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help me decide witch way to baddle my GHA in macro tank..


devaji108

what would you do and why?  

6 members have voted

  1. 1. best approch in dealing GHA in macros tank?

    • ATS
      1
    • HOB skimmer
      1
    • GFO reactor
      3
    • filter media to AC50
      3
    • carbon dosing
      1


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Hey guys/gals,

 

I am having a GHA problem in my macro tank. lets talk about possible ways to get it under control.

 

tank info:

20L

10lb LR

aqua max nemo light

AC 50 with some bio meida and carbon

2 small fish

1x canary blenny and 1X colwn goby

 

tank still pretty new around 2 months.

 

my build thread can be found here:

http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/374304-20l-macro-build-thread/

 

so a lot of my macros that i got from stella are getting cover in HA.

so my challenge is this, reduce nutrients so GHA will not grow but keep it high enough to support macros.

 

my thinking is...might not be correct here but once PO4 no3 are down the macros will out compete the HA?

 

I am starting to do 22% 2X month. plus manual removal

 

so my options are to help get in under control and maintain are the fallowing:

1. add an upflow ATS. the one i have on my 90 is doing pretty good.

2. add a HOB skimmer something like a aqua C or something.

3. a TLF reactor with GFO

4. just add GFO to my AC50 filter.

5. carbon dosing dont think this will work on its own but could combine with a skimmer? or perhaps a day or two before water change so it can bind then be removed. more research would need to be done on this option.

 

 

so there you have my problem and possible solutions.

 

so what ya all think?

 

 

 

 

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It puzzles me you got that much GHA so quickly, especially with the macros and small fish bioload. Did you maybe overfeed trying to get the fish to eat?

 

My 75g has a 20g display fuge, I use a skimmer and a very small amount of Brightwell XPORT-PO4. The parameters are 0.02-0.03 for PO4 and 1 for nitrate. The macros still grow very fast, especially the red grape so I am guessing there is still plenty they utilize.

 

After I moved my tanks, I had a mini cycle which caused a GHA bloom, PO4 then was 0.17 and nitrate 0. I manually removed the GHA and added the XPORT and all has been well since.

 

Basically I would manually remove as much as possible and then use something to get your parameters under control. The reason I say manual removal is you may starve the macro first before the GHA if you leave the GHA since it is so well established.

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I am surprised by the GHA as well. Can you take out the macros it is on and scrub/remove the gha? Or maybe just trim back the macros with gha. I've dealt with a bit here and there if I overfeed consistently but it only ever grows on the outflow so I just pull it out.

 

What are your nitrate and phosphate levels? I agree with tam - you want to keep some nutrients but not so high that you get the gha.

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CronicReefer

I'm not sure what type of macros you keep (mine are all green varieties) but mine survive just fine with zero detectable phosphates. I've noticed iron dosing and elevated magnesium levels seem to help a lot with my macros, I also plant my macros in miracle mud. I think the best way to keep GHA under control is by removing dissolved organics from the water. Even with my phosphates at zero it grows just fine but I've noticed it will only grow in places where organics build up, somewhere it has a direct food source to pull from. Heavy skimming seems to have kept all the nuisance algae under control in my new tank while the macros grow just fine. I can also say I have seen GHA growing on my macro algae when it was dying (fading white) but when it is healthy and growing it has never done this.

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I'm not sure what type of macros you keep (mine are all green varieties) but mine survive just fine with zero detectable phosphates. I've noticed iron dosing and elevated magnesium levels seem to help a lot with my macros, I also plant my macros in miracle mud. I think the best way to keep GHA under control is by removing dissolved organics from the water. Even with my phosphates at zero it grows just fine but I've noticed it will only grow in places where organics build up, somewhere it has a direct food source to pull from. Heavy skimming seems to have kept all the nuisance algae under control in my new tank while the macros grow just fine. I can also say I have seen GHA growing on my macro algae when it was dying (fading white) but when it is healthy and growing it has never done this.

Well, your macros are using phosphates which is why they're reading 0. They definitely don't thrive without some phosphates and nitrates to use up but yes, you don't want to overdo it. I actually dump skimmate into my macro tank and generally my phosphates are nearly undectable and nitrates always around 2. I've actually started dosing both as skimmate definitely stinks up the room for a good hour :lol:

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wired my post did well not post..

but yes my outbreak is from taking to long to get a CUC and fish not eating form feeding.

 

I did a 23% water change today and pulled as much as I could out. tested my No3 there where around 10ppm I was expecting a lot more.

I will do another WC in 10 days or so...

 

that said I am still thinking of the above options.

not sure what I will end up doing tho...

 

could just add some chemi pure and GFO to the AC50 dont really have much in there anyway...that could help absorb some the po4 no3

then there is the idea to sumble some GFO in a HOB reactor that could work aswel

 

so would a skimmer

or the ATS

 

I guess at this point it s all about deciding if I what to go chemical biological or mechanical.

I dont for see what ever I do as something I will run all the time but more of a get things in balance then only use when needed...

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514fdf80c757d9fcf074df218068d8d7.jpg

Did I miss where you posted the phosphate level? I realize that the macros, hair algae, and GFO (looks like some cyano too) will be utilizing it; but I'd still check it with a low range phosphate test kit.

 

It's possible that the macros which bleached, released organics and nutrients into your tank. Any possibility that the rock could also be leaching phosphate?

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Just posted on your build. Agree with seabass (as per usual :D ) - need to know phosphate levels. It could be that you're still dealing with excess nutrients from die off from the live rock. Also, it takes a bit for macros to get established. They don't always thrive in a new system from my experience due to the fluctuating parameters. Since they take time to establish, I would bet the gha had time to really get established.

Also, if you're considering carbon dosing, I think you'll definitely need a skimmer. Otherwise you'll get an overpopulation of bacteria that isn't Getting skimmed out for nutrient export.

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i'll test phos. today just gota learn how to just my hanna checker :P

 

it is poss. that the rock i leaching but most likley it was 100% my fault trying to get the fish to eat.

 

no cyno just lots of GHA. tank does look beter after the WC and removal.

 

yeah I agree stella I would need a skimmer if doing carbon dosing. but always was wondering if one could dose a day or 2 before doing a WC let the carbon bond to the No3 & Po4 then remove with a WC? I wound if that would even work and if so how effective that would be?? prob. not gonna try it with out lots of research but it is a curiosity...

 

I think the easiest way would be to add a skimmer and continue bi weekly WC.

I really like the idea of ATS too. as I am a fan of them. if I can figure out a way to add it to my AC50 I will do that..

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i'll test phos. today just gota learn how to just my hanna checker

How to add powdered reagent:

 

How to use the Hanna ULR Phosphorus Checker:

 

but always was wondering if one could dose a day or 2 before doing a WC let the carbon bond to the No3 & Po4 then remove with a WC? I wound if that would even work and if so how effective that would be?? prob. not gonna try it with out lots of research but it is a curiosity...

Are you talking about dosing nitrate and phosphate? Iron? Carbon dosing wouldn't work like that; you have to establish a routine (or use bio-pellets) with a skimmer. Plus, I just think that carbon dosing seems counter intuitive to what you are trying to accomplish. In the long run, I don't even think that a protein skimmer is the single best option for your long term goals.

 

Out of your listed options, I'd get an inTank media basket for your AC50 and run floss plus whichever chemical media you choose. Phosguard with activated carbon, if you are trying to clear the water, adsorb organics, and bring down phosphate. Chemipure Elite and Purigen if you just want some general chemical media. Or maybe just some activated carbon in a media bag to clear yellowing. Of course you could adjust the media per your tank's needs.

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Cencalfishguy56

i'll test phos. today just gota learn how to just my hanna checker :P

 

it is poss. that the rock i leaching but most likley it was 100% my fault trying to get the fish to eat.

 

no cyno just lots of GHA. tank does look beter after the WC and removal.

 

yeah I agree stella I would need a skimmer if doing carbon dosing. but always was wondering if one could dose a day or 2 before doing a WC let the carbon bond to the No3 & Po4 then remove with a WC? I wound if that would even work and if so how effective that would be?? prob. not gonna try it with out lots of research but it is a curiosity...

 

I think the easiest way would be to add a skimmer and continue bi weekly WC.

I really like the idea of ATS too. as I am a fan of them. if I can figure out a way to add it to my AC50 I will do that..

i had gha all in my sump when I added macros but through Manual removal and my caulerpa it slowly was depleted and was non existent after a month I'd say
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I would personally use PO4 remover and water changes if you are trying to decide which route to go. The Xport stuff seems to work well in a media bag.

 

 

I have used carbon dosing before, even on a macro tank, it worked well so I could overfeed gross amounts of food but otherwise I think there are easier ways to control levels on a nano.

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that for the videos seabass! I have been meaning to learn that for a few weeks now :)

 

yeah its tricky right trying to get the HA out but keep the macros alive and healthy.

 

ah that makes since about carbon dosing needing a routine. I rememebr reading that now a while back..ok so that is OUT yay progress.

 

the 3 I am between are:

~ATS this would require in tank space or get a HOB fuge then do one. not a bad idea. or just do an upflow in take for a few months.

this is more inline with my vision of the tank. more biological.

 

~ skimmer. something like aquca C remora. not to many HOB skimmer chooses these days. was thinking after seeing results only skimmers during the day.

 

~chemical media was looking in to that last night. I have never ran a tank with it ( only skimmers in bio. ) do I really need the basket? would I not just bag it and ad it to the AC50?

 

I am ok running any of these. maybe I should start out with chemical that along with WC and removel if that does not help go the skimmer and or ATS.

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chemical media was looking in to that last night. I have never ran a tank with it ( only skimmers in bio. ) do I really need the basket? would I not just bag it and ad it to the AC50?

You don't need a media basket, but it sure is nice (and I recommend it). It allows you to run filter floss (to keep the media clean and unclogged), and it gives you a place to efficiently run bags of chemical media.

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You don't need a media basket, but it sure is nice (and I recommend it). It allows you to run filter floss (to keep the media clean and unclogged), and it gives you a place to efficiently run bags of chemical media.

 

Ok that makes since.

just thinking in terms of $$ and efficiency here. by the time I get the media basket, floss and 2 types of media its about the same price of a good used skimmer.

 

never using chemical filtration before. is there literature out there comparing it to skimming?

I know it works ppl do you it will good results but wondering on the comparison of the level of PO4 No3 removal.

 

googling now...

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Protein skimmers don't directly remove either nitrate or phosphate. They remove dissolved organic compounds before they get broken down into nitrate. Activated carbon adsorbs organic compounds, also meds, odors, and yellowing of the water.

 

Protein skimmers don't remove inorganic phosphate from the water. You can do this via carbon dosing (where bacteria uptakes nitrate and some phosphate, and is exported via a strong protein skimmer). GFO (which binds phosphate to the media) is another method; however, a GFO reactor is normally recommended. Phosguard is a product that performs well in a power filter (and would be my choice for removing phosphate using an AC50).

 

I've read that some people even dose skimmate into macro tanks. I'm not sure about this process (as it's introducing a bunch of organics, and I think I'd rather dose straight nitrate and potentially phosphate). However, this makes me wonder if a protein skimmer would be the best use of your funds.

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Ok guys I tested my po4 with the ULR 736 hanna checker this is what I got.

 

28 PPB so 28x 3.066 / 1000 =0.085848.

 

so less than 1 PPM po4 not bad yeah?

i tested twice to make sure. 1st time I got 22 but I did not hold down the button to get the 3 min timer. so I tested again and got 28 with in the +/- 5 range. so I am going with the highest.

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Protein skimmers don't directly remove either nitrate or phosphate. They remove dissolved organic compounds before they get broken down into nitrate. Activated carbon adsorbs organic compounds, also meds, odors, and yellowing of the water.

 

Protein skimmers don't remove inorganic phosphate from the water. You can do this via carbon dosing (where bacteria uptakes nitrate and some phosphate, and is exported via a strong protein skimmer). GFO (which binds phosphate to the media) is another method; however, a GFO reactor is normally recommended. Phosguard is a product that performs well in a power filter (and would be my choice for removing phosphate using an AC50).

 

I've read that some people even dose skimmate into macro tanks. I'm not sure about this process (as it's introducing a bunch of organics, and I think I'd rather dose straight nitrate and potentially phosphate). However, this makes me wonder if a protein skimmer would be the best use of your funds.

 

yeah before I got my 12 macros from stella i dosed a bit of skimmate so they would have some thing to feed on. just a cpl drops. all was going great untill I got the fish that would not eat. so I overfed...I thought my prob. would be not enough po4 no3 to keep all the macros.

 

the GHA happened fast. welcome to nanaos I guess eh..

 

I guess I could do both the skimmer and media..

 

testing my no3 again after the WC. before it was above 5 not quite 10 on the API. so we went with 10. ( always error the the high side with them.)

 

guessing it should be around 5 ppm no3

and less than 1ppm po4 that not bad at all.

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OK n03 test is done.

 

almost zero. as I error in the high side I am going to say 1 maybe 2

 

be interesting to see what its at in a few days.

 

so everything is in my target range.

less the 5 ppm no3 and less the 1PPM but more then .5ppm on the po4 for a macro tank that should be doing good.

 

I like the skimmer idea as I would be easy to turn on off to keep in check. if things climb turn it on when then fall to low turn it off..

with the filter media I fear then might take to much? how to I get some but not to much with it. never using it I am not sure..

 

so that where I am at. if any one has any input I am all hears.

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I'm not sure what the target phosphate range should be in a macro tank. Stella, or anyone else, please jump in here. However, for a typical reef tank, I recommend that it remain detectable, but at or below 0.03 ppm (or 10 ppb of phosphorus).

 

Now this is without any algae (or cyano) blooms, which will utilize the inorganic phosphate in the water column (usually making the test read much lower than it would otherwise). To be honest, I'm surprised your tank is showing this much phosphorus.

 

Chemical media, like Phosguard is always to be used with testing. Use less than half of the recommended amount and monitor the phosphate level. When it stops going down, replace the media. When you achieve the desired level, remove it (and just run activated carbon).

 

Phosphate is an important nutrient in a reef aquarium too. You don't want it to become undetectable, because the symbiotic algae in coral utilizes it to make energy. It might be even more important to a macro tank (or display fudge).

 

Sure you can run a skimmer if you want to, but you can't control the phosphate level with it. You will need another method in addition to it (as it is only removing dissolved organic compounds).

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My macro grows fine under the same ranges we keep a typical reef around 0.02. Po4 under 1 seems low but keep in mind .08 is four times higher (math?) than you typically want.

 

Honestly the first thing I would probably try if it were my tank is a very large water change and manual removal and some deep cleaning of the sandbed/basting the rocks.

 

When you start talking about doing media + skimmers, ect. I think you are throwing too much at this macro tank and it may complicate things more. It really shouldn't need all that stuff and will probably do better without it once stuff is in balance.

 

Ok guys I tested my po4 with the ULR 736 hanna checker this is what I got.

 

28 PPB so 28x 3.066 / 1000 =0.085848.

 

so less than 1 PPM po4 not bad yeah?

i tested twice to make sure. 1st time I got 22 but I did not hold down the button to get the 3 min timer. so I tested again and got 28 with in the +/- 5 range. so I am going with the highest.

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ah OK I did not realize .08 is 4X the amount we want. getting down the PO4 is in order then.

 

yeah after my last 22-24% WC the NO3 went from around 10 to 1 to 2. tanks does look alot better but I have yet to feed too.

I agree I do think running both skimmer and media would be to much for the tank.

 

I will continue to do 4ish gallon WC about 22% bi weekly + manual removal.

I think going chemical would be the easiest to control like subsea said makes since. i'll test once a week for po4 and adjust accordingly.

 

Ok now to decide if the intank media basket is worth the price and what media to use.

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Ok now to decide if the intank media basket is worth the price...

Yep. You can't run media like this without it.

IMG_2775.jpg

The floss keeps the two types of media clean and more effective for longer.

 

... and what media to use.

I'd use:

You could even combine the Phosguard and carbon (or use SeaGel) in one bag, and use another media (like Purigen) in the other chamber. InTank recommends Chemipure elite and Purigen; however, that won't provide much phosphate control.

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oh BTW I found the search feature...YAY. only took months to find it. oh great now i can spend even more time on reef forums. :/

always wondered why NR did not have one. turns out they do!

 

OK back to the discussion...

forgive me for asking such noob questions. but this whole chemical media concept if very new. in 10 years of off and on reefing I have yet to dabble in it.

ok disclaimer stated...

 

would a phosban 150 reactor be a better choice? probably way over thinking this. but could mount in on back of tank and have a small PH moving water through it. for media I still can use the same stuff right. when it gets in control would be easy to add to my main DT..

 

just a thought as there seams to be lots of used reactors around and they seem more versatile.

 

like i said prob. way over thinking this. I just like to get behind and understand why I am doing what i am doing. :D

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hmm another thought I am having is..I plan to keep sponges or at least give it a shot. another reason I dont want the water supper clean, as they feed on DOC . so wondering if the filter floss would be to much?

I guess I ,ll have to play around and see.

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