Feeling discouraged: more death :(

[fishfreak0114]

So my first four fish additions went totally fine without any issues. I then got a tailspot blenny and a royal gramma. QT'd together in a 25 gallon last summer, they both got wicked ich and died during hypo.

 

A couple months ago I got a Bangaii Cardinal and QT'd it in a 10 gallon. It was totally fine and healthy, then 2 days before QT would end it got sick and died overnight with what I believe was the iridovirus (it had the symptoms).

 

About 2.5 weeks ago I got a talbot damsel. Qt'd in the 10 (after it was cleaned with bleach and re set up). It ate well, and looked healthy and didn't have any visible ich, though it came from a tank with it. I was treating with metroplex dosed to the water which is supposed to treat internal and external parasites. Yesterday it began hovering and my mom said the water was kind of cloudy. I had her put in carbon which she said fixed it (I'm on vacation, she's taking care of the tanks). It wouldn't eat yesterday and had white stringy poop for the first time. She texted me today and told me it had died. It seems that it had internal parasites and the meds didn't get rid of it judging by the physical appearance she described post death.

 

Am I doing something wrong? Temp and SG have been stable in all my QT's. I run an aquaclear with floss only during treatments. I'm really feeling discouraged and even though I really want more fish, I don't want to be the reason another dies. I'm willing to try again, but first I want to make sure I'm doing everything right. Am I just having bad luck with diseased fish? Also, these fish came from 3 different places.

 

Thanks

-Olivia

[metrokat]

I'm fairly new to QT's and in reading about how to set up a proper QT, I found differences in the way people treat a new fish.

Some folks throw in treatments as prophylactic. Some simply use the QT as a 2-3 week observation period and treat if they see any signs of disease. Perhaps the next time if the fish is seemingly healthy, you could try just observing?

[fishfreak0114]

Thanks for the reply I usually do observe, like with Bangaii. It had zero treatments. And the two before didn't either until I noticed the ich. This is the first fish I've treated off the bat because it moves so fast I couldn't really see if it had ich or not like the rest of the fish in the tank it came from. It had been the king of the tank and was the only fish without damaged fins (it did the damage to the others') and was significantly healthier but I figured it probably had ich too and I was just missing it.

 

Anyone have suggestions for meds that treat ich and possibly other things that actually works?

 

Malachite green for ich?

[dandelion]

I dose PraziPro phophylatically. Every fish goes through this. It's suppose to kill internal parasites.

 

The known treatment for ice includes hypo, tank transfer, copper, and chloroquine. Chloroquine would probably be the easiest. Copper requires a lot of testing and a mature biological filter is a must since you won't be able to use things like prime or amquel. TTM is labor exhausting, and hypo you'll have to worry about pH swings.

[RayWhisperer]

Any copper based med will cure things like ich and most fungus. Internal is significantly more involved. I never treat, unless I see something.

 

One thing you need to understand. Most of these "baddies" are always in the aquarium. However, a healthy fish has a healthy immune system, and is able to naturally fight off something like ich. That's why I only treat what I see.

 

As for your QT. Are you changing the water often? While many meds claim to not affect the good bacteria ( nitrossomma & nitrobacter) I never buy it. Even if it doesn't kill them, it's gotta inhibit their abilities. Besides, there are so many other organisms doing those same things, and more. I always do large volume water changes daily when I treat. Sure, I have to spend more on meds, but it's a trade off I'm willing to accept the few times I actually need to treat.

[fishfreak0114]

I'll look into chloroquine next time I'm at a fish store then and Prazipro. I'm not sure if I can find them locally.

[fishfreak0114]

I usually only do 1-2 wc's. I dose prime though to neutralize ammonia. Not that that can actually replace a wc though.

[RayWhisperer]

Prime, and all other conditioners/ammonia neutralizers actually work by bonding the offending agent (be it chlorine, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, whatever else the do) to oxygen. So, in effect, you could be lowering the ph, and dissolved oxygen levels. Could this be what's causing your sudden die offs? I kinda doubt it. However, it's something to keep in mind. Especially when it's recommended to increase the dosage when dealing with ammonia, nitrite and nitrates.

[fishfreak0114]

Hmm, that's a good point. I'm kind of doubting that that's why it's causing the die off but you never know. The last two made it 2.5 and 3 week, wouldn't ph drop before then? The last two both went cloudy the day the fish went downhill. I have no clue what would cause that though, it seems kind of random. and the carbon fixed yesterday's.

[RayWhisperer]

No, I doubt that's what caused your fish to die. It just added another stressor to an already stressed fish... To coin a phrase, it was just another brick in the wall.

 

The cloudy water could have been many things. The most likely being bacteria of some sort. Yes, I did say these meds that don't kill beneficial bacteria probably hinder them. So, you have a massive imbalance in a small environment. One, or more bacteria is going to be able to exploit that. A bloom of even harmless bacteria can cause the oxygen levels to deplete quite quickly. That may well have been what killed your fish. I really don't know, though.

 

Another thing that springs to mind, is a cycle. You mentioned you cleaned everything out with bleach before setting it back up. There was no mention of how long it was set up. Granted, most folks don't usually keep a QT up and running at all times, myself included. However, it's another reason to be doing daily water changes.

[fishfreak0114]

It was set up a couple days before I got the fish. If it was bacteria, then somehow the carbon pulled it out because the water cleared after that. Can carbon do that? I don't think the cloudy water did it either because it cleared way before the fish died, though I guess there's no way to be sure. It could have been a cycle. Are there any adverse effects on fish other than ammonia poisoning? Because I was dosing prime every 48 hours just in case.

 

So if I'm going to this again, does this sound like a good plan?

 

Set it up as per usual because I don't think it's an issue with the actual equipment I run. Keep meds (Prazipro and chloroquine if I can find them) on hand. Do fairly large water changes every couple days. Observe until I know if it's sick or not. Treat if it needs it and then do water changes each time just before meds are re dosed. Just floss in the filter. Suck out waste frequently with a baster. Dose prime every 48 hours if it won't interfere with meds as back up.

[RayWhisperer]

Sounds solid. Though, I wouldn't bother with prime on the days you do a water change.

 

Edit: both of those medications are pretty common. I dont think you'll have a problem finding them.

 

Edit again: I don't know how much you go through. But, just in case you didn't know, and use a lot of it. You can buy a jar of safe. It's the same as prime, in powder form. The only thing it lacks is whatever preservative in prime. So, you just mix up small batches that you'll use within a few weeks to a month. So, sort the same price, a jar of safe makes something like 60 bottles of prime. (Don't quote me on that number, but it does make a metric shit ton!)

[fishfreak0114]

Thanks so much for all the help I've never seen either of those meds before, but I've never actually looked before. Interesting about the Safe, I've never heard of it before. I don't go through too much prime, 500ml lasts me nearly a year between 5+ tanks. I'll definitely look into it though when I finish my current bottle.

 

One other thing that crossed my mind. I use tap water (please don't judge) in my reef and the QT. I guess the water where I am is great or something because I don't have any problems with algae or other. I run plenty of chemical media in the reef though. Could bad stuff have built up in the QT from the tap water? That also doesn't make sense though, because I used it with my successful QT's too.

[RayWhisperer]

Doubtful. Toxins like heavy metals are minute in municipal water supplies. Likely at or near the same levels as natural waters.

[fishfreak0114]

OK good to know, I've always wondered but never really looked into it because I haven't had issues.

[Cencalfishguy56]

OK good to know, I've always wondered but never really looked into it because I haven't had issues.

chloroquine phosphate! My fish all had ich, been in treatment for approximately 6 days so far so good, still eating aggressively swimming strong and ammonia has remained at 0, don't see any signs of bacteria die off

Also really easy to dose and you don't have to do much work

[Hammerstone]

I personally would skip the qt and just put them in th dt. It seems to be the only thing that is constant in all of the deaths and might be stressing them out? And like another person said the fish have their own immunity naturally. Also my opinion, if you're qting, maybe do it for like a week. Do the fish have a place to hide in your qt? I think it would lessen the stress on the fish. Also maybe do lights less. Remember just my opinion.

[fishfreak0114]

Cencalfishguy:

 

We definitely have a winner then! I'm going to look for it on Thursday

 

Hammerstone:

 

I don't have any amazing fish sources near me, and I usually end up with sick fish. If I knew I was getting healthy fish, I would skip it, but I don't want to risk losing my current ones. For instance, if i pick up another damsel from the same place, I definitely need chloroquine phosphate because I know there's ich in there.

 

I have a piece of PVC in the QT, which funny enough the last fish wouldn't go in. I use the lights for most of the day, they actually seem happier with it.

 

 

If I'm treating a fish for ich, do I stop the meds once visible ich is gone? Or do I have to hit it in every step of the cycle? And after that, is a months observation overkill? I really don't want ich in my DT.

[Cencalfishguy56]

Cencalfishguy:

 

We definitely have a winner then! I'm going to look for it on Thursday

 

Hammerstone:

 

I don't have any amazing fish sources near me, and I usually end up with sick fish. If I knew I was getting healthy fish, I would skip it, but I don't want to risk losing my current ones. For instance, if i pick up another damsel from the same place, I definitely need chloroquine phosphate because I know there's ich in there.

 

I have a piece of PVC in the QT, which funny enough the last fish wouldn't go in. I use the lights for most of the day, they actually seem happier with it.

if you can't find it, here it is on eBay for cheap! http://m.ebay.com/itm/Chloroquine-Phosphate-Treats-marine-ich-velvet-brook-/231636780028?var=&hash=item35eea0c3fc%3Am%3Ameb1ttMS9yBs1hKZI5uBFNg&_trkparms=pageci%253A804d35b0-533e-11e6-ac98-74dbd180eb93%257Cparentrq%253A27a3c1df1560a6228616ca62fffda63c%257Ciid%253A1

[fishfreak0114]

Thanks!

[Cencalfishguy56]

Thanks!

oh btw I wouldn't stop the meds until the 6-8 weeks your DT has been fallow, that's just me as ich is a pain in the ass

[fishfreak0114]

I've never had ich in my DT (thankfully), but I'm not sure how long to use the meds on a new fish in the QT, because I'm almost certain it will have ich. I want to make sure all fish I buy are 100% healthy and disease free before they enter the DT.

[Cencalfishguy56]

I've never had ich in my DT (thankfully), but I'm not sure how long to use the meds on a new fish in the QT, because I'm almost certain it will have ich. I want to make sure all fish I buy are 100% healthy and disease free before they enter the DT.

the thing here is I QT'd all my fish before they were introduced but I only did my damsel for 3 weeks and he looked fine but after he started showing aggression a month later, I had an ich outbreak

[fishfreak0114]

Weird, that sucks. It's definitely what I'm looking to avoid. For length of time, would 3 weeks be ok if it's not sick, and if it is, treat until there's no visible ich and then observe for a month?

[Cencalfishguy56]

Weird, that sucks. It's definitely what I'm looking to avoid. For length of time, would 3 weeks be ok if it's not sick, and if it is, treat until there's no visible ich and then observe for a month?

i would say so, just treat for the full three weeks regardless of sick or not, I think the damsel may have had the cysts in the gills and it flared up when he became aggressive with everyone in the tank