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Cultivated Reef

New to salt, not to fish, sad story already...


FrostbyteNano

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FrostbyteNano

Hello everyone. First of all, I want to say that I have been lurking around and reading the wealth of information on this forum for months and finally got around to joining. I have been keeping freshwater fish for years now and around January of this year I got the bug to go and try salt. I spent five months reading, researching, and learning. I almost turned and walked away a few times after reading things like "saltwater aquariums are go big or go home" or you cannot keep salt water aquariums less than 125 gallons and have them last. What changed my mind finally is I went to a local fish store for the first time in May and saw they had a 0.8 gallon salt water tank with flourishing corals (no fish) and I was inspired. I am lucky to have found this store because the employees there are VERY helpful and really know their stuff. After numerous trips and discussions they convinced me to start a small nano reef tank. I had a Top Fin 5 gallon rimless aquarium at home that was not in use (used it as a guppy fry tank) so I cleaned it out really well and began planning. I bought 10lbs of aragonite live sand and 20lbs of dry rock as well as around 8lbs of aquacultured live rock. Obviously I over bought the sand and the rock, but it turns out I think I did this on purpose. So I started the tank with the dry rock, placed live rock on top, filled with live sand, and filled the tank with pre-mixed salt water from the store with a salinity of 1.024. I allowed the tank to cycle (about 3 weeks until ammonia and nitrites were 0, nitrate 0.5). At that time I added a cleaner shrimp per the advise of the employee at the LFS. The shrimp did very well and immediately got to work running all over the live rock. I forgot to mention I have always topped off with RO/DI water and also did ~25% water changes weekly. Wednesday this week I went and bought a clown fish. I acclimated to temperature and then drip acclimated for around 2 hours before adding him to the tank. I watched this fish in the store for over 30 minutes before selecting it and bringing it home. The salinity in the store is 1.022, mine was 1.024... after drip acclimating the water in the bowl was 1.024 as well. I scooped the fish out by hand and gently added him to the tank. At first he acted normal and seemed to explore a bit, but within 10-15 minutes he was in the corner swimming almost vertically (head down) and did not move around the tank at all. I immediately recognized this as abnormal behavior and tested the water. Ammonia was 0, nitrites 0, nitrates around 1. I had only purigen in the filter which was relatively new (about 2 weeks old). The only other thing I had added to the water was Instant Ocean Reef Accelerator. I think at this point I panicked and did a small water change using a cup and replaced it with more of the heated pre-mixed saltwater I had purchased. I left the light off and figured if I continued to watch the clown I would go nuts, so I sat down and watched TV with my wife. Before bed I used a dim light to look into the tank and at this point the clown was laying in the sand and breathing very heavy. The cleaner shrimp would go over to him and he would dart up for just a second and then come back down and rest on the sand still breathing very heavy. Now I started to panic even more and figured it had to be oxygen since I knew the water tested ok. I angled the output of the return more towards the surface and also added an airstone at a very low rate to see if that would help. I stayed up and watched a dark tank for an hour and finally went to bed because I had to work the next morning. I barely slept and woke up 4 hours early for work. I immediately checked on the fish and he was still laying on the bottom and breathing heavy. Not much I could do at 3:00 am, so I did another water change, about a gallon, and left the light off. I am a registered nurse and I work 12 hour shifts so I left for work and tried not to think about it. The whole time I was at work I pictured a dead fish in the tank with the shrimp eating it and ammonia flooding the water.... My wife texted me when she got home from work and told me that he was still alive but also had not improved at all. I left work at 7:15pm and drove to Petco (I know,... I know, but it is the closest place to my house) to ask for advice. The guy working actually did seem to know what he was talking about and recommended API stress coat+ and Prime as a last ditch effort. I got home and added appropriate amounts of both to water I had scooped out of the aquarium in a cup, mixed it, then slowly added them in. I kinda knew at this point it was too late, but I just watched and prayed. Well less than an hour later the clown was upside down. I was devastated as i removed him from the tank. I am totally unsure as to what happened. I called the store that I had purchased the clown from and spoke to their "reef expert". He told me that it sounded as if I had done everything correctly and had no idea what would have killed the fish but not at all harmed the shrimp. He told me he would replace the fish for free whenever i was ready to get another one.

 

Since this all happened, I have purchased an IM fusion nano 10 after reading all of the reviews and looking at the builds from users on this forum. I should be getting it soon. I have not gone and gotten another fish yet but I did get two Turbo snails just for fun. I am excited to get this new aquarium wet but I am also now a little apprehensive. Did I do something wrong? Does anyone have any idea what happened to the clown? I am just so confused. Any advice or input here would be great! Thanks so much!

 

Rob

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Once the salinity matches you can add the fish. A .02 difference I wouldn't even drip. Did you temp acclimate the fish before dropping it in? Sounds like you did alot of research and found a good store willing to replace the fish. That is a rarity. Good luck with the next one.

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Hammerstone

Welcome!!

 

Hmmm. What did you clean the tank with? Usually I would think the shrimp would go first if the water was contaminated. Do you have a powerhead and a heater?

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FrostbyteNano

Welcome!!

 

Hmmm. What did you clean the tank with? Usually I would think the shrimp would go first if the water was contaminated. Do you have a powerhead and a heater?

Yes, I have a cobalt 50w heater and a hydor pico with flow deflector and the aquarium has a pump built in that pumps the opposite direction. And yes, I floated the bag for a half hour before starting to drip acclimate I didn't have a heater in the bowl I used to drip acclimate but I did have a digital thermometer probe in there and when I put the fish in, it was reading 77, tank temperature is 78. I can't imagine that would be the problem. The tank I cleaned with fresh water and a diluted vinegar solution. No bleach or chemicals. I then flushed everything with fresh water again and even put in baking soda to neutralize any acids potentially left behind. Then rinsed again thoroughly and allowed to air dry. When I kept it as a fry tank, it was bare bottom with just some java moss randomly spread out in it. No ferts ever. I am still at a complete loss as to what happened to the clown. Oh and I forgot to mention in my first novel that the clowns color was normal, no signs of ich, no bulging eyes, no flushing of stripes.

 

And thanks for the welcome!

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msparklym13

HI! Welcome and I am sorry your first fish didn't make it :-(

It sounds like you are very prepared and if your shrimp is ok- Well it could have just been the fish!

I had a similar situation with a Royal Gramma months ago. All livestock fine, fish seemed great at LFS. Brought the fish home and drip acclimated. Netted and put in tank. He darted into rocks then came out acting really bizarre. The next day I saw him briefly then he hid again. Never saw him again(I think I found remains but still not sure). This was months ago. It never happened again and still have no clue what went wrong. The only thing I can think of is the poor little fish stressed out :-(

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Welcome and I'm so sorry your start was so traumatic :( The only thing I can think of is oxygen or lack of. What do you have for flow in your tank and what is the surface agitation like? Grasping at straws here, but it's my only thought as to what else could be the problem.

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FrostbyteNano

Thanks for the reply msparklym,

 

You know, stress is a funny term that we like to use to describe just about any "abnormal" or "unexpected" behavior in fish, but really, it has so many potential causes it is damn near impossible to put your finger on exactly what it was. I highly doubt it was water, because it tested well and I have been told by quite a few people that the shrimp would die before a clown fish if something was off. I know someone who started a reef tank with dry sand and dry rock, filled it up with water and dumped two clown fish in that day. This tank is now doing extremely well and the clowns lived through the whole cycle without any problems. I am not one to think that it is ok to cycle a tank with a fish in it but many people do. This guy's ammonia got to sky high amounts before he even started to get nitrite and the clowns did fine. They are now a mated pair and some of the most active fish I have ever seen. Clowns are hardy and supposedly good beginner fish.... and I managed to kill one is a cycled (however very immature) tank. I just feel like i've failed. I'm scared to get another one because I am so worried this will happen again.


Welcome and I'm so sorry your start was so traumatic :( The only thing I can think of is oxygen or lack of. What do you have for flow in your tank and what is the surface agitation like? Grasping at straws here, but it's my only thought as to what else could be the problem.

I have a hydor Pico aimed up at the surface that is causing plenty of surface agitation. And I did add an air stone shortly after I noticed the behavior so I don't think it is that. And wouldn't the shrimp have shown signs of that as well? I know the fish is more active so its metabolic demand for oxygen is greater, but I highly doubt the tank was starved for oxygen so much that it would have caused irreversible damage to the fish. Who knows though, its possible. I'm still learning. Its just frustrating because I feel like I failed even after doing months of research. I guess you live and you learn. Thanks for the support everyone! I am looking forward to starting fresh with the IM Fusion 10!

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Nano sapiens

What was the time period from when the fish was initally bagged to when the bag was opened at home?

 

I had the same experience with a small Clownfish, too. What can happen if the fish is in the sealed bag too long is that pH drops due to CO2 respiration and ammonia builds as it is excreated from the fish's gills. The form of ammonia at lower pH is not very toxic in contrast to higher pH, so when you open the bag the pH rises as CO2 is liberated and the fish experiences ammonia toxicity. Most commom sympton is burning of the gills (which we can't see easily) and the fish is then unable to respire properly and often perishes.

 

The Liveaquaria webstie has a section devoted to fish and invertebrate acclimation and I'd suggest following their recommendations:

 

http://www.liveaquaria.com/PIC/article.cfm?aid=157

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Did I do something wrong? Does anyone have any idea what happened to the clown? I am just so confused. Any advice or input here would be great! Thanks so much!

 

Rob

 

 

Don't drip fish for long periods if salinity is close. If there is a huge gap, then match a quarantine tank to the fish's salinity and slowly raise it over a few days.

 

Dripping fish causes more stress and if the fish have been bagged for awhile can cause an ammonia spike when the bag is opened.

 

Best you can do is add water a cup at a time or so, make it no longer than 30 min in the bag and in they go. I personally just drop my fish in if the salinity is within a few points.

 

FYI: DO drip inverts like starfish, urchins, shrimp ect. (not coral).

 

FYI, the fish could have already been sick. They can look perfect in the store and be dead 24 hours later although you probably would have seen other signs, but not always. (Maybe think about making your 5g a QT tank).

 

Be sure to check the DATE of any article you read, this hobby is fast evolving and many articles/posts that claim you need a 125g/55g ect are probably old. I try and find info within 2 years, the more recent the better. Nano-reef is a great resource for small tanks but if you use the search function you will still find many outdated posts/methods, so sort it by date :)

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Sounds like you have your parameters in check.I know it sucks,but it was probably something wrong with the fish,and not your tank,I don't drip acclimate but float the bag and add about a cup of water at a time and I usually don't float it more than around 20 minutes,I know some may disagree with this way but has worked for me but then again I've only been at it for about 10 months and have acclimated 4 fish.I understand how you feel,I hate losing anything in my tanks,but keep learning,keep doing research,sounds like you have a good lfs.good luck to you!

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Hammerstone

I wonder if the drip acclimation for two hours could have dropped the temperature and then the fish had temperature shock when you put him in?

 

I think you said you got your powerhead after this happened??

 

Just grasping at straws like someone said. Or it could have just been the fish. Everyone I bet has lost a fish. Don't beat yourself up about it. And don't give up!!! Should like you loved that fish and tried very hard to do everything right. I really have no idea.

 

Good luck on your next fish!! And iam sorry for your loss.

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FrostbyteNano

So I returned to the store I bought the clown from and after talking with the same guy I dealt with the first time he said I would be fine to get another clown, but also said I could try a damsel and see how thathe goes before replacing the clown. I took his advice and bought a blue damselfish. He is doing very well so far however is hiding a lot. I have read and this appears to be normal behavior. The guy at the store recommended feeding it marine pellet food to start and then introduce mysis sp? shrimp as he gets used to his new home. I bought the pellet food he suggested but it just floats. I left it there for a bit and then scooped it back out. I think I am paranoid now and even though I am pretty confident this fish is displaying normal behavior about 16 hours after entering the tank I am still concerned. Here is a picture. I hope this works. I'm trying to do this from my cell phone.

 

Iace73.jpg

I wonder if the drip acclimation for two hours could have dropped the temperature and then the fish had temperature shock when you put him in?

 

I think you said you got your powerhead after this happened??

 

No the powerhead was already there. All I did was aim it more towards the surface so provide better surface agitation. And by the way I have removed the air stone.

 

The shrimp is still doing great and shortly after putting the damsel in the shrimp went to cleaning him and he stayed there for a bit before darting to another hiding spot.

IIzJpD.jpg

And this is the clown during the 10 minutes that he was acting somewhat normally.

 

pP2cru.jpg

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I'm sorry you had issues but don't give up.

I lost one of my first clowns and with no known cause.

 

Your water seems to be fine and the shrimp being alive is proof to that. The shrimp would go first. I would not do additional water changes unless there was an issue-

 

I never drip acclimate fish. I float bag no more than 30 mins, then scoop the fish out and add to the tank.

 

It doesn't sound like you did anything wrong. The fish may have been stressed or even may have an internal parasite.

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FrostbyteNano

I'm sorry you had issues but don't give up.

I lost one of my first clowns and with no known cause.

 

Your water seems to be fine and the shrimp being alive is proof to that. The shrimp would go first. I would not do additional water changes unless there was an issue-

 

I never drip acclimate fish. I float bag no more than 30 mins, then scoop the fish out and add to the tank.

 

It doesn't sound like you did anything wrong. The fish may have been stressed or even may have an internal parasite.

Thanks. That really makes me feel better. You have no idea. So far so good with the damsel. The fusion 10 just shipped today so I will be doing a build thread when it arrives. I'll keep you posted

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I'm sorry you had issues but don't give up.

I lost one of my first clowns and with no known cause.

Your water seems to be fine and the shrimp being alive is proof to that. The shrimp would go first. I would not do additional water changes unless there was an issue-

I never drip acclimate fish. I float bag no more than 30 mins, then scoop the fish out and add to the tank.

It doesn't sound like you did anything wrong. The fish may have been stressed or even may have an internal parasite.

This is what I like to do. Sometimes a lfs keeps their salinity just too low however. This works great with a sump, but also without with a bit of finesse. Dump out as much water as possible from the bag. Clip the bag floating in the sump and run the drip line down. Temp stays tank temperature and you can go about your buisness and clean up the tank or whatever while it is dripping itself.

I do the same thing without a sump by just taking a turkey baste full out and adding a basterful of tank water. A quick lfs drive shouldn't be long enough to add enough ammonia to harm anything.

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FrostbyteNano

OK so I am totally confused and sad. It has happened again. My damsel fish died last night surviving just 26-28 hours in my tank. I have no idea what is going on. The shrimp, two turbo snails, and two hermits seem to be completely unaffected. But why do I keep losing fish? I called the LFS that I got both fish from and they have not had any deaths. He mentioned that it could be the beneficial bacteria is using up all the oxygen and that I may have an overabundance of it between the live sand, live rock, and bacterial culture I've added. I don't know about that. I would think if it was a gas exchange issue that the fish would be swimming to the surface rather than staying near the bottom. I did notice later yesterday his gills were looking a little red so I immediately thought ammonia toxicity. I went to the store and bought a cheap HOB filter and put some fluval ammonia remover in it. I also added prime and did a small water change, probably less than one gallon. The highest ammonia reading I got yesterday was somewhere between 0 and 0.25 as far as my eyes can tell.

 

Nkr9IQ.jpg

 

That happened after I found this worm thing coming out of a hole in my live rock. I am completely stumped. What could be killing the fish but not the inverts that is not showing up in testing?

This is the dead worm thing that I found hanging out from the bottom of the live rock.

 

gvp4FO.jpg

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FrostbyteNano

OK so I'm still trying to figure this out. From what I've read, the API saltwater test for ammonia is not reliable. Is this true?

I am convinced that my fish are dying from either low oxygen (anoxia) or ammonia poisoning. I don't think it is oxygen because I do and did have plenty of surface agitation. And I don't think it was ammonia because I find it hard to believe that the API test could be THAT far off, and furthermore how would such high ammonia levels kill two different fish in 24 hours separated by two days and the total of 3 100% water changes not kill inverts? I just don't get it. By the way, the shrimp, snails, and red legged hermits are doing just fine. This is the extra bag of the live sand thato I used. Is this ok?

 

h5fqhD.jpg

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CronicReefer

In going to propose two reason why your fish are dying that are unlikely but possible (excluding that worm). The first could be due to internal bleeding. It is extremely difficult to see but basically the fish will have a darker spot on its body that is not part of its markings. The fish will always die if it has internal bleeding. The second could be cyanide poisoning from collecting. The fish can appear totally healthy but in reality it is dying. When I buy fish from the store I always ask them to be fed to see if they eat normally. The second thing I look for is fish being kept in invertebrate tanks. Inverts must be kept at normal salinity and this will allow any parasites the fish might have to be visible. Fish kept at low salinity may be carrying a parasite but because of lowered salinity the parasite goes dormant. I do not think your fish died due to ammonia, oxygen, or disease/parasite.

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This is a very odd situation.

 

If ammonia was present the inverts would die too.

Did you test the ammonia before or after you added the media?

 

I don't think you need to continue doing water changes.

I would think doing water changes after adding a fish may add stress to an already stressed fish. Catching and moving the fish is stressful.

 

Whats your ph and alk at?

 

Have you added anything else to the water?

 

Are you running carbon?

 

Were the fish from the same tank?

 

What type of water are you using?

 

Sorry for all the questions- trying to eliminate things to determine the cause.

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Hammerstone

Well damn, this is a mystery. Could it be from the rocks? No, because the shrimp is like the canary in a coal mine. I have no clue?

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