive had the lights on the past few days no major change or algae growth.....

So what you are telling me is to dose up Dr. Tim's Ammonia (1 drop per gallon) and see if Nitrite and Ammonia get back down to 0ppm in 24 hours?

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Well Ive had the lights on the past few days no major change or algae growth.....

So what you are telling me is to dose up Dr. Tim's Ammonia (1 drop per gallon) and see if Nitrite and Ammonia get back down to 0ppm in 24 hours?

exactly.

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I am surprised you had 0 nitrite throughout the cycle. Usually you'll see some and barely any ammonia with bacteria products. But yes add 2 ppm ammonia and wait 24 hours. You should get a reading of 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite if it is fully cycled. Once it is I would do a nitrate test and see if you need a water change. Below 10ppm is ok. Higher means water change.

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ReefSafeSolutions

Yep, my nitrates were at around 40ppm when my cycle finished. I did a 50% water change to get them down to 20ppm, but I wanted them around there because I have some LPS that have been struggling from my last tank crash. The LPS have done a bit better with more nitrates.

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Always check the results in natural light.

Fluorescent bulbs, leds, and incandescents can alter the colour.

 

I had the same issue while cycling my last 2 tanks. The yellow results still had a green tinge, I waited until it was completely yellow and confirmed with another kit.

 

It is very strange to have no nitrites, usually as ammonia rises and drops the nitrites will rise and drop, as nitrites rise then you usually see nitrates rising.

 

My nitrates got to 20, I'd say most common is 20-40 until a water change is done.

 

I always suggest waiting a week after cycling, add cuc, wait and test, then add a fish after no detectable spikes.

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Always check the results in natural light.

Fluorescent bulbs, leds, and incandescents can alter the colour.

 

I had the same issue while cycling my last 2 tanks. The yellow results still had a green tinge, I waited until it was completely yellow and confirmed with another kit.

 

It is very strange to have no nitrites, usually as ammonia rises and drops the nitrites will rise and drop, as nitrites rise then you usually see nitrates rising.

 

My nitrates got to 20, I'd say most common is 20-40 until a water change is done.

 

I always suggest waiting a week after cycling, add cuc, wait and test, then add a fish after no detectable spikes.

Yea the guy at my LFS was reading the Ammonia test pretty much near Royal Blue LEDs so that could have been a possible reason why it looked a little greener now that I think about it. But anyways 1 more hour till i check my parameters again wish me luck will post the outcome.

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Always check the results in natural light.

Fluorescent bulbs, leds, and incandescents can alter the colour.

 

I had the same issue while cycling my last 2 tanks. The yellow results still had a green tinge, I waited until it was completely yellow and confirmed with another kit.

 

It is very strange to have no nitrites, usually as ammonia rises and drops the nitrites will rise and drop, as nitrites rise then you usually see nitrates rising.

 

My nitrates got to 20, I'd say most common is 20-40 until a water change is done.

 

I always suggest waiting a week after cycling, add cuc, wait and test, then add a fish after no detectable spikes.

 

 

Yep, my nitrates were at around 40ppm when my cycle finished. I did a 50% water change to get them down to 20ppm, but I wanted them around there because I have some LPS that have been struggling from my last tank crash. The LPS have done a bit better with more nitrates.

 

 

I am surprised you had 0 nitrite throughout the cycle. Usually you'll see some and barely any ammonia with bacteria products. But yes add 2 ppm ammonia and wait 24 hours. You should get a reading of 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite if it is fully cycled. Once it is I would do a nitrate test and see if you need a water change. Below 10ppm is ok. Higher means water change.

 

 

exactly.

Okay so it has been 24 hours since I dosed 2ppm Ammoina here are my results where exactly do I go from here? I finally got some Nitrite btw!

PH: Between 8.0-7.8

Ammonia: Between 0ppm and 0.25ppm

Nitrite: Between 0ppm and 0.25ppm

Nitrate: Between 10ppm and 20ppm

Test 2a

Test2b

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I would wait to be honest. No sense in rushing to get a fish. What's another week? I would wait until you see some diatoms on the rock/sand. To me, that's always a sign things are on the right track.

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I would wait to be honest. No sense in rushing to get a fish. What's another week? I would wait until you see some diatoms on the rock/sand. To me, that's always a sign things are on the right track.

My point is that the Ammonia and Nitrite have not hit 0ppm after 24 hours so what do i do now? Nitrates are almost at 20ppm. Do I do a water change? And then keep dosing ammonia when ammonia and nitrate hit 0ppm.... until it happens after 24 hours? Im confused.

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you just wait =P. test again tomorrow night. don't dose ammonia again. i just started cycling a new tank and playing the waiting game too.

 

i think u r near the end of the cycle. maybe just a few more days. note that API ammonia test is notorious for reading 0.25ppm when it is 0ppm. It's the nitrite that I think shouldn't be 0.25ppm.

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you just wait =P. test again tomorrow night. don't dose ammonia again. i just started cycling a new tank and playing the waiting game too.

 

i think u r near the end of the cycle. maybe just a few more days. note that API ammonia test is notorious for reading 0.25ppm when it is 0ppm. It's the nitrite that I think shouldn't be 0.25ppm.

Okay i'll keep you updated thanks a dozen ninjamyst you have been a BIG help : ) !!!!

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Seabass this is primarily what I mean about API

 

What the masses get with it isn't consistent but I know your pics looked great. off one sample ten people will get ranging interpretations

 

It's not that uncured rock is a home run for zero ammonia, it's that not many are sure of the reading at low levels, next steps become unsure, tiny amounts of ammonia added are being nitrified by the sand and suspended added bac most likely (nitrate) yet supposedly off that tiny drop of ammonia a persistent .25 remains (seemingly)

 

Heart of my issue even though I still haven't tested mine, it's going off what the masses post.

 

Your posts show clear accurate API and whatever earns that consistency is what the masses need to know. Above we needed special lighting etc, that needs to be in API directions or something or they should change the titrants to show something more distinguishable

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Sure lighting can make a difference. The API instructions indicate reading the results in a well lit area, against a white background (although they should add that it should be a natural light spectrum).

However, the confusion almost always comes from a new tank (where there are still trace amounts of ammonia present). To me, knowing if the result is actually 0.15 or 0.25ppm isn't as important as knowing if there is a positive result for ammonia (which, I feel, the API kit does pretty well). When using the kit on a healthy, mature reef tank, I have not seen people report that their API's tests show 0.25ppm of ammonia.

Some people try to use newly mixed saltwater as a reference; but ammonia is a contaminate of magnesium chloride and calcium chloride used in salt mixes. Almost all newly mixed saltwater will contain some ammonia. Therefore, using it as a reference for 0.00ppm is flawed.

In this particular case, I feel there is still trace amounts of ammonia. Just because Dr.Tim's instructions indicate one week to cycle an aquarium, doesn't mean that this is true in all cases. Many variables can potentially affect this timeline.

The second set of pics (24 hours after dosing) clearly shows that ammonia is still present. The fact that nitrate is also present indicates that there is nitrifying bacteria converting ammonia into nitrite, and nitrite into nitrate. It just isn't established enough to process all of the ammonia in 24 hours.

I suspect that if shormovas waited another week without dosing more ammonia, the test would likely indicate no ammonia. This would be fine if adding livestock very slowly. However, the goal of dosing ammonia, is to build up the bacteria populations, so that a larger initial bio-load can be added. I think a little more time is called for here.

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due to the known abilities of live sand and the nitrate, I don't find examples where nitrate is produced and trace ammonia remains for days considering the surface area and power of live sand even in newer setups... these were tiny fractional ammonia additions

The duration is what catches my eye

Able to produce nitrate but can't rectify all trace ammonia for days? Leaves me skeptical there's something missing. Now if 4 ppm was dosed that's different, and the leftovers wouldn't always hover at .25 either it would seem. Biologically the nitrate implies a command and turnaround ability for ammonia and if there was some it's phenomenal in every single post it's always .25, that's the recurring number. not ever a .75 for example

user interpretation can explain some of the bio gaps in these low level readings very likely

For a change of pace we need an API rep here
Habib/salifert is available and we don't see this recurring theme with that setup, I wish API would show up for some questions as well

it would be neat to see any verification tests here...Red Sea ammonia or a badge alert ammonia etc especially salifert

A couple posters here w mature tanks remarking on it just to show there are some but your pics didn't indicate that agreed.
http://www.fishlore.com/fishforum/aquarium-water/148253-ammonia-always-25-ppm.html

I could easily vote user subjectivity for these differences and not the kit as your findings/pics help that aspect. Change the titrants API to be distinctive or make a true low level kit prob solved maybe and post themes on .25 clear up

 

 

we know real seawater has constant trace ammonia, if API is very sensitive maybe its merely reading inconsequential traces as .25 for those who don't always get a stark yellow in aged setups. all the times we talk about no free ammonia in our reef cycle threads its really meaning at the no consequence trace level

 

its also possible old batch material made those readings in the 2000s and things have changed to be more sensitive...that's the kind of info an API rep would have handy

 

in this thread it would be neat to see readings from a non reef sample, say some Dasani drinking water for ex

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Marc.The.Shark

Just another experience with the API test kits...

I started my new tank a week ago Saturday (so 1.5 weeks) with BioSpira & Dr. Tims ammonium chloride. I had the big bottle of BioSpira and added roughly 75% to my 20gal with 10gal sump. Started with 70% Reefcleaners dry Rock & 30% old dry rock that I had from previous tanks (dry for 5+ years), plus dry sand (Meso Flakes). I added an ammonia badge and dosed ammonia 1 drop per gallon every 2 days (22-25 drops). Ammonia badge never showed anything = must be defective:( but API kit (approx 2 years old) showed the ammonia processing & I could clearly see the green vs yellow. After one week (Sunday), I was processing down to zero in 24hrs & had some diatoms on the sand bed. Ran lights the whole time on regular schedule. IMO, I can see the yellow vs green. If I see any tint of green, then dose ammonia again. Last night I threw in a hermit & snail from my current tank. Gonna let it marinate for a while like it is, but confident that the API kit gave me decent results, tested Nitrites/Nitrates after I showed zero ammonia after the 24hr period & had 0 Trites & 10-20 Trates. I have a low range Salifert Nitrate kit, just haven't pulled it out yet.

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IMO, the OP just has to give it some more time.

 

due to the known abilities of live sand and the nitrate, I don't find examples where nitrate is produced and trace ammonia remains for days considering the surface area and power of live sand even in newer setups... these were tiny fractional ammonia additions

The duration is what catches my eye

Able to produce nitrate but can't rectify all trace ammonia for days? Leaves me skeptical there's something missing. Now if 4 ppm was dosed that's different, and the leftovers wouldn't always hover at .25 either it would seem. Biologically the nitrate implies a command and turnaround ability for ammonia and if there was some it's phenomenal in every single post it's always .25, that's the recurring number. not ever a .75 for example
user interpretation can explain some of the bio gaps in these low level readings very likely

I have documented a fairly typical cycle in Part 1: Water Changes During the Cycle and Part 2: Water Changes During the Cycle. Ammonia isn't reduced lineally, it's more of a bell curve. In a cycle which takes a month, it would be fairly common for ammonia to appear to hover at just above detectable levels for up to a week, or even longer. However, it will more quickly pass through levels like 0.5ppm.

For a change of pace we need an API rep here

Didn't I tell you, I'm one of their reps.

 

Haha, nah, but maybe I should be.

it would be neat to see any verification tests here...Red Sea ammonia or a badge alert ammonia etc especially salifert

In the two part series about Water Changes During the Cycle, I've performed numerous tests with API versus Seachem (which I believe to be even more accurate than Salifert).

0727a.jpg

 

0727b.jpg

 

A couple posters here w mature tanks remarking on it just to show there are some but your pics didn't indicate that agreed.
http://www.fishlore.com/fishforum/aquarium-water/148253-ammonia-always-25-ppm.html

So in this example, the OP was losing fish for the last two months, the remaining fish wasn't eating, they disrupted their tank's substrate, and they were using tap water which tested positive for ammonia. Sure, at the end, someone else chimed in that claimed their tank was cycled and they also got positive ammonia results (however, no details or pics were provided).

 

Before giving any credence to this idea, I'd like to see instances of a healthy, mature reef tank showing 0.25ppm ammonia with API's kit. To my knowledge, this has not been documented. However, I have documented the contrary on several occasions.

we know real seawater has constant trace ammonia, if API is very sensitive maybe its merely reading inconsequential traces as .25 for those who don't always get a stark yellow in aged setups. all the times we talk about no free ammonia in our reef cycle threads its really meaning at the no consequence trace level

Natural seawater contains a variable amount of ammonia typically below 0.1ppm. To some extent, this variation in ammonia levels would also be present in our reef tanks (again, below 0.1ppm). However, I'm convinced, by testing several different mature reef tanks, that API will consistently still show a relatively close match to 0ppm (which shouldn't be confused as 0.25ppm).

 

its also possible old batch material made those readings in the 2000s and things have changed...

We've discussed this possibility. There was that thread on TropicalReefKeeping which claimed that several years ago, there was a problem with their reagents which made even distilled water read 0.25ppm. However, I have not seen where this has been widely reported, and is not consistent with my experience with these test kits since 2003.

 

in this thread it would be neat to see readings from a non reef sample, say some Dasani drinking water for ex

I've done this.

070116b.jpg

 


Just another experience with the API test kits...
I started my new tank a week ago Saturday (so 1.5 weeks) with BioSpira & Dr. Tims ammonium chloride. I had the big bottle of BioSpira and added roughly 75% to my 20gal with 10gal sump. Started with 70% Reefcleaners dry Rock & 30% old dry rock that I had from previous tanks (dry for 5+ years), plus dry sand (Meso Flakes). I added an ammonia badge and dosed ammonia 1 drop per gallon every 2 days (22-25 drops). Ammonia badge never showed anything = must be defective:( but API kit (approx 2 years old) showed the ammonia processing & I could clearly see the green vs yellow.

I don't believe the badge was defective. Ammonium chloride is part of total ammonia, but it's not free ammonia (which is the only form of ammonia that the badge tests for).

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The thread i linked above had people saying they registered it in a healthy reef tank (perception but doesn't mean accurate) one saying the yellow was accurate, so do other threads. Only that inconsistency remains as the hurdle to them being reliable low level. Ten testers need at least 8 or 9 reliable outcomes to change these search results and I do believe your method are controlled well enough to be the smaller margin and consistently.

 

We still cannot know about old vs new formulas etc to manage old search results against your outcomes

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The thread i linked above had people saying they registered it in a healthy reef tank

I'm not sure if I'm reading the same thread. Here's a summary of that thread:

 

Priya (the OP) had a tank that was half a year old. The OP claimed ammonia stayed at 0.25ppm. Data listed:

  • The platy wasn't eating well
  • Just did 70% water change
  • Fish had been dying over the last two months
  • Took out all of the substrate and rinsed it in hot water
  • Regularly stirred up the substrate
  • Used tap water which tested positive for ammonia

Mamajin claimed to have had a similar issue (and refers to a generic Google search which claims others have had this same condition). Switched to Salifert and was happier with the results. No data about the tank or pics were provided.

Krysty used tap water with ammonia in it too. Wanted to get a different test kit and add more bio-media.

Fishdude846 claimed their tank was cycled and not overstocked. Claimed to get 0.25ppm on an API test kit but just dismissed the results because the fish didn't appear to be stressed. No more information (about the age of the tank, filtration, water source, use of a water conditioner, etc) or pics were provided.

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Marc.The.Shark

I don't believe the badge was defective. Ammonium chloride is part of total ammonia, but it's not free ammonia (which is the only form of ammonia that the badge tests for).

Ahh, makes sense. I've never used one before & didn't know. I'll hold on to it then for my QT tank. Is it ok if it dries out, cause I took it out thinking it was bad?

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It is normal for the dry sensor to have a greenish hue. It may take up to a few days for a dry sensor to equilibrate with the water.

They say it lasts up to a year. I'm not sure how using it and then letting it dry would affect it. I assume that it's fine.

 

 

Edit: Marc, just reading further on down:

Sensitivity improves with age, provided the unit is not allowed to dry out, however, drying does not permanently impair the unit. For maximum sensitivity, the unit should be read under natural daylight or daylight simulating light. Red enhancing light minimizes green and blue hues, decreasing the apparent sensitivity of the unit. The response of the unit may be checked by holding it briefly over the mouth of an ammonia bottle: color should develop rapidly.

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it was fishdudes post, at the bottom

 

My tank is cycled and not overstocked and I always get a reading of .25 with the API test kit. I don't worry about it. The fish do not appear stressed out at all.

 

do agree its not a landslide of those type posts there still were the times we didn't agree on live rock transfers/persistent low level ammonia with no bioload increase, so in the end a little yin and yang is just good or stagnancy comes.

 

I have skepticism about enduring .25 in the face of cycled materials for sure, and on the uncycled ones they almost always use bagged wet sand with a complement already=these seem discounted in many threads and the low level reading assumed correct without knowing how the colors were referenced in these threads. many keepers might not be in ideal living room lighting

 

 

It would be neat to see a 2016 thread of 3-4 ammonia kits ran on a lab verified sample

 

and the same set repeated in untuned lighting so people can see the diffs among tests/titrants etc

 

 

Your refute below directly discounts these search results

 

API ammonia always shows .25

 

There's scores

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f11/25ppm-ammonia-for-weeks-help-219594.html

 

It's simply possible to find people who didn't post your findings (not everyone below was ammonia free, the post is still there anyway like the other one)

 

It's agreed that perception, lighting and subjectivity are at play and that allows variance.

 

This is why me owning an API kit matters not to our science debate:

 

my own results for low level ammonia don't matter, it's that if ten posters are repeating a cycling thread it's not worth having that variation possibility to add confusion. Our cycling threads are absolutely producing ready tanks and we didn't need API, so it's imperfections in the threads aren't needed

 

The best test ever would be a blind sample test

 

Way more than testing my own tank and getting a zero I could see, which still wouldn't corral a group of ten, I'd like to have a known sample that is secretly lab set but undisclosed and mail it to five API salifert Red Sea et al testers and have them all post levels to see

to be sold on how a group reports

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Brandon, it just seems strange that you have never tried an API ammonia test kit but continue to question the validity of its results. I've posted numerous pictures with ammonia outcomes which were undetectable, I've tested RO/DI water, I've compared API to Seachem (at various ammonia levels), I've performed the tests with varying sample sizes and documented the results with pics and shared them online.

Fishdude846 had a tank of unspecified age (we just know that he thought the tank was cycled), an unknown water source (it could have been tap treated with chloramine, which is a combination of ammonia and chlorine), it was unknown if he used water conditioners like Prime (which would render ammonia non-toxic but still register on a salicylate based kit as total ammonia), and we have no idea what type of biological filtration he ran (or his tank maintenance). You could also figure that if he didn't believe the test results, that he would stop testing. I wonder just how many tests were run before abandoning testing.

However, I haven't seen any healthy, mature reef tanks, using RO/DI water, consistently read 0.25ppm of ammonia. To the contrary, healthy mature tanks will almost always nearly match the 0ppm mark on the API color chart. All the examples that I can find which support continued 0.25ppm readings, are newer tanks that could conceivably still have trace ammonia of 0.1ppm or higher. Please find me an example of a healthy, mature reef tank consistently showing 0.25ppm of ammonia, so we can try to determine why this might be so.

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