Question about Cycling

[xAyanex]

So today marks day 19 since my tank started cycling (live rock/sand added):

 

My ammonia peaked, my nitrite peaked, and my nitrates are a ridiculous 80.

Parameters:

Temp 77

Salinity 34 ppt/1.024 specific gravity

pH 8.0

Ammonia 0

Nitrite 0 (finally!-Was super high for a long time, then 0.25 for a few days, now zero!)

Nitrate 80

 

From here I know I should do a big water change(s) before adding anything to get nitrates way down, but here's my question:

 

I thought an algae bloom (of diatoms) was supposed to occur during my cycle, but it never did. I cycled without lights so that could be part of it. Most of my research said that people had algae, added a CUC, and then added fish. If I add CUC now, wouldn't it just die? Because there's no algae in my tank, so...

 

What do I do? Just jump straight to adding the two clownfish I want, and wait for the CUC till I see algae?

 

Or do I have to wait longer for the algae bloom, then add CUC, then add fish?

 

Edit: Or I could add a very small CUC like just a couple snails, and the fish? And add more CUC if needed later on?

 

Thank you for your time.

[North Borders]

How were you cycling? Did you do liquid ammonia additions or decaying matter of some sort?

[xAyanex]

How were you cycling? Did you do liquid ammonia additions or decaying matter of some sort?

I bought cured live rock from the LFS 40 minutes from me. Drove home and threw it in. There was die-off which caused the ammonia spike (up to 4.0 I think- I don't have my paper in front of me). Then it went down and Nitrites spiked to well above the 5.0 on the chart for several days. During that time ammonia went to zero. Nitrates started to rise and nitrites one day fell overnight to 0.25 for several days, now finally 0 and nitrates sky high.

 

So I suppose decaying matter.

From my reading, I think I'd be okay to add the couple clownfish and a couple snails or whatever clean up crew helps with detritus and doesn't just rely on algae (I haven't research clean up crews yet, I still have water changes to do so I have plenty of time)

 

Edit: Maybe 1 or 2 Nassarius snails?

[North Borders]

How big of a tank is it?

[xAyanex]

Its in my signature-Biocube29

[tetraodon]

i would suggest doing a couple water changes before adding anything alive to the tank, nassarus snails are more carnivorous i would turn your lights on and let a bit of algae build yup, you can add hermits first since they dont eat just algae,

[North Borders]

Oh derp haha yeah now I see. I'd second the water changes. You don't really lose beneficial bacteria by changing out the water. Do 2 or 3 large ones(80%+) to get that nitrate down down down.

[tetraodon]

Oh derp haha yeah now I see. I'd second the water changes. You don't really lose beneficial bacteria by changing out the water. Do 2 or 3 large ones(80%+) to get that nitrate down down down.

if 80% is done, make sure to match the temp and all params before adding the water just to make sure the bacteria isnt knocked out by temp swings. another option is to do like 20% every other day, the less the water change amount the more frequently you should change it, 6 of one half dozen of the other

[xAyanex]

i would suggest doing a couple water changes before adding anything alive to the tank, nassarus snails are more carnivorous i would turn your lights on and let a bit of algae build yup, you can add hermits first since they dont eat just algae,

I will have my lights on regularly now that the cycle is complete. I already said I'd do water changes. Yes, I read nassarius snails don't eat algae-that is precisely why I would get them-because there is no algae yet.

 

I would prefer to avoid hermits for now as I have read they can be destructive later on.

if 80% is done, make sure to match the temp and all params before adding the water just to make sure the bacteria isnt knocked out by temp swings. another option is to do like 20% every other day, the less the water change amount the more frequently you should change it, 6 of one half dozen of the other

Thank you for this advice! I have a heater/thermometer in the tank and a heater/thermometer for my freshly mixed saltwater, so I will be matching the temp.

 

Also, I would much prefer to do small changes of 20% every other day or so until the nitrates are down to an appropriate level. That was my plan.

[seabass]

With nitrate in the 80 area, I'd change out all the water prior to adding livestock. Then I'd turn the lights on.

 

Getting algae isn't a requirement. However, a diatom bloom usually occurs after the cycle has become established.

 

Yes, you can add omnivores and carnivores right now (and very lightly feed some fish food to them a couple of times a week). So a couple nassarius snails are fine. Once you get a little algae, get your herbivores.

 

If you really want to add your young clownfish pair at this point, you can (then wait a week or two before adding anything else). I'd be tempted to wait until the diatom bloom has passed (but that isn't required). I would definitely hold off on getting coral until after the diatom bloom and you have a reasonable cleanup crew of herbivores, omnivores, and carnivores.

 

EDIT: On an Android, so I missed a few responses due to slow typing (and repeated a bunch of good suggestions).

[tetraodon]

I will have my lights on regularly now that the cycle is complete. I already said I'd do water changes. Yes, I read nassarius snails don't eat algae-that is precisely why I would get them-because there is no algae yet.

 

I would prefer to avoid hermits for now as I have read they can be destructive later on.

my nassarious snails love to hide until i feed my lionfish, then they swarm like little tiny sharks. i do highly recomend fighting conchs, great snail. i have two blue legs, worst they have ever done is sit on coral or steel food, they are the better hermits. but its very much a personal choice, check out reef cleaners for CUCs

[North Borders]

I've been pretty happy with my hermits so far. I have a couple blue legged and a pair of scarlets. You might consider an emerald crab or two as well. I've seen a couple horror stories about emeralds going rogue, but mine has been a really nice addition so far. He's always munching on algae.

[xAyanex]

With nitrate in the 80 area, I'd change out all the water prior to adding livestock. Then I'd turn the lights on.

 

Getting algae isn't a requirement. However, a diatom bloom usually occurs after the cycle has become established.

 

Yes, you can add omnivores and herbivores right now (and very lightly feed some fish food to them a couple of times a week). So a couple nassarius snails are fine. Once you get a little algae, get your herbivores.

 

If you really want to add your young clownfish pair at this point, you can (then wait a week or two before adding anything else). However, I'd be tempted to wait until the diatonic bloom has passed (but that isn't required). I would definitely hold off on getting coral until after the diatonic bloom and you have a reasonable cleanup crew of herbivores, omnivores, and carnivores.

Thank you, I was hoping you would respond!

 

I will definitely change water until nitrate is less than 5. This will likely take me several days as I will do smaller water changes.

 

I will add a couple nassarius snails after my nitrate is less than 5. Edit: I will feed them lightly a couple times a week as you suggested.

 

Then I will put my lights on a regular schedule, and wait a couple weeks hoping for algae. After a couple weeks if I have had a diatom bloom that has passed, I'll add the two small clownfish. When the algae shows up I'll add more CUC that is appropriate.

 

I don't plan on getting my first coral until 2-4 weeks after getting the clownfish. And if I have to wait longer until algae has established and CUC has been established, I absolutely will! Thank you everyone so much for all your help!!

[xAyanex]

my nassarious snails love to hide until i feed my lionfish, then they swarm like little tiny sharks. i do highly recomend fighting conchs, great snail. i have two blue legs, worst they have ever done is sit on coral or steel food, they are the better hermits. but its very much a personal choice, check out reef cleaners for CUCs

I don't have a very deep sandbed-like maybe only an inch. I read they require deep sandbeds. How deep is your sandbed?

I've been pretty happy with my hermits so far. I have a couple blue legged and a pair of scarlets. You might consider an emerald crab or two as well. I've seen a couple horror stories about emeralds going rogue, but mine has been a really nice addition so far. He's always munching on algae.

Thank you for the recommendations-I will consider them when putting together my CUC in the future when my tank has more stuff to clean up, haha.

[seabass]

I have nassarius snails in a bare bottom tank. They do like to bury themselves, but a deep sand bed isn't required (but an inch of sand would be good).

[xAyanex]

I have nassarius snails in a bare bottom tank. They do like to bury themselves, but a deep sand bed isn't required (and an inch of sand would be good).

I was referring to the fighting conch.

 

Good to know, though, incase I ever want to go bare bottom! I have heard nothing but good things.

[seabass]

I have one of those in my 100 gallon tank with an inch (no more than two) of sand in it. However, a 29 gallon tank might be a little small for one.

[Polarcollision]

I have a healthy fighting conch in 24 gallons, 1-2" sand. You don't need it for your ecosystem at this point though, unless you want it as a pet.

 

You may also never see the diatom bloom, or hair algae bloom. I never had hair algae with the 24 gallon, but I learned to live with it in the 8 gallon.

 

Fish can handle nitrates up to 20 ppm, though its hard on them. Anything higher becomes toxic, much like when our kidneys fail. Nice plan to wait until 5 ppm.

 

I despise hermits, but have allowed a red-legged mexican hermit into a tank. Read up on them and see what you think.

 

One last thing, I've never, ever in 3 years matched temperature on water changes. room ranges between 64-72 degrees which drops tank to as low as 68 from 78.5 when I change 5 gallons. Have never had issues with even sensitive acropora. I suspect other chemistry parameter swings are more likely culprits for coral stressors.

[tetraodon]

I was referring to the fighting conch.

 

Good to know, though, incase I ever want to go bare bottom! I have heard nothing but good things.

my conch doesnt burrow as deep as my nassarious, my sand bed is only about an inch or so deep, just enough to cover my snails shell,

[xAyanex]

I have a healthy fighting conch in 24 gallons, 1-2" sand. You don't need it for your ecosystem at this point though, unless you want it as a pet.

 

You may also never see the diatom bloom, or hair algae bloom. I never had hair algae with the 24 gallon, but I learned to live with it in the 8 gallon.

 

Fish can handle nitrates up to 20 ppm, though its hard on them. Anything higher becomes toxic, much like when our kidneys fail. Nice plan to wait until 5 ppm.

 

I despise hermits, but have allowed a red-legged mexican hermit into a tank. Read up on them and see what you think.

 

One last thing, I've never, ever in 3 years matched temperature on water changes. room ranges between 64-72 degrees which drops tank to as low as 68 from 78.5 when I change 5 gallons. Have never had issues with even sensitive acropora. I suspect other chemistry parameter swings are more likely culprits for coral stressors.

Wow, thank you for all the great information! I may consider a conch in the future, then.

 

Perhaps I could wait a couple weeks with the regular light schedule on (after my nitrates are down) and if I never see algae, just go ahead and add the couple clownfish anyway?

 

I will definitely read up on the red-legged mexican hermit.

 

The water change temperature bit is interesting to know! I am new to saltwater tanks so I've never had coral. Thank you for letting me know your experience! Do you try to match any of the chemistry parameters?

 

my conch doesnt burrow as deep as my nassarious, my sand bed is only about an inch or so deep, just enough to cover my snails shell,

Thank you for responding! I will consider a conch in the future.

[Clown79]

Looks like you're on the right track:)

 

Definitley water change time or a few. Once the nitrates are lower you can start adding a few hermits or nassarius. You can feed them some food.

 

Hermits get a bad reputation but i love mine. Scarlets rarely go after snails and little ones i find go after cerith snails, they don't like the trochus shells.

If you keep a few empty shells in the tank it prevents them going after snails.

 

You don't need a deep sand bed for nassarius. I do recommend vacuuming non deep sand beds at water change time, this helps maintain low nutrient levels in the tank.

 

Once you have added a small cuc keep testing and once you're in the clear of no spikes in ammonia then its time for your clowns.

 

I myself never had a diatom bloom in my 10g-mine went straight to standard green algae

In my 15g I had diatoms about a mnth after cycling.

 

Have fun, go slow:)

[xAyanex]

Looks like you're on the right track:)

 

Definitley water change time or a few. Once the nitrates are lower you can start adding a few hermits or nassarius. You can feed them some food.

 

Hermits get a bad reputation but i love mine. Scarlets rarely go after snails and little ones i find go after cerith snails, they don't like the trochus shells.

If you keep a few empty shells in the tank it prevents them going after snails.

 

You don't need a deep sand bed for nassarius. I do recommend vacuuming non deep sand beds at water change time, this helps maintain low nutrient levels in the tank.

 

Once you have added a small cuc keep testing and once you're in the clear of no spikes in ammonia then its time for your clowns.

 

I myself never had a diatom bloom in my 10g-mine went straight to standard green algae

In my 15g I had diatoms about a mnth after cycling.

 

Have fun, go slow:)

Thank you so much for all the helpful advice!!

[Polarcollision]

Wow, thank you for all the great information! I may consider a conch in the future, then.

 

Perhaps I could wait a couple weeks with the regular light schedule on (after my nitrates are down) and if I never see algae, just go ahead and add the couple clownfish anyway?

 

I will definitely read up on the red-legged mexican hermit.

 

The water change temperature bit is interesting to know! I am new to saltwater tanks so I've never had coral. Thank you for letting me know your experience! Do you try to match any of the chemistry parameters?

 

Thank you for responding! I will consider a conch in the future.

 

Sure thing! - Paying it forward since NR taught me most of what I know about reefing. When you're confident nitrite and ammonia are handled and you can keep nitrates on the lower end, then add a fish. Your tank is mostly sand and live rock at the moment, right? If so, you could probably even change out 90% of your water all at once to get a quick jump on the process -- as long as the rock isn't exposed to air longer than 10-15 minutes. They way I see it: what's the benefit of leaving the nutrients around to convert into nasties? Plus, adding the fish will probably help your tank mature.

 

Oh, on the matching chemistry question, yes. I run my tank parameters as close to the mixed salt as I'm able so that I can change out 90% of the water without worrying about the fancy pants acros dying. This is actually the thing that I think would have helped me the most starting out, so I added a lot of details in the current Featured Reef Profile. http://www.nano-reef.com/featured/_/2016/polarcollision-r108

 

The mexican hermit will keep a minor hair algae outbreak at bay, so will a sea hare if it's really bad - as in nothing but hair algae bad. LOL If you don't mind, I'd like to refocus your attention to the nitrate and phosphate values as a priority over hair algae. Hair algae really will eventually just disappear one day as long as you focus on keeping nitrates below 5 and PO4 somewhere around 0.03.

[xAyanex]

 

Sure thing! - Paying it forward since NR taught me most of what I know about reefing. When you're confident nitrite and ammonia are handled and you can keep nitrates on the lower end, then add a fish. Your tank is mostly sand and live rock at the moment, right? If so, you could probably even change out 90% of your water all at once to get a quick jump on the process -- as long as the rock isn't exposed to air longer than 10-15 minutes. They way I see it: what's the benefit of leaving the nutrients around to convert into nasties? Plus, adding the fish will probably help your tank mature.

 

Oh, on the matching chemistry question, yes. I run my tank parameters as close to the mixed salt as I'm able so that I can change out 90% of the water without worrying about the fancy pants acros dying. This is actually the thing that I think would have helped me the most starting out, so I added a lot of details in the current Featured Reef Profile. http://www.nano-reef.com/featured/_/2016/polarcollision-r108

 

The mexican hermit will keep a minor hair algae outbreak at bay, so will a sea hare if it's really bad - as in nothing but hair algae bad. LOL If you don't mind, I'd like to refocus your attention to the nitrate and phosphate values as a priority over hair algae. Hair algae really will eventually just disappear one day as long as you focus on keeping nitrates below 5 and PO4 somewhere around 0.03.

Yes, my tank is just sand and live rock other than 1 starfish. I don't know if I feel comfortable changing that much water all at once, and I only have two 5 gal buckets-1 for dirty water and 1 for clean water. Since my tank really only holds like 22ish gallons, I'll probably do 25% water changes until nitrate is <5. But I had wondered if live rock could be exposed to air and how long, so I'm very glad you addressed that.

 

I planned on keeping my parameters as close to the mixed salt as I could. I do not plan on having acros because I am running stock lighting. I already read your featured reef profile-thank you for including so much information I can learn from and not just showing off what you did well, haha! Seriously!

 

It's not really that I'm focused on algae, it's more that I want to make sure my tank is cycled. I know once ammonia and nitrite are 0 and nitrate goes up, that's the bacterial population established. But I did a lot of reading on cycling that said just because those hit 0, doesn't necessarily mean the cycle is complete because there are algae cycles as well (ex. diatoms and hair algae). I don't know if there are benefits to waiting for the algae to cycle before adding fish, or if it is safe to add fish and the algae is just due to nutrients in the water, etc. which is why I started this thread.

 

I'm thinking algae shows up due to excess nutrients for the most part (like hair algae). I'm not worried about not being able to handle it or when it will disappear. I just wanted to know if I need to see the algae cycle before adding fish. (Which I believe the answer is no). I am aware the nitrate needs to be <5 and phosphate <0.03, but I am glad you are telling me anyway, because I'm new and you don't know what knowledge I may or may not have. Always better safe than sorry, and I have seen a lot of other people new to saltwater aquariums ask some pretty basic questions where it's like "yeah.. you should probably know this already if you have fish and corals in the tank", etc.

 

Also, I think you're trying to point out that whether I see the algae or not isn't what matters. It's the water chemistry I need to be worried about, and the algae will do whatever it's going to do according to that.

 

I feel like I have a better understanding going forward.

[Clown79]

Algae presence doesn't mean a cycle is done. It can start developing during a cycle or after a cycle. Every tank is different.

 

My 15g cycled in 2 weeks, my nitrates only went up to 20 and one regular water change dropped it to acceptible levels. I didn't experience diatoms till a mnth after cycling. Then a short spurt with cyano.

 

My 10g took 5 weeks to cycle and had a very short diatom bloom. I have more algae issues in this tank.

 

The only difference in set up with tanks, 15g had 80% liverock 20% dry

10g had 80% dry and 20% liverock.

 

Aquariums will go through various algae "cycles" usually the first 6-7mnths as the tank matures.

 

If you keep nutrient levels on the lower end you won't experience major algae issues.

 

If you aren't comfortable changing out 80% of the water, doing multiple smaller ones is fine, it may just take longer to lower the nitrates.

Are you running an hang on filter on this tank with any media in it?

 

I try to give new reefers some heads up advice so they can prevent major issues.