It's boring around here. Let's talk about something fun

[evilc66]

Man, it's been slow around here on NR, especially in my favorite little hangout, the lighting forum.

 

So let's shake it up a bit. Let's get some discussion going.

 

How would you like to see the current state of reef tank lighting evolve? Different light sources? Changes in the level and method of control? Form factor? Materials? Let's see where this takes us.

[gus6464]

Not much new lighting stuff happening. Although people are rambling that MACNA will have new Radions apparently. I made a joke about ecotech going HD like AI but some are saying that might actually be a possibility. One thing is for sure that they are not going to fix their spread problem by getting rid of their garbage optic discs.

[Rural]

How would you like to see the current state of reef tank lighting evolve?

I would like to see the science of the Phillips squad applied to the aquarium-centric companies. the testing and such. also I would of course like to see these people carrying products at lower costs, it seems when new stuff/leds/boards/lenses/components comes out they only sell the newer stuff at an even higher price. I would also like if companies ran test tanks and published data. Another thing, what about miniature track mounted lights that move across the tank to address LED shadowing issues? evil, I know you could make me one out of a k'nex kit or something? so after all this rambling: lower-priced track-mounted motorized improved and proven leds would be AWESOME.

 

Different light sources?

I only have experience with leds. Maybe on larger builds I would with other sources. I think the cost/benefit ratio is better on larger tanks?

 

Changes in the level and method of control?

using only ecotechs site, I have no major complaints, but at times it is not "user-friendly". if I remember right, doesn't that phrase upset you?

 

Form factor?

I do like the sleeker looks of the lights, even the ATI and such look stylishly better. never cared for hanging kits, the newer aftermarket moutning options for leds is ok, could use some more options, but I imagin almost anyone who knows a guy with a cnc could get one made for a price to look however they want.

 

Materials?

as above, seems to be getting more costly.

 

Let's see where this takes us.

well, there went half my lunch break....

 

Evil: where do you see the LED lighting industry in 5 years? if someone was to be planning a 200-800+ gallon system would you favor leds? and what is currently the thing that upsets you the most about the lighting industry?

[William]

OLEDs would be interesting. I think multichip LEDs could be utilized more often to produce a more even spread. But mainly I think assessing the shadowing issue will be the biggest step forward.

[evilc66]

Not much new lighting stuff happening. Although people are rambling that MACNA will have new Radions apparently. I made a joke about ecotech going HD like AI but some are saying that might actually be a possibility. One thing is for sure that they are not going to fix their spread problem by getting rid of their garbage optic discs.

 

True, but there aren't many other options for increasing spread other than adding more arrays and spreading them out over a longer distance. But that's exactly what you do when you use multiple units.

 

How would you like to see the current state of reef tank lighting evolve?

I would like to see the science of the Phillips squad applied to the aquarium-centric companies. the testing and such. also I would of course like to see these people carrying products at lower costs, it seems when new stuff/leds/boards/lenses/components comes out they only sell the newer stuff at an even higher price. I would also like if companies ran test tanks and published data. Another thing, what about miniature track mounted lights that move across the tank to address LED shadowing issues? evil, I know you could make me one out of a k'nex kit or something? so after all this rambling: lower-priced track-mounted motorized improved and proven leds would be AWESOME.

It would be nice to see other companies do more testing like that, but it is quite costly and time consuming. A company like Philips certainly has the resources to be able to do in depth studies like that, but I think it's out of the realm of most "aquarium" lighting companies, save for some of the big ones. At that point, do you ignore the little guys that may have a great product, but no data to support their product (like Nano Box Reef)?

 

Different light sources?

I only have experience with leds. Maybe on larger builds I would with other sources. I think the cost/benefit ratio is better on larger tanks?

Large tanks are certainly hard to light with LEDs, and aren't the most cost effective in terms of up front costs. It would be nice to see plasma get a little more love in this market.

 

Changes in the level and method of control?

using only ecotechs site, I have no major complaints, but at times it is not "user-friendly". if I remember right, doesn't that phrase upset you?

That doesn't upset me in the way you think. Honestly, I think everyone should be upset if a controls interface is not "user friendly". In this day and age, a decent user interface shouldn't be hard to implement, and a bad one will absolutely kill a product dead in the water.

 

Form factor?

I do like the sleeker looks of the lights, even the ATI and such look stylishly better. never cared for hanging kits, the newer aftermarket moutning options for leds is ok, could use some more options, but I imagin almost anyone who knows a guy with a cnc could get one made for a price to look however they want.

Hanging kits do serve a purpose, but, it's not for everyone. Sure, anyone could get something made, but at what cost. By form factor though, I was getting at the shape and the function of the fixture itself, not how it mounts. Many companies are racing to get the skinniest fixture possible, which is cool, but is there a cost associated with going that thin? What about going vertical? Round? Oblong? There's a ton of options out there for pleasing-to-the-eye shapes for fixtures, and some of them may also have optical benefits.

 

Materials?

as above, seems to be getting more costly.

Material costs are going down. A lot. This is pretty evident with the cost of LEDs in volume right now. The cost of these fixtures has nothing to do with materials (to a degree), and more to do with intellectual property. It gets back to the user interface really (and the underlying software that makes it all run, on the PC and on the fixture). That's what you are paying for. You are paying for someone to have taken the time to create a system that is easy to use, and offers you a lot of features. The hardware costs to do a simple ramp up/down timer on an LED system versus a full on multi channel controller with web interface, storms, cloud cover, etc. is about the same. You are paying for the software features that make the system unique.

 

Sure, with some companies, the cost of the fixture is a little higher due to the limits on how much volume a company can purchase for the various parts needed for a fixture. You can still get an awful lot of fixture for the money nowadays.

 

Let's see where this takes us.

well, there went half my lunch break....

 

Evil: where do you see the LED lighting industry in 5 years? if someone was to be planning a 200-800+ gallon system would you favor leds? and what is currently the thing that upsets you the most about the lighting industry?

Well, it's probably not going to change a whole lot compared to what we see today. The big changes are going to be in overall efficiency and costs. I'm sure there will be more development in the micro LED packages like the Lumileds Luxeon Z and Cree XB series. These form factors will allow us to get CoB like performance, at least from a color blending perspective, in a more DIY friendly format. DIY might not be all that practical, as these LEDs are tiny and hard to work with, but a custom builder with the right gear could offer build to order arrays. The big drawback with these LEDs right now is the lower efficiency compared to the top end of the LED market.

 

One thing I think everyone that has been tinkering with LEDs for a while would like to see is a phosphor converted blue LED so that you can get a nice wide emission range.

 

 

And Rural, I didn't necessarily want everyone to answer just the questions that I posted above. It was more as an example of potential topics to talk about. Thanks for your post though

OLEDs would be interesting. I think multichip LEDs could be utilized more often to produce a more even spread. But mainly I think assessing the shadowing issue will be the biggest step forward.

OLED would absolutely be interesting, but the cost has got to come down significantly, and the longevity and brightness has to go up. I must admit, I haven't looked into them for years, so maybe some of their shortcomings have been remedied.

[evilc66]

As for my thoughts?

 

Well, I think we are at a point where we have a good color setup with LEDs. Not every fixture has it, but I think from what we have tinkered with on the DIY front for the last few years, we have a pretty solid idea for a well rounded array with fantastic color, color rendering, and intensity. There may be a few small things to tweak here and there if new LED options come up (like a phosphor converted blue), but I don't think it's going to change all that much in the coming years.

 

One thing that has been on my mind lately has been control, or, at least in some cases, the excess of it. 10 years ago, the ability to change the color of your light without changing bulbs was virtually unheard of. Granted, PFO had the Solaris LED fixture that had multiple control channels, but it was certainly in the minority. MH and T5 options were easy. Just pick the bulbs that gave you the look you wanted, and then you rarely change it. Today, with LED setup, people tinker with the settings too much. Some also find all the options overwhelming. What would people say if the LED market headed back towards a similar model to MH lighting, where you have a few pre-configured options for color temperature, either in software or hardware, and leave it at that? You could still have intensity adjustment, but leave the complexity of setting up numerous channels of color out of the equation.

[Nano sapiens]

 

One thing that has been on my mind lately has been control, or, at least in some cases, the excess of it. 10 years ago, the ability to change the color of your light without changing bulbs was virtually unheard of. Granted, PFO had the Solaris LED fixture that had multiple control channels, but it was certainly in the minority. MH and T5 options were easy. Just pick the bulbs that gave you the look you wanted, and then you rarely change it. Today, with LED setup, people tinker with the settings too much. Some also find all the options overwhelming. What would people say if the LED market headed back towards a similar model to MH lighting, where you have a few pre-configured options for color temperature, either in software or hardware, and leave it at that? You could still have intensity adjustment, but leave the complexity of setting up numerous channels of color out of the equation.

 

Perhaps the 'best of both worlds' would be to have a commercial unit come with a few standard pre-configured options (10K, 12k, etc. on up to 20K) which would suit ~90% of saltwater aquarists, but also have a more granular level of control that would be accessable for the more adventurous aquarists.

[nlm2889]

Personally, I'd like to see LED units in a curved shape to provide better coverage within the core area. For instance, something like the Nanobox Duo that's curved enough that the shadowing present with LED units is negated. I've got a few LED units, and they are all wonderful for so many different reasons, the only downside I've faced is the stark contrast in the shadows. Metal halide units I've used don't suffer nearly as much.

[O2Surplus]

There may be a few small things to tweak here and there if new LED options come up (like a phosphor converted blue), but I don't think it's going to change all that much in the coming years.

 

Today, with LED setup, people tinker with the settings too much. Some also find all the options overwhelming. What would people say if the LED market headed back towards a similar model to MH lighting, where you have a few pre-configured options for color temperature, either in software or hardware, and leave it at that? You could still have intensity adjustment, but leave the complexity of setting up numerous channels of color out of the equation.

I think you're right. I think led technology has plateaued for the most part, but will continue to advance in smaller steps. A phosphor converted "blue" led would be a welcome addition. Maybe it will be a reality in a few years?

 

As for control- I think that the majority of people are the "set it & forget it" type. Maybe the reversion to more simplified controls will be something we'll see in the future? I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

 

Where's that "chirping cricket" emogi when I need it?

[DaveFason]

Being that I personally make and build custom units here is what I think.

 

• Super thin units - I have played with 1/4" custom unit using a Sunon Might Max Blower fan - Just not feasible right now.
• True "reef blue" LED made by Philips
• Less control
• OLED Tech - YEARS down the road but would simulate closely to T5
• Less " UV " talk
• Less shadowing talk

I am much for of an aesthetic guy with tanks. I feel that so many are on the right path and then fail, HARD. This is one reason I started to make LED units. To make a unit that not only functions well but also looks incredible. I would love to design a unit that you can barely notice but only notice the amazing output from the light.

 

A true "reef blue" LED would be amazing. I do not think it will happen but one can dream. I have been using Mint color featured on the Lux C with AMAZING results. I feel this is almost as close as we will get with the current tech. As well as high CRI LEDs becoming more efficient and easier to purchase.

 

I agree with what Clive and others have said. We have FAR to much control but this day and age this is what people want. More often than not people mess with their tanks color, output, etc and it stresses things out. If it looks good, KEEP IT! There is no reason to continue to bump up output and change your color bi-weekly.

 

Less " UV " talk. Two - three years ago everyone was on the violet/uv band wagon. As things progressed there is really no need for a insane amount of violet/uv. It is not needed. Just use good quality whites, blues and a couple violets. That is it!

 

Shadowing is a huge pet peeve and that is mostly because of other companies state that X/Y/Z will work on a certain tanks. Before LEDs were around you lit your tank edge to edge ( wasting some light ). Fast forward and you will see lights that only cover 1/2 - 3/4 of the tank. It is not the technology, it is the " recommendations " out there! If you put a 12" T5 light on a 24-36" tank you will get shadowing. If you put a single MH bulb over a 36" you will get shadowing! Put the correct amount of light over the tank and you will be fine.

 

I absolutely love what I am doing and how the hobby continues to change.

 

-Dave

[holy carp]

can I just hang my old 720P TV above the tank? Super color control with any old PC screensaver.

[Nano sapiens]

 

A true "reef blue" LED would be amazing. I do not think it will happen but one can dream. I have been using Mint color featured on the Lux C with AMAZING results. I feel this is almost as close as we will get with the current tech.

 

 

'Mint'...now that's something I haven't heard of. Can you elaborate (spectrum, visual look compared to Cyan, Limes, etc.)?

[Sunstar]

Man, it's been slow around here on NR, especially in my favorite little hangout, the lighting forum.

 

So let's shake it up a bit. Let's get some discussion going.

 

How would you like to see the current state of reef tank lighting evolve? Different light sources? Changes in the level and method of control? Form factor? Materials? Let's see where this takes us.

What do you expect? Everyone is out playing pokemon go.

 

now to read the thread and see what interesting thoughts are on this illuminating subject.

[Marc.The.Shark]

I think it's right where it needs to be. I love my "new" NanoBox light! Thanks Dave!!

(if you look really hard you can see the NanoBox symbol bottom right, in case Dave denies it! lol)

 

 

[jedimasterben]

'Mint'...now that's something I haven't heard of. Can you elaborate (spectrum, visual look compared to Cyan, Limes, etc.)?

Mint is lime with a slightly thinner layer of phosphor (at least that is how I assume phosphor to work, anyway lol) that is identical to lime, except with more blue. Spectral peak is the same, and Lumileds claims the same output and efficiency.

 

They're interesting, but comparing to an array that already has lime and plenty of blue LEDs, there isn't really a difference.

Personally, I'd like to see LED units in a curved shape to provide better coverage within the core area. For instance, something like the Nanobox Duo that's curved enough that the shadowing present with LED units is negated. I've got a few LED units, and they are all wonderful for so many different reasons, the only downside I've faced is the stark contrast in the shadows. Metal halide units I've used don't suffer nearly as much.

The Maxspect Ethereal I believe matches what you're thinking, the LED clusters are circled around the fan in the middle. I have a pair of them over my new cube-ish tank, haven't yet tested it with one to see how shadowing is, but the design lends to lessening it.

[Nano sapiens]

Mint is lime with a slightly thinner layer of phosphor (at least that is how I assume phosphor to work, anyway lol) that is identical to lime, except with more blue. Spectral peak is the same, and Lumileds claims the same output and efficiency.

 

They're interesting, but comparing to an array that already has lime and plenty of blue LEDs, there isn't really a difference.

 

 

Got it (more of an 'instead of regular Lime' type thing). Thanks.

[Horerczy]

Fun topic.

 

I think less channels of control would be nice. That at the same time I'd like to see manual dimming worked in like the makers driver setup on more controllers. I like using pots to fine tune color then setting the controller to work the time and max intensity.

 

Also I like the idea of multiple arrays of tiny leds (Luxeon c) spread across the fixture run at low current using a reflectors with diffusion materials at the end. High end violet chips could be set interspersed from the arrays since they don't have blending issues. Would help spread immensely.

 

Probably more things but time to come back from lunch.

[fredfish01]

...

Material costs are going down. A lot...

Are they? That does not seem to be reflected in the pricing at Steve's or Rapid.

[sam_the_reefer]

More Intense and diffused(like T5-level diffused) and color blended and smaller and cool running and power-efficient LEDs.

[DaveFason]

Like Ben said, like lime but more blue. It is really hard to tell the difference when they are next to each other. It is a hair less "green" looking. However once you start blending them with royal, blue, cyan and violet is creates an amazing look. Check my Lagoon thread.

 

'Mint'...now that's something I haven't heard of. Can you elaborate (spectrum, visual look compared to Cyan, Limes, etc.)?

 

Funny you say that. I was contacted by someone who wanted to add a small color OLED screen for something like this. Personally I would love it but think people would never use it. No APP, your crap

Fun topic.

I think less channels of control would be nice. That at the same time I'd like to see manual dimming worked in like the makers driver setup on more controllers. I like using pots to fine tune color then setting the controller to work the time and max intensity.

Also I like the idea of multiple arrays of tiny leds (Luxeon c) spread across the fixture run at low current using a reflectors with diffusion materials at the end. High end violet chips could be set interspersed from the arrays since they don't have blending issues. Would help spread immensely.

Probably more things but time to come back from lunch.

 

These guys normally keep up with the current gen LEDs so they will not see huge savings. They still offer the LEDs at incredible prices for a DIY person. I still buy some of my single LEDs from Rapid for testing/playing.

Are they? That does not seem to be reflected in the pricing at Steve's or Rapid.

[DaveFason]

How would you like to see the current state of reef tank lighting evolve?

I would like to see the science of the Phillips squad applied to the aquarium-centric companies. the testing and such. also I would of course like to see these people carrying products at lower costs, it seems when new stuff/leds/boards/lenses/components comes out they only sell the newer stuff at an even higher price. I would also like if companies ran test tanks and published data. Another thing, what about miniature track mounted lights that move across the tank to address LED shadowing issues? evil, I know you could make me one out of a k'nex kit or something? so after all this rambling: lower-priced track-mounted motorized improved and proven leds would be AWESOME.

 

 

I would love to run more tests and publish more data but the hardest part is the ever changing tech of LEDs. Running a true study for corals/light needs to be done over the course of 12-24 months. However with current tech evolving so quickly the data would come out and then your behind the times! I have been trying to keep up with my personal tank with photos and things that I am doing to help out. I would love to have a dedicated tank with APEX running every stat that people could watch and monitor with me. Showing that that no funny business is going on.

 

Only talking out loud but what would you guys think of something like this?

• Dedicated tank running X/Y/Z equipment
• APEX running modules to give actual & up to date info - Open to users to see and watch
• Real Time Web cam watching tank

-Dave

[Gilly's Reef]

I would like to see T5 bulbs last longer. Much better growth than LED

[evilc66]

Yay! Discussion!

 

 

Are they? That does not seem to be reflected in the pricing at Steve's or Rapid.

From the DIY aspect, the price has stagnated a little over the last few years. From a commercial aspect, where the volumes are much higher, the price has dropped significantly. Back when I was working for Nanocustoms, we were getting LEDs in volume for something in the order of $3.50-$4 each, depending on the LED in question (we were in the process of switching from the old XR-E to the XP-G/XP-E). For the same volumes, you can get far better LEDs for just a hair over $1.

 

Drivers have dropped a lot in price as the market competition has increased. For DC drivers, your only options used to be the Luxdrive Buckpucks at $15 each, and the Recom RCD at closer to $20 (their price has come down a little). Now, the Meanwell LDD smokes both of those offerings for under $4 in volume.

 

MCPCB costs have also gone down a lot too as the technology has matured and more companies are offering it as a service.

 

I would like to see T5 bulbs last longer. Much better growth than LED

 

I know that UVL had done some work on that in the past when I was dealing with them for the 12" and 18" T5's, but I have no idea if it ever made it to production. They were playing with gas mixes and electrode materials to increase output and life. They were shooting for ATI like output with better longevity.

 

Getting considerably more life out of lamps like that will be hard though. The gases in the tubes aren't always that friendly with electrode materials that would conduct well, as well as last longer. Add into the fact that there is an arc that is struck between the electrodes, eroding away the metal over time, and it becomes a fine balancing act. Increasing bulb life could reduce overall output and efficiency. Increasing output shortens life. I'm pretty sure that very few of us wants to give up output for a little bit better lifespan

 

The same is true for MH lamps. Any time you have an electrode, you have a limited life. That's really where plasma had it's appeal. Now you are just focusing high intensity radio waves into a small capsule with gases and halide salts, exciting the molecules to the point where they start to create light. No electrodes to wear out, and you get the lifetime that you would expect from LEDs. You also have the opportunity to use gases and halide salts that you normally wouldn't be able to use with an arc lamp, giving you the ability to create spectral output that no other lamp could.

 

Inductive PCs also shared this benefit. It could be cool if you could do an inductive T5. Hmm....

[gus6464]

More Intense and diffused(like T5-level diffused) and color blended and smaller and cool running and power-efficient LEDs.

 

So basically a Philips CoralCare.

http://www.philips.co.uk/c-m-li/coralcare

Yay! Discussion!

 

 

From the DIY aspect, the price has stagnated a little over the last few years. From a commercial aspect, where the volumes are much higher, the price has dropped significantly. Back when I was working for Nanocustoms, we were getting LEDs in volume for something in the order of $3.50-$4 each, depending on the LED in question (we were in the process of switching from the old XR-E to the XP-G/XP-E). For the same volumes, you can get far better LEDs for just a hair over $1.

 

Drivers have dropped a lot in price as the market competition has increased. For DC drivers, your only options used to be the Luxdrive Buckpucks at $15 each, and the Recom RCD at closer to $20 (their price has come down a little). Now, the Meanwell LDD smokes both of those offerings for under $4 in volume.

 

MCPCB costs have also gone down a lot too as the technology has matured and more companies are offering it as a service.

 

 

I know that UVL had done some work on that in the past when I was dealing with them for the 12" and 18" T5's, but I have no idea if it ever made it to production. They were playing with gas mixes and electrode materials to increase output and life. They were shooting for ATI like output with better longevity.

 

Getting considerably more life out of lamps like that will be hard though. The gases in the tubes aren't always that friendly with electrode materials that would conduct well, as well as last longer. Add into the fact that there is an arc that is struck between the electrodes, eroding away the metal over time, and it becomes a fine balancing act. Increasing bulb life could reduce overall output and efficiency. Increasing output shortens life. I'm pretty sure that very few of us wants to give up output for a little bit better lifespan

 

The same is true for MH lamps. Any time you have an electrode, you have a limited life. That's really where plasma had it's appeal. Now you are just focusing high intensity radio waves into a small capsule with gases and halide salts, exciting the molecules to the point where they start to create light. No electrodes to wear out, and you get the lifetime that you would expect from LEDs. You also have the opportunity to use gases and halide salts that you normally wouldn't be able to use with an arc lamp, giving you the ability to create spectral output that no other lamp could.

 

Inductive PCs also shared this benefit. It could be cool if you could do an inductive T5. Hmm....

 

GE has been doing this for a while with their Starcoat Extralife bulbs. they are rated for 40K hour life instead of the standard 20-25K of T5. They could care less about our market though. Freshwater peeps can get 6500K XL bulbs though.

[Nightstar]

I'm pretty happy with my two year old DIY. It has WW, cyan, blue, RB(Cree 455nm), RB (Phillips 445nm), 430nm, 410nm, and 405nm diodes. Currently 68 diodes @350ma in a 36" linear 3 row array over my 40B. I'd like to double my diode count and half the current for more even spread. I don't think it gets better, just more.

 

If I had money to burn experimenting I'd pick up some of those remote phosphor sheets and a wack of UV, violet and RB LEDs to play with. I bet the net effect looks like fluorescent lights behind a frosted diffuser. Tune the spectral curve with base emitter fequency combinations and remote phosphor density.

 

MH has nothing to offer me. Been there, done that. Same for Flo's. Plasma looks promising but I won't hold my breath for affordable color tunable LEP aquarium lamps.