4-tank, vertical build

[crawdads57]

Hello! Long time lurker, first time poster Please tell me what you think - I am most interested in everyone's thoughts on my "hydrodynamics" but any advice would be great!

 

Attached is my rough draft layout for a new build. I did this in excel to start, I'm attaching a jpeg screenshot and I'll follow up with a post containing the excel file (don't know if that will work).

Overview: I have all of these tanks except one already, but they are not configured like this. My idea is to have a display refugium at the top which flows into a succession of 2 more display tanks and then a sump / refugium. It will be a total of 66.7 tank volume, with an actual water volume of roughly 40-45 gallons. This is explained below.

Each display will have an overflow draining to the next display, and an emergency drain that goes directly to the sump. All are to be fed by one return pump, which only pumps into the top display (the display refugium).

I plan to install black acrylic "walls" on each end of each display, one where the input spills over (to kill bubbles etc.), and one which acts as an overflow box. This will control my water level in each tank. I want to do this to give me the cleanest lines possible. I want to take great care to place powerheads behind rock work so that no equipment is visible from the front view.

None of these things are labeled, but I'm sure you will be able to see what I'm talking about. I'll start with the cabinet and then go down each of the tanks starting from the top. Any advice / suggestions, either about livestock or equipment are much appreciated.

Cabinet: I'm going to build this myself. The front will be one large door that can be opened, well, just like a door but that also has "windows" cut out to show the display tanks, with a "cover" or "lid" (what is the word?) allowing me access to each tank. Those are the orange things on the right. There will be no top, but the whole things is 84" tall, so I'll use a step stool to get into the top display refugium tank.

Refugium display: this is a 12 gallon long that I already own. 35.5 X 8.25 X 9.5 - the purpose is obviously pods and macro algae. I have some macros picked out, none of which are caluerpa. I also want to put feather dusters and snails (maybe hermits) up here. No fish or anything else that eats a lot of pods. Any live stock advice here? Cool ideas for "lagoon" type specimens that aren't pod munchers? Light will be a Current Satellite (36-48") planted tank light that I already own. I think it will grow the hell out of some macros.

Center display: this is a 12.7 gallon high that I do not have yet. It measures roughly 24W X 8D X 16H. I want some height in this area while preserving my low water volume, and its the same size front to back as the other displays. This tank will be my "reef" and contain 99% of my corals, some of which are already on the rock to the right (that brown lump - lol). The darker brown rocks are live rock I already have. The lighter brown will be structures I plan to make out of prepared oyster shells. I asked about that in this post: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...t=oyster+shell the purpose being to give me the ability to continue the structure up through all 3 display tanks.

I also want to have a small number of schooling fish in this tank. I am going to plan on a gamble here and go for a certain species of rainbow fish: "blue back blue eyes" (P. cyanodorsalis). My original post about that is here: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...for+small+tank and a discussion I had with some rainbow fish pros can be found here: http://www.rainbow-fish.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3122 I also want to keep some blennies or small gobies in this tank. Other suggestions welcome, but I want the majority of the pods to be available to the rainbows. If someday I am convinced that my pod population would accommodate a scooter or mandarin I might do it. Maybe. Beyond that I want to keep gorgonians, softies, LPS (mainly acans) maybe some birdsnest, a lot of palys and zoas. CUC, etc.
I plan to buy an AI Prime HD LED, but other suggestions in the $200-250 price range would be welcome.

Bottom display: Another 12G long which I already own. Lots of live sand, some rock I already have and the base structures for my "oyster towers". The area on the left will be a deeper sand bed for some tube anemones and I also want to get a, you guessed it, mantis shrimp. I wonder if some of the smaller ones could be kept together? This is a whole other conversation, but I see Pseudosquilla ciliata are the spear type and stay small. I think I could get away with some trochus snails maybe - what else I can I keep to help keep this tank clean? I plan to get a Current Orbit 24-36" model. I have the 18-24" model on my 15 gallon cube, It gets the job done and I want this area to be mainly actinic anyways, with lots of shadows.

I'm not dead-set on the mantis, but I am set on the tube anemones. Any other livestock for this "semi-benthic" area, just let me know your thoughts.

Lastly, the sump: This is a good ol' 30 gallon that I already own and that is not fit to be a display tank. From left to right: overflows, sock, purigen, Tunze 9004, chaeto, carbon, heater, return. Pretty straightforward. Need a refugium light down here, but I'll find a good one for that chaeto.

 

Tell me what to do! Tell me what not to do! lol, tell me I'm crazy - I don't care

 

So I can't upload an excel file - bummer.

[crawdads57]

By the way, can someone recommend me a return pump for this monster? Its going to be ~80" of pipe from the sump pump to the top display. What kind of turnover should I plan for? If I go 10X that's 450gph after a huge head loss - I don't know where to start with that I guess. And my overflows, will 1" bulkheads work? I want to side drill these, not bottom drill.

[seabass]

Welcome to Nano-Reef.com. Wow that's a lot to take in.

 

A concern would be how much water would flow back to the 30 gallon sump in the event of a power outage (as check valves shouldn't be relied upon). So if it's normally half full, then it would have 15 gallons for back flow, or 5 gallons per tank (less if the sump is more than half full). Sounds like it will be very tight.

 

When figuring turnover for the sump, use the sump volume. So if you have 15 gallons in your sump, 10 times turnover would be 150gph. Remember that a 90 degree elbow adds another foot of head height. A Danner Mag Drive 7 should work (as it can pump up to 10'). It's fine to use other brands, but having a Flow Rate vs Pumping Height chart is helpful in determining which pump will work.

[RayWhisperer]

Sump capacity is a serious issue, however, I'll set that one aside for now. Quiet one makes some "high head" pumps that might be better suited to pushing water up 80"+. The 3000, or 4000, are probably going to put you in the same range as a mag 7, or mag 9.5. Though, being made for high head, they'll probably be pumping out more than a mag 7 at that height. So, you may need to go smaller.

 

Onto my next question. Why have 2 refugiums back to back, so to say? One will do the job, just fine. Wouldn't it be better to use the sump for mechanical filtration? Say, a sock and skimmer? Or, reverse that and put the fuge on the bottom and set the top up with mechanical and chemical filtration. I know the bottom isn't great for viewing, however, neither is a tank set at 80".

 

Now, lastly. Pseudomugil cyandorsalis? I know they've been found and collected from brackish all the way to hyper saline conditions. However, I thought they were more a costal estuary type fish. My point being, though they may tolerate marine conditions, I'm unsure of how they'll do in a full time marine environment.

[fishfreak0114]

This sounds ridiculously cool. I'll be following along, though I'm not much help with this kind of stuff

[crawdads57]

Ah! You guys are the best! I knew I should have come here first. So from the top, here are my replies:

 

1) Power outage: I live in Florida. On a farm. I have power outages every other month (on average - at least). I approximate that each display can dump 1.5 gallons back to the sump and I'm still way cool based on my schematic. Even that amount shouldn't swamp my PS too bad. I plan to only run about 15-18 gallons volume in that 30 gallon sump. I'm planning to use the "walls" I refer to to minimize that back dump to less than 1 gallon per display tank, so I think I have that part covered. I'll check out the danner pumps, I have no idea what the different brands are all about. I use "quiet ones" on my current tanks because they are cheap - lol.

 

2) Two refugiums, back-to-back: I don't see it as them being back-to-back. I have a hard time believing that these pods are making it through a foam filter (which I always use from my freshwater beginnings), then through the spinning blades of a pump, then a pressurized tube, and that they are no worse for the wear when they come out. I would like to think that the water coming back up from my return pump is as filtered as it can be. Plus, I want a display refugium for the purpose of showing off cool marine plant life at the "top" of the system, if not at the "top" of the food chain. The chaeto in the sump is really just because I have the space per my plans and I don't intend to use any fluidized reactors or any of that in that space. Of course I could in the future if I go more sps.

 

3) Blue backs: I don't know either, but check out my conversation in full at http://www.rainbow-fish.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3122and then also see: http://www.miniwaters.fish/product/pseudomugil-cyanodorsalis-blueback-blue-eye-rainbowfish/ I said it was a gamble, but I would like to have *many* small fish in this small space. Check out the www.nano-reef.com logo. Its right up there. What are those little fish right above the "n" and the "o"? I wish someone would tell me, because that's the idea - lol. And no gobies or clown fish, that's not what I have envisioned. I can buy 20 P. cyanodorsalis shipped for under $120. Is there something else anyone could recommend - looking at the overall layout of the system? If I have to I'll settle for lemon chromis, but there has to be something else - right?

[crawdads57]

I need a pump that can reliably push an air bubble back up 80" - this is a major concern in the event of a power outage. Then I need overflow plumbing that can handle such - lol! I'm going to make this plumbing work before I get carried away with fish etc., but I don't know what to do about the hardware without some potentially costly experiments - help!!!

[seabass]

The chaeto in the sump is really just because I have the space per my plans and I don't intend to use any fluidized reactors or any of that in that space. Of course I could in the future if I go more sps.

 

I'd personally ditch the chaeto in the sump. Your return pump will take up a good portion of the sump. Plus you want the return area fairly large or evaporation from all these tanks will cause the water level to drop quickly. Even with more space in the return section, I'd recommend an ATO.

 

Chaeto requires another light (more power consumption and another cord). Plus, you are robbing nutrients from your display refugium, which you would care more about. Not to mention the additional maintenance of that chaeto fuge.

 

Do you have room in your current sump plans for a large enough heater to service all these tanks? There may also be a time when you want to run another piece of equipment (UV filter, carbon reactor to deal with yellowing of the water, etc). I'd plan in some flexibility versus a redundant fuge. Pods are primarily going top down anyway.

[crawdads57]

Thanks! I might ditch the chaeto - you're right. If I do I'll just replace that with rubble or something.

 

Top-offs: I do that by hand on all my other systems, but I think I would have room for an ATO with or without the chaeto on this cabinet.

 

Heater: That's the orange, diagonal line on the right, near the green return pump. My house stays between 75 and 72* here in FL and by the time you get all these lights going and other equipment in this small volume, my heaters rarely even kick on. I have to lift lids to keep it under 80* sometimes. And I don't lose much to evaporation. I would guesstimate losing less than 16oz per day on this rig, but that's just a guess. My humidity is serious in this house.

 

Plumbing: Any advice?

[seabass]

What purpose would the rubble serve? The rock in the display tanks will be the bio-filter. And your display fuge will house the pods. Rubble will just collect detritus and require more maintenance.

 

Plumbing: Any advice?

Any specific questions? For overflows, I'd just get three Glass-Holes overflows (their Super Nano con Dientes is recommended for up to 200gph, and their 700gph overflow is recommended for 200 to 500gph).

[seabass]

Heater: That's the orange, diagonal line on the right, near the green return pump... I don't lose much to evaporation. I would guesstimate losing less than 16oz per day on this rig, but that's just a guess. My humidity is serious in this house.

The heater needs to stay submerged. But the water level fluctuates in the return section; so if the heater resides in this section, it should be on the bottom (not diagonal). If possible, I'd move the heater to another section.

 

Unless mold is growing everywhere from the humidity, I would have guessed that you'd lose more than a gallon a day with all that surface area. But maybe since it is enclosed in the cabinet, you might get less evaporation. Will the cabinet be vented?

[RayWhisperer]

As for small schooling fish, really the only option is certain species of cardinals. Damsels and chromis will kill each other until you have one, or a pair left. Something you need to understand. Fish school for protection from predation. In a closed system, without a threat, they won't school for long. That goes for any and all fish.

 

It's hard to figure much out with your Atari style graphic representation, lol. I think 1" pvc would work fine for a drain. It might be a bit loud, though. I don't remember anything specific offhand. I thought 1" handled like 900 or 1000 gph as a drain. For your emergency drains, I have no idea. I guess you could downsize to 3/4", perhaps even 1/2" if it's only meant to function in the event of a partial block... I think I'd still stick to 1", if it were me. Just remember, all those individual overflow drains will need to be vented.

[crawdads57]

"The heater needs to stay submerged. But the water level fluctuates in the return section; so if the heater resides in this section, it should be on the bottom (not diagonal). If possible, I'd move the heater to another section."

 

I know how to operate a heater, thanks. Excel is not great for drawing up schematics, the heater will be (and remain) submerged.

 

"Unless mold is growing everywhere from the humidity, I would have guessed that you'd lose more than a gallon a day with all that surface area. But maybe since it is enclosed in the cabinet, you might get less evaporation. Will the cabinet be vented?"

 

Haha, no there is no mold growing in my house, but it is very humid at this time of year where I live - and nearly year round. There probably would be mold growing in the house if not for air conditioning. My 15 gal loses about 300mL to evap daily. I'm prepared to find out how much this system would lose and figure out a way to take care of that before anything is living in the system. It will have an open back and an open top per my current plan, but maybe not. I could always add a strategically placed fan if I find I must because of all these lights. I realize how a balance between heat, O2, and evaporation has to be struck. I have always been able to figure out a way previously on both larger and smaller systems.

 

Case in point, the two 12G longs are currently set up as dual planted blackwater tanks - connected. The pH of that system is a little less than 6.5 and the temp is a consistent 79*. Even though the total PPM in this tank is less than 100, I still only lose 1/2 - 2/3s of a gal daily to evap. one is partially covered, the other is totally uncovered. If it was saltwater and everything else was exactly the same the evap would be much less.

 

Going back to the chaeto area - its not going to hurt anything to have the chaeto there. And I know how to keep a sump clean, I would use fist sized peices of rock so that they are easily removed for cleaning when necessary. I have measured all this out and I have the room for the chaeto, rubble or both. Unless you or someone else has a great idea for this area - it would just be wasted space in my opinion.

 

These minutia are not really helping.

 

RayWhisperer's comments on the plumbing are much more helpful. If someone could point me to well written, solid information on the finer points of plumbing I would appreciate it.

 

 

[seabass]

While I assumed that you knew how to operate an aquarium heater; I saw a potential problem, and wanted to make sure that you consider your sump layout and evaporation. It's hard to know what anybody knows, let alone a new member. And while you don't plan on having much evaporation, (with the heater in the return section, and not on the bottom) the potential for the water level to drop low enough for your heater to explode still exists (especially without an ATO, but even they can fail).

 

I didn't think that everything was full of mold, just that the humidity would have to be very high for evaporation not to be a concern. And since you don't have a mold problem, maybe the humidity in your home isn't as high as you think. I run a dehumidifier in the summer, but still see humidity creep up (sometimes as high as 70%); and even then, I still get more than a half gallon of evaporation per day on a 40 breeder (closer to a gallon when humidity is low). Maybe it won't be a problem, it was just something that caught my eye.

[RayWhisperer]

http://www.reefaquarium.com/2012/aquarium-plumbing-basics/

Google is your friend.

[seabass]

Please tell me what you think - I am most interested in everyone's thoughts on my "hydrodynamics" but any advice would be great!

So if you are still open to other ideas, I'd consider having all three display tanks the same (which makes for a cleaner look and would take up less vertical space).

I'd keep the flow through the overflows pretty low (using a valve on the return line if necessary). You've already gotten a couple of ideas for a return pump.

 

You could use the Glass-Holes Super Nano con Dientes overflows that I linked above; however, you could even use a low profile intake strainer (which are cheaper, lower profile, and available in various sizes). This would let you choose 3/4" overflows and returns. Then just connect each overflow to the return on the tank below it. Low profile strainers could possibly work for an emergency overflow as well, but many people just use an elbow with the opening facing up (with or without an intake screen).

 

While I probably wouldn't bother with emergency drain lines myself, I can see the benefit (especially for a refugium). For an emergency drain, I'd connect all three emergency overflows (with tees), to have one emergency drain line into the sump.

 

Plumbing is such a wide topic, is there anything in particular that you are having problems with?

[Tamberav]

How high will the highest tank be? My concern is tanks still need maintenance, cleaning the glass, basting the rock, cleaning the sand bed, removing pests, pruning the algae, fragging corals, ect. Just make sure you can do all that for each tank without it being too tedious. You need to be able to easily access the tallest one and have enough space in between each to also have elbow room.

 

I think shallow long tanks would work best.

[crawdads57]

Seabass, thank you - that's great info. What software did you use to make that? I have kicked around getting a 3rd 12G long, but the thing is that I have a certain rock that I want to incorporate into this system that is 9" tall and covered in some of my favorite corals, already growing nicely. Also, I wanted the height for gorgonians and such. I'm not going to go crazy with SPS, the idea was softies up through LPS with maybe a few birdsnest. The 12.7G high is only about $10 more than the 12G long. I rather like the hour-glass shape this is going to give me. On the other hand I realize the extra height is not my friend in terms of maintenance. Then again the difference is only 7" and in the scheme of things, its worth it to me to be able to stock the corals I want to stock with this extra height.

 

I guess I can't tell you specifically what I'm so worried about concerning the plumbing, but I just hate to go buying diamond bits and drilling holes in nice tanks without knowing exactly what my plan is. I really want to keep all equipment out of view if possible, and that includes the overflows and returns. A LFS owner gave me the idea I was going to go with, adapted from one of the systems at his store. I see a bunch of free, or semi-free CAD software out there. Do you recommend one? Maybe if I draw it up as you did I can get some better feedback.

 

Tamberav, the very top of the highest tank will be at ~80" if I go with my original design. I would need to use a step stool to get into the highest one - which is unfortunately probably the one I would need to get in to the most often, it being the refugium. But to combat this I was going to make a full door of the front of the cabinet and also leave the top of the cabinet open - and use a step stool . The top tank being such a short tank (9.5") I thought It wouldn't be too bad.

 

On the topic of livestock: I really want a gradual change in the brightness of light from top to bottom, the top being the whitest (using the current satellite 36-48" 6500K I already have). The bottom tank would utilize a reef light with the white toned down ans the actinic at max. I want to keep the warm water tube anemones down there - my favorite LFS sells them for about $40. I don't have deep enough sand on any of my current tanks to try them, so that was going to be the focal point of this bottom tank. I'm steering away from the mantis. It looks like sexy shrimp may host in these tube anemones - I was wondering if anyone had experience with that. Getting away from the mantis shrimp opens up a lot of livestock options of course.

[seabass]

What software did you use to make that?

SketchUp. It's free.

[crawdads57]

Thanks, I was just about to download a different one that didn't look all that user friendly - I'll try this one instead.

[crawdads57]

OK, so kinda like this. Let's pretend this is the center display tank, in this case a 12G long. The white pipe on the right is going down into the input chamber. The green dot on the left is the silent overflow, the red dot is the noisy, upturnt overflow that would be the emergency pipe direct to sump.

 

 

 

I would want "combs" or whatever those are called on the tops of these acrylic walls. If I was to do this, which wall should be higher, the input side? OR should they be the same? Where do I place my overflow pipes in relation to the overflow "wall"? The emergency pipe has to by higher than the overflow wall top edge, and lower than the actual aquarium's top edge (of course). But how much do I allow to be safe for surface tension? 1/4" / 1/2" / more?

[seabass]

If I was to do this, which wall should be higher, the input side? OR should they be the same?

If the return side is higher, there will be a waterfall (which you may or may not want).

 

Where do I place my overflow pipes in relation to the overflow "wall"?

You don't necessarily need pipes inside the overflows. You could do it with just bulkheads (staggered, with the lower for the siphon drain, and the upper for the emergency drain). Otherwise, you just need room to install and maintain the plumbing. Pipes will take up more space than you might think (consider using spigot elbows).

 

The emergency pipe has to by higher than the overflow wall top edge, and lower than the actual aquarium's top edge (of course). But how much do I allow to be safe for surface tension? 1/4" / 1/2" / more?

I'm just guessing that 1/2" would be sufficient. However, any hole you drill should leave at least 1" of glass between an edge and the hole.

[crawdads57]

Gotcha, I wouldn't mind using the bulkhead / strainer for my main overflow and the upturnt elbow on a bulkhead for the emergency, but how do I silence the bulkhead / strainer? I drilled and plumbed my 15g cube, but even with the gate valve I have to do a lot of adjustment each time I stop the return pump in order to get the "gurgle" out of my downpipe (which comes out of the side like these will).

 

I'll look into how to vent these, unless someone has pictures or can point me directly to some great pictures.

 

Here's how I did the 15G cube, it is not ideal, but this was my first attempt at this kind of thing.

 

 

 

Its hard to see, but they are just bulkheads and elbows and then I used flexible PVC to get the water to the sump. The lower overflow is pointed down with a strainer and the upper is pointed up. The lower has a gatevalve, the upper does not. I figured out how to make it less noisy eventually, the water goes through filterfloss and a purigen bag before it hits the bioballs (which I just left in there to cut down on noise). I change the filterfloss out twice weekly when I do my small water changes.

[crawdads57]

Is there something wrong with using this kind of T connector on the back of a bulkhead with an "air hole" when utilizing a side-drilled bulkhead? What I mean is, does it have to be bottom drilled for some reason I'm not seeing? I obviously don't want to bottom drill these style of tanks.

 

[seabass]

For an external Durso drain, you can either use an elbow like above, or a tee with a cap and hole drilled in it. The vent tube lets air in, not out. This would be easier than setting up and tuning a siphon drain. And with low flow, it should be pretty quiet.

I don't believe that you vent a siphon drain as you are trying to keep the air out of the drain.