Freshwater to saltwater. Help!

[Neilsarah]

I have a 195 setup. 3 hole overflow with a 60? Gallon sump. It's always been setup as a freshwater cichlids tank. I got a bad case of black brush algae. Pulled out all rocks and decor and soaked in bleach water and cleaned it the best I could. Rinsed several times and put it all back. I am starting to see signs of it coming back. Which is driving me to consider switching to a reef tank. Something I've always wanted to try. My question is what other equipment do I need to convert to salt? The 2 things I know of are a protein skimmer and new lights. I already have a uv sterilizer. And I know I will need to change substrate. What else do I need? My other question is about the black brush algae. Can it grow in salt water? Will I be faced with the same problem if I don't completely strip down the tank and kill all traces of it? Any help with these questions would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks!

[Tamberav]

I have a 195 setup. 3 hole overflow with a 60? Gallon sump. It's always been setup as a freshwater cichlids tank. I got a bad case of black brush algae. Pulled out all rocks and decor and soaked in bleach water and cleaned it the best I could. Rinsed several times and put it all back. I am starting to see signs of it coming back. Which is driving me to consider switching to a reef tank. Something I've always wanted to try. My question is what other equipment do I need to convert to salt? The 2 things I know of are a protein skimmer and new lights. I already have a uv sterilizer. And I know I will need to change substrate. What else do I need? My other question is about the black brush algae. Can it grow in salt water? Will I be faced with the same problem if I don't completely strip down the tank and kill all traces of it? Any help with these questions would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks!

 

 

it can't grow in salt water but salt water has many of its own worst enemies too Some of this you probably have but here is a quick list off the top of my head. You don't need all of these day one (like supplements/dips) but you will need them at some point soon after. I would say larger tanks need more items than smaller ones because its not feasible to do large % water changes,

 

What sort of rock is it? You may need dry/live rock, I know some use texas holy rock as base rock.

 

Flow/powerheads.

 

Test kits, and later on additives/suppliments

 

Salt

 

RODI water (no tap water!)

 

Refractometer

 

Filter sock

 

Maybe carbon and phosphate remover and reactor

 

Heater/thermometer

 

Food safe container to mix salt water in such a brute

 

Misc cleaning items: algae scraper, siphon hose, turkey baster (to clean debris from rocks), nets

 

It is also a good idea to have a Quarantine tank for fish as most fish are wild caught and sometimes bring in diseases you really don't want.

 

Chloroquine phosphate, and prazipro are good to have on hand to treat sick fish in QT.

 

Dips for corals such as bayer or coral rx (they can have pests too).

[Neilsarah]

That is great info. Thank you! I do

Have lots of Texas hokey rock. I would want to do mostly live rock eventually. What about filtration. Is it the same concept as freshwater? Mechanical into biological? And as far as major "equipment" was I right about just needing a protein skimmer and new lights? I do have heaters already and yes I would need power heads.

[Tamberav]

That is great info. Thank you! I do

Have lots of Texas hokey rock. I would want to do mostly live rock eventually. What about filtration. Is it the same concept as freshwater? Mechanical into biological? And as far as major "equipment" was I right about just needing a protein skimmer and new lights? I do have heaters already and yes I would need power heads.

 

If you want live rock, then you need to start with it right away. You do not want to add live rock to an established tank. I suppose you could cycle the live rock in a separate container and than add it but you would still be better off getting the scape how you want it now. You could do partial live rock and partial dry rock to keep cost down. Reef cleaners dry rock is cheap and amazing stuff.

 

Biological filtration is your live rock, no sponges, balls, ect are needed in a reef.

 

I would consider a RODI unit necessary for a tank your size and part of the major equipment. Spectrapure brand is what is generally recommended.

[Neilsarah]

So why exactly does go into the sump then? Do you still use filter media? And I looked up the filter socks. Does that go over my return line?

[Tamberav]

So why exactly does go into the sump then? Do you still use filter media? And I looked up the filter socks. Does that go over my return line?

 

The drain from the display tank runs down into the sock to catch debris, you change it every few days. I have 10 or so and when I get enough dirty ones they go in the washer with just a little bleach. I then let them fully air dry since bleach evaporates.

 

Sump is for skimmer, heater, reactors if needed, some people do refugiums. It also adds more water volume and makes for an easy place to change the water too. It is also a place for you to set up an auto top off system and any dosing or controllers you might want. It's basically to hide everything so the display tank doesn't look like a junkyard.

 

What do you mean by filter media? I never had a freshwater tank but you don't use sponges or bioballs or whatever.

 

There are many types of filtration but generally people use carbon and a form of phosphate remover if needed. What you use will depend on what your tests tell you and your individual tank. You can have too much filtration and starve corals. You definitely want a skimmer on that size tank though, try to buy one rated higher than your tank and sumps total water volume. Most manufacturers over-rate their skimmers.

 

So basically a good start is the sock + skimmer for filtration. Probably carbon too, Bulk Reef Supplies Rox 0.8 is very good stuff. It will help with any impurities, making the water more crystal clear, chemical warfare between corals, ect. Some people run it all the time, others just have it on hand for emergencies. You can use it in a reactor or in a bag. It is more effective in a reactor but a bag isn't horrible either. Right now, I use it in a bag, I had a reactor but got sick of it, just another thing to clean/maintain and make noise. It's personal preference though.

[Neilsarah]

The way my sump is set up is 4 chambers. #1 water returns from tank I have filter pads in this. Such as a coarse one,medium,fine, then I use a felt micro pad. This is to catch all the debris. Sound like same purpose as the sock just more of it. Then it goes through the bio balls then the the last two chambers are just empty. I have my heater in one and pump in the other. Thanks for your advise. Sounds like I have some more research to do. If I put the live rock in to cycle tank is there a period where I have to start adding fish? I know with freshwater if you don't start addin fish the tank will never properly cycle. Is the rock enough to keep the tank cycled and slowly start adding fish? Since I'm a beginner am I better off starting out without live rock? What's the reason you can not add live rock to an existing tank?

[Tamberav]

The way my sump is set up is 4 chambers. #1 water returns from tank I have filter pads in this. Such as a coarse one,medium,fine, then I use a felt micro pad. This is to catch all the debris. Sound like same purpose as the sock just more of it. Then it goes through the bio balls then the the last two chambers are just empty. I have my heater in one and pump in the other. Thanks for your advise. Sounds like I have some more research to do. If I put the live rock in to cycle tank is there a period where I have to start adding fish? I know with freshwater if you don't start addin fish the tank will never properly cycle. Is the rock enough to keep the tank cycled and slowly start adding fish? Since I'm a beginner am I better off starting out without live rock? What's the reason you can not add live rock to an existing tank?

 

Oh, yeah maybe it is. I'm not sure how it the pads work but the idea is to change it 100% out often. Not wash it in tank water, I mean remove and swap with a new one and bleach the old one.

 

We don't use bioballs, its an old method and tend to eventually produce too much Nitrate. Reason for not using bioballs or sponges is we don't need them for the biological filtration, the live rock does that.

 

You don't need fish at all for it and it is generally not recommended. Any source of ammonia will cycle the tank, weather it is live rock, a pinch of rotting fish food, or pure ammonia. There are ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate tests kits to follow the cycle. And you can buy bacteria in a bottle like Microbacter 7 which can speed the cycle up. This may take several weeks.

 

The main idea is to go slow in this hobby for the best success. You want your biological filtration and your nitrate reducing bacteria to get established which takes time so adding fish slowly helps with that.

 

1. cycle tank

2. add clean up crew for diatom bloom/possible algae

3. add fish slowly to allow biological filtration to catch up to new aquarium inhabitants

 

Starting out without live rock (or dry rock) is more difficult, you definitely want live or dry rock, it is a huge advancement to salt water and the ability to successfully keep tanks. If I had a tank this big, I would buy a mix of quality dry rock such as reef-cleaners and some actual live rock from the LFS.

 

You don't add live rock (lets say directly from your LFS) to an established tank because it runs a risk of causing the tank to have a mini recycle and the corals and fish are sensitive to ammonia. Mostly because you don't know the source rock well enough. There is ways to safely add more live rock, but you would first want to be sure it is cycled in an other container. This user had that problem: http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/375175-how-many-water-changes-has-one-made-in-a-day-hhheeeaaaalllllppp/page-4

 

By the way, when researching salt water tanks, be sure the advice/articles date it recent. This hobby changes and evolves fast and many methods found on the internet are outdated.

[Neilsarah]

Thank you so much for all your help/advice. You've given me a lot to think over before I make a decision.

[Clown79]

The first and best piece of advice one can give for reef keeping- do lots of research, be patient.

 

You will need to remove everything currently in the tank and thouroughly clean it before making the switch to sw. The rocks and substrate you have right now shouldn't be reused in the SW.

 

You will need the following for start up.

 

New substrate like Caribsea livesand or go barebottom.

 

Liverock, dryrock, or a mix of both.

 

Ammonia, nitrite, nitrate kits to start- more once corals are added.

 

Rodi, distilled, or ro water only

 

Salt and buckets

 

Refractometer

 

Lights

 

Powerheads

 

Skimmer

 

 

Your tank will need to be cycled before adding any livestock.

 

https://www.saltwateraquarium.com/cycling-a-saltwater-aquarium/

 

^ thats a good article to explain the methods for cycling.

 

Liverock is your biological filteration and most use carbon, floss(or a sock), and when needed gfo.

 

You don't need bioballs, sponges, ceramic rings in sw.

[Subsea]

With respect to live rock as biological filtration, I consider substrate much more efficient and economical. Considering that biological filtration is all about surface area for bacteria to colonize, 10 lbs of substrate has much more surface area than 10 lbs of rock. I use diver collected aquacultured live rock for biodiversity in a reef tank. Dry or live rock provides hiding places for fish to feel secure.

 

Before going any further, you should decide what biotheme you want your tank to be. It will determine what equipment you should get. If you were doing FOWLR (fish only with live rock), you would not need any new equipment. I operate mixed garden reef tanks with softies and mushrooms without a protein skimmer. Yes, I am old school and doing reefs for 45 years. Just because a new technology comes out, does not mean it is more efficient. It is hard to improve on nature. Talk with any micro biologist. Over time, nature has evolved to be most efficient.

 

With respect to substrate, the reason for using aragonite is because of its buffering ability with pH and to help with calcium and other trace mineral depletion.

[Tamberav]

With respect to live rock as biological filtration, I consider substrate much more efficient and economical. Considering that biological filtration is all about surface area for bacteria to colonize, 10 lbs of substrate has much more surface area than 10 lbs of rock. I use diver collected aquacultured live rock for biodiversity in a reef tank. Dry or live rock provides hiding places for fish to feel secure.

 

Before going any further, you should decide what biotheme you want your tank to be. It will determine what equipment you should get. If you were doing FOWLR (fish only with live rock), you would not need any new equipment. I operate mixed garden reef tanks with softies and mushrooms without a protein skimmer. Yes, I am old school and doing reefs for 45 years. Just because a new technology comes out, does not mean it is more efficient. It is hard to improve on nature. Talk with any micro biologist. Over time, nature has evolved to be most efficient.

 

With respect to substrate, the reason for using aragonite is because of its buffering ability with pH and to help with calcium and other trace mineral depletion.

 

Are you talking about deep sand beds? My understanding is denitrifying bacteria can live everywhere but lives in greater numbers inside porous rock or in deep sand beds. I would agree deep sand beds would provide more area but many people also run 1 inch sand beds and if not cleaned (at least in nano-sized tanks), they generally cause more problems than benefits.

 

In regards to deep sand beds, If you have a fairly shallow tank, running one in the DT isn't an option (could run one remotely). If the tank isn't shallow, it then becomes a question of weather you like look of a deep sand bed. Live rock is technically optional too, especially with all the products on the market like marine pure, matrix, eheim substrate pro, ect.

 

I ran a somewhat deep sand bed (would have liked a deeper bed but the tank dimensions would not allow) in my cold water tank for awhile since the tank does not have porous rock, it did seem to work. I replaced it with a shallow bed when I had to move the tank since the sand got disturbed and am now using eheim substrate pro in the back chamber. It's too early to tell how it will work long term but might be interesting experiment since that tank has no live rock and a shallow sand bed.

 

This hobby is so diverse, there are great examples of tanks running many different ways with different equipment whether it is deep sand beds, or bare bottom, or zeo.

 

I think we might see more deep sand beds if this forum weren't dedicated more towards nano tanks where dimensions and space limit such things. In the posters 195, it certainly is an option.

[Subsea]

I really wasn't talking about DSB. With respect to bacteria, nitrifying and denitrifying, substrate has more surface area than any live rock. Surface area is colonized by bacteria.

 

I operate ten tanks in my living room/dining room. My 75G has been set up for 20 years. It has a Jaubert Plenumn with a 6" crushed coral sandbed on top with a 30G Eco-System mud filter and macro algae refugium on bottom. The 6" DSB with coarse substrate was set up to do denitrification with faculative bacteria. The coarser substrate extended the lower oxygen zone so that a much larger zone contained faculative bacteria for denitrification. Since those early days it has been shown that nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria can exist in close proximity of each other. I would never recommend a DSB again, but it is still working well. The mud filter with pods and worms is all about nutrient recycling. Detritus settles in the sump with a proliferation of pods and worms. As they reproduce, their larvae feed coral and fish. The macro algae refugium can both recycle nutrients or export nutrients.

 

In essence, I keep it simple with less technology and more biology. Considering the size of the OP's tank, it would be much less costly to use the model I have outlined above.

 

For people on a budget, I don't recommend a sump. With 1" or less sandbed a mixed garden reef can be maintained very easily. With the correct choice of inhabitants, decorative and utilitarian macro can be used to export nutrients. Activated carbon removes 80% of DOC compared to 30% removed by protein skimmers.

[Tamberav]

I really wasn't talking about DSB. With respect to bacteria, nitrifying and denitrifying, substrate has more surface area than any live rock. Surface area is colonized by bacteria.

 

I operate ten tanks in my living room/dining room. My 75G has been set up for 20 years. It has a Jaubert Plenumn with a 6" crushed coral sandbed on top with a 30G Eco-System mud filter and macro algae refugium on bottom. The 6" DSB with coarse substrate was set up to do denitrification with faculative bacteria. The coarser substrate extended the lower oxygen zone so that a much larger zone contained faculative bacteria for denitrification. Since those early days it has been shown that nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria can exist in close proximity of each other. I would never recommend a DSB again, but it is still working well. The mud filter with pods and worms is all about nutrient recycling. Detritus settles in the sump with a proliferation of pods and worms. As they reproduce, their larvae feed coral and fish. The macro algae refugium can both recycle nutrients or export nutrients.

 

In essence, I keep it simple with less technology and more biology. Considering the size of the OP's tank, it would be much less costly to use the model I have outlined above.

 

For people on a budget, I don't recommend a sump. With 1" or less sandbed a mixed garden reef can be maintained very easily. With the correct choice of inhabitants, decorative and utilitarian macro can be used to export nutrients. Activated carbon removes 80% of DOC compared to 30% removed by protein skimmers.

 

Would love to see a pic of your 20 year old 75g!

 

I agree with keeping it simple (depending on the goals of the tank), although I wouldn't call a skimmer advanced. They can be pricey though. I would just recommend used equipment for budget minded folks.

[RIP Sebastian]

Everyone who has already posted is 100% correct. Research, research, research. Since your tank is so large, ReefCentral may be another good spot to look at. Watch YouTube videos and read articles.

 

Good luck,

 

Nick

[Subsea]

Would love to see a pic of your 20 year old 75g!

 

I agree with keeping it simple (depending on the goals of the tank), although I wouldn't call a skimmer advanced. They can be pricey though. I would just recommend used equipment for budget minded folks.

I am somewhat of a dinasour on posting pictures and videos, but I will try. If you go to my website, you will see some utube videos for this tank.

 

PS. I am going to have to take tutorial classes. As I said, go to my website and click on AquacultureRanch videos. I made these 9 years ago and they are not that good. However, while at this link, there is another link to utube videos. A professional photographer friend made it. It highlights this tank very well.

[Subsea]

Would love to see a pic of your 20 year old 75g!

 

I agree with keeping it simple (depending on the goals of the tank), although I wouldn't call a skimmer advanced. They can be pricey though. I would just recommend used equipment for budget minded folks.

I do not consider a foam fractionater advanced. They have been used for 100 years in waste water treatment. I do consider them unnecessary and in some cases, such as NPS, detrimental for sensitive filter feeders.

[Clown79]

I agree. Simple systems seem to have less issues.

[Neilsarah]

I guess I didn't realize this forum was dedicated for smaller tanks. Oops. Info have one question about RO for water. Is this something that is a must? If so do I have to plumb it near the tank? My tank is in the basement and I do not want to cut holes in walls and run plumbing if I don't have to.

[Subsea]

Neil,

I have my own well and use untreated ground water, no RODI and no mechanical filtration. My groundwater is high in calcium, magnesium and sulfur. These minerals are depleted in reef tanks and must be added back in. Why should I take them out with RO.

Many successful reefkeepers use tap water from a municipal source. It really depends on the type of tank that you set up and your husbandry skills.

[Tamberav]

Tap is generally a bad idea and a source of problems. it is true that some tanks can run on tap successfully. But for every tank we see run well on tap water there are 100 more that have issues.

 

It is not possible for anyone to know your tap water and its composition unless you have it tested.

 

I would never do it or recommend it. It is much safer to use RODI to remove what you don't want and a high quality salt which will add back what you need.

 

If you do some searches on google you will find many resources against the use of tap water for this very reason. If you plan to only have fish and not powerful lighting, or just some easy softies, it is much less of an issue. I would highly advise against tap water if you want the greatest chance of success of a thriving reef, especially once you get the reef addiction and want to create a truly impressive display.

 

I guess I didn't realize this forum was dedicated for smaller tanks. Oops. Info have one question about RO for water. Is this something that is a must? If so do I have to plumb it near the tank? My tank is in the basement and I do not want to cut holes in walls and run plumbing if I don't have to.

[Clown79]

Tap water has far too much in it to take the risk of using it.

 

Even when tested, tap water quality changes weekly.

There are chemical treatments to clean out pipes, all the meds humans dump down the drain, waste, algaes, heavy metals, etc etc.

 

Just the amount of treatment used to make tap water safe for human consumption made my decision to use distilled easier.