Disease ID Help

[VCK]

My Dwarf Flame Angel has a few developing black spots on the top of his head, an area which he shouldn't or of which I thought did not develop the distinctive black marks flame angels have. I'm worried it may be a type of ich named "black ich" but, I have never had experience with ID'ing fish disease or other types of these issues. It looks like a black smudge on the forehead. Another possibility is that the spots are from a piece of equipment the flame angel might be accidentally rubbing against whilst swimming about or feeding. Here is a link to a video of my tank and fish.

 

https://youtu.be/UFWHwdopLXY

 

I apologize for the finicky behavior, he/she is just camera shy which is why it may be hard to tell by the vid and so I wasn't able to get any quality pics because he never sits still for me. Any help or information is appreciated. My tank is a 20g FOWLR w/ a deep sand bed and, has been running for a bit over a year now and he/she is the only fish.

[CronicReefer]

Well for one a 20g is too small for a flame angel which is probably leading to more aggressive behavior from the fish, especially if it is stressed. Stress also makes the fish more susceptible to disease, but I strongly suggest you consider a new home for your fish. How long has it been since you added any other fish and were they wild caught or tank bred? If you are running a FOWLR you could try a product called chloroquine phosphate, but only after you have verified it is indeed black ich. It also should be showing other symptoms besides black spots. It is as close to a cure-all as you can get for parasites but should only be purchased in pure powder form from a vet.

[VCK]

I'd like to keep the discussion on whatever it might be rather than the size of my tank. I know the recommended size tank for a Flame but, he has plenty of space, flow, live rock and, is honestly treated like a king. Plus considering I bought him from a fish store in a 20g w/ 15 other fish he has been happy as ever since. He isn't acting weird and I haven't added anything to the tank since setup I'm simply worried about a - so far - harmless spot on his head.

[VCK]

If anyone could give me information or pics regarding "black ich" that'd be great or a first hand experience. I just need help ID'ing whatever it might be.

[Mariaface]

Sounds like the start of 'hole in the head'. Ich wouldn't be drawn to the top of the head and would instead prefer someplace less protected, like the inside of gills. So scale of one to ten: How sure are you that he's not stressed, and is 'treated like a king'? Because I'd really look into putting this fish in a bigger tank, feeding it better food, and supplementing with vitamins and/or amino and fatty acids.

 

Causes

There are several suspected contributors to the development of this disease, but one of the most commonly described is that of a vitamin deficiency, particularly Vitamin C. Chronic stress has also been suggested as contributing to the formation of the disease, as has stray voltage within the tank. Some forms of activated carbon have been thought to cause mineral imbalance and increase the incidence of the disease.

Signs

The signs of the marine form of this disease are similar to the freshwater form and include ulcers and erosions in the skin primarily located along the lateral line and head area. These lesions may start as pinpoint holes, but then grow in size. Secondary bacterial infections may develop.

Treatment

Treatment of marine hole in the head disease involves addressing all of the potential causes of the disease. Providing a vitamin supplement containing Vitamin C or providing a constant supply of fresh plants in the form of edible algae or seaweed strips is important. Make sure the diet is varied and meets the specific needs of the fish you are feeding.

Check your tank for stray voltage and properly ground your tank if any voltage is present. A hand-held volt meter can be used to measure voltage. Some recent reports have indicated that this may be a more common problem than originally expected.

Maintaining excellent water quality and preventing fluctuations in temperature will also help prevent stress, which will in turn help keep the immune system strong and functioning at the best possible level. Stress from poor water quality, overcrowding, aggression, or poor nutrition will all suppress the immune system making the fish more susceptible to all diseases or infections.

Prevention

If your aquarium houses tangs or angelfish, you will want to make sure that you are aware of the signs and symptoms of marine hole in the head disease. Feed your fish an appropriate diet and make sure that edible algae, seaweed, or a suitable alternative is always present. In addition, adding a vitamin supplement to the food is a good practice. Test your tank for stray voltage periodically and make sure you have a functioning ground installed in your aquarium. Keep water quality at the highest possible standards and avoid overcrowding or aggressive fish.

By following these basic precautions and providing good husbandry, you can keep your fish free from this common and potentially devastating disease.

[VCK]

Sounds like the start of 'hole in the head'.

 

Causes[/size]

There are several suspected contributors to the development of this disease, but one of the most commonly described is that of a vitamin deficiency, particularly Vitamin C. Chronic stress has also been suggested as contributing to the formation of the disease, as has stray voltage within the tank. Some forms of activated carbon have been thought to cause mineral imbalance."

 

About a month and a half ago I installed a new hob filter which had a different carbon filter than the last hob I had. If this is the case what carbon filters should I be using? Are there ones less susceptible to causing those deficiencies? Also I somewhat recently added the internal skimmer which has the pump inside the housing in the tank so I will definitely check that ASAP as well as supplementing vitamin C in some form. On a scale of 1-10 I'd say a strong 8. I dose reef minerals accordingly and he's feed a variety of frozen foods multiple times a week as well as a automatic dry shrimp feeder twice a day so I couldn't see how it could be poor nutrition unless it was cause by something else.

[Mariaface]

 

About a month and a half ago I installed a new hob filter which had a different carbon filter than the last hob I had. If this is the case what carbon filters should I be using? Are there ones less susceptible to causing those deficiencies? Also I somewhat recently added the internal skimmer which has the pump inside the housing in the tank so I will definitely check that ASAP as well as supplementing vitamin C in some form. On a scale of 1-10 I'd say a strong 8. I dose reef minerals accordingly and he's feed a variety of frozen foods multiple times a week as well as a automatic dry shrimp feeder twice a day so I couldn't see how it could be poor nutrition unless it was cause by something else.

 

 

 

Okay, so. Don't freak out about carbon. If your carbon is removing enough nutrients to cause a nutritional deficiency, you just need to feed better food. Maybe you should look into a better carbon (check out what the rest of us use), if what you're using isn't good quality, but you don't want your fish to rely on the water to get its nutrition.

 

Maybe try vita-chem? It helped me when my clowns had a similar issue. You can use it to soak food/pellets, and my clowns loved chasing after the small particles inside.

 

Is 'reef minerals' the name of a product, or are you referring to alk/calcium/magnesium? Either way, it sounds like it would be more geared towards corals or something like that. Again, you don't want your fish to rely on the water around it for minerals. If anything, you should be counting on it losing nutrients to the clean water.

 

What frozen foods are you feeding? You need high quality meats (whole-looking mysis, krill, scallop, gut loaded baby brine shrimp, etc - look into Larry's Reef Frenzy or Rod's or PE or Hikari), but you also need high quality vegetables. Big time. Are you feeding things that were gut-loaded with spirulina? Foods with kelp as a main ingredient? Maybe clipping seaweed to the side of the tank and letting it graze?

 

I wouldn't feed freeze-dried food if you can't be there to soak it beforehand. You don't want your fish to eat air. Put some high-quality, fast-soaking pellets in the feeder (Omega One, NLS, etc), and try to get them to fall into a feeding station so that they have a change to sink into the water column. Make sure the first two or three ingredients in the food are a whole, high-quality meat (not 'meal'). I like Omega One for this.

[VCK]

 

 

Okay, so. Don't freak out about carbon. If your carbon is removing enough nutrients to cause a nutritional deficiency, you just need to feed better food. Maybe you should look into a better carbon (check out what the rest of us use), if what you're using isn't good quality, but you don't want your fish to rely on the water to get its nutrition.

 

• My new HOB is rated for 50g which replaced the previous 20g rated HOB. Both used activated carbon which I have been using since tank start up.

 

Is 'reef minerals' the name of a product, or are you referring to alk/calcium/magnesium?

• I have been dosing Seachem Reef complete in an attempt to grow coralline algae, to have the ability to add some poylp's or zoa's in the future and, to make the tank more reef like than a FOWLR

 

What frozen foods are you feeding? You need high quality meats (whole-looking mysis, krill, scallop, gut loaded baby brine shrimp, etc. I wouldn't feed freeze-dried food if you can't be there to soak it beforehand. You don't want your fish to eat air.

• I'm feeding Omega One brine shrimp via automatic feeder twice a day. as we'll as multiple times a week between automatic feedings I'll manually feed a variety of high quality frozen foods. I'm Still confused on what you mean by a feeding station. There is a small opening in the condensation trap on my tank which the food falls into. That corner of my tank is essentially a "feeding station."

 

To anyone who still cares here's an update. Soon after posting this my fish became stressed. He wasn't swimming as much, eating as much and, was breathing erratically. (I.E. he was not swimming fast and curiously like he normally is and like the vid in my original posting.) In only about one day the Flame Angel developed ich all over. Immediately I decided to dose Paraguard - Another Seachem product as I've had good success with their other products - Since I'm running a fish only tank I was just going to dose it into my display tank. I placed the order online along with Stressguard (Antiseptic for fast healing after using Paraguard) and Stability (For use after water changes in a small SW tank like mine. The order took a few days to get here and in that time I did a blackout period to get rid of a small patch of Dino whilst dosing Dino X. I was also researching the causes of HITH and decided to take my carbon filter out since one of the possible causes was long term activated carbon use or stress caused by activated carbon. Before my order of Paraguard and other Seachem products arrived at my door step my Flame Angel did a complete 180. He no longer appeared distressed and the ich had gone away completely. I'm currently in shock the ich appeared and dissipated in such a short amount of time and I'm still monitoring the black spots on my Flame Angel's head but they appear to be diminishing (will update).

 

Anyways the order came in today and I will update after dosing and report the results. I also plan on replacing the activated carbon pad with some form of biological filtration in the filter such as small pieces of live rock, bio-balls or lavarock contained in some sort of net or panty hose. The filter I'm using is a Quietflow 50 - which is rated for a 50g tank - on my 20g. The activated carbon pad was HUGE and I've convinced myself it was removing way to many essentials in combination with my skimmer or was in some way harming my Flame Angel.

 

http://i.imgur.com/ZYfuN35.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/a9kk8U4.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/HsI6NEl.jpg

[xAyanex]

 

To anyone who still cares here's an update. Soon after posting this my fish became stressed. He wasn't swimming as much, eating as much and, was breathing erratically. In only about one day the Flame Angel developed ich. Immediately I decided to dose Paraguard - Another Seachem product as I've had good success with their other products - Since I'm running a fish only tank I was just going to dose it into my display tank. I placed the order online along with Stressguard (Antiseptic for fast healing after using Paraguard) and Stability (For use after water changes in a small SW tank like mine. The order took a few days to get here and in that time I did a blackout period to get rid of a small patch of Dino whilst dosing Dino X. I was also researching the causes of HITH and decided to take my carbon filter out since one of the possible causes was long term activated carbon use or stress caused by activated carbon. Before my order of Paraguard and other Seachem products arrived at my door step my Flame Angel did a complete 180. He no longer appeared distressed and the ich had gone away completely. I'm currently in shock the ich appeared and dissipated in such a short amount of time and I'm still monitoring the black spots on my Flame Angel's head but they appear to be diminishing (will update).

 

Anyways the order came in today and I will update after dosing and report the results. I also plan on replacing the activated carbon pad with some form of biological filtration in the filter such as small pieces of live rock, bio-balls or lavarock contained in some sort of net or panty hose. The filter I'm using is a Quietflow 50 - which is rated for a 50g tank - on my 20g. The activated carbon pad was HUGE and I've convinced myself it was removing way to many essentials in combination with my skimmer or was in some way harming my Flame Angel.

VCK: I'm still very new to this hobby, but I think you should researching the cycles of ich or however you would say it.

[Mariaface]

Please do research on the life stages of ich - those cysts on your fish will release so many spores it's not even funny, 'disappear' when they die off, and then the spores comes back with a vengeance from hell. So many more. So much bad.

 

I think if you use Paraguard, you'll need to treat the tank for a full 90 days, since the medicine will only be effective against the 'ectoparasite'? There are other medicines much more suited to ich (copper, chloroquine phosphate, etc), but you'll need a hospital tank set up for this and the display tank will need to be completely fishless for 90 days.

 

Bigger filter = better, I agree! Make sure you're using it efficiently - sometimes the included filtration media is better suited for freshwater. For example, don't use sponges. Buy filter floss (bonded blue sheets if you want structure), cut it to size/shape, and make sure all of the water is flowing through that first before hitting chemical filtration. Throw it out once it clogs. Then in my experience, the carbon included with filters tends to be dusty. And the large pieces have a tendency to get clogged before the carbon can do its actual job. I use Seachem MatrixCarbon since it fits inside most drawstring media bags and is low-dust. A quick rinse does the job.

 

If you're going to start with softies, I don't think you need to worry about adding Reef Complete - your salt should have plenty of alk/cal/mag. If you're going to put in something with a skeleton, pick up test kits for those water parameters so you know you're not overdosing.

 

I think the brine shrimp should definitely be replaced with a high-quality staple food for omnivores. Omega One super color, NLS, etc. Brine shrimp are a cheap-energy snack, so to speak. Can you list the frozen foods you're using?

 

Feeding station. The food soaks and falls into the water column instead of floating at the top. Especially useful if your fish is overzealous and swallows air when it feeds from the surface.

[VCK]

I think if you use Paraguard, you'll need to treat the tank for a full 90 days, since the medicine will only be effective against the 'ectoparasite'? There are other medicines much more suited to ich (copper, chloroquine phosphate, etc), but you'll need a hospital tank set up for this and the display tank will need to be completely fishless for 90 days.

 

 

I was going to use one of the more effective copper treatments but, I read somewhere Flame Angels are susceptible to changes in copper?

[Mariaface]

Try to look up specific cases of people treating them for ich - go with their successes

[phillyclownfish]

Why not use CP for this?

[VCK]

Update: 5/20/2016

 

Managed to cure the ich via Paraguard in a little over three days. Unfortunately the fins on my Angel began to deteriorate. Thinking it was a water quality issue I took a sample of water to a LFS who diagnosed it as a secondary bacterial infection since nothing was wrong with my water. While I was there I bought S.E.L.C.O. Boost to soak my food in to try and boost my angel's immune. When I got home I also invested in Primafix + Melafix and New Life Spectrum high quality food pellets via Amazon. All of which are to be delivered in less than a day via overnight shipping since the LFS did not have anything readily available to treat with. Unfortunately I came home last night to a very distressed fish whom I could not get to eat frozen food soaked in the S.E.L.C.O. I scooped my Angel off the substrate this morning being unable to treat him/her in time.

 

Being my first fish whom I had over a year it is a sad day A combination of newbie mistakes such as poor monitoring of nutrition, introducing infected water from a fish store - which is how I believe this whole thing started -, possible stresses - caused by too much flow or long term use of activated carbon - as well a delay of action taken on my part resulting from not knowing what hit my fish right away and the symptoms of fish infections/diseases killed my Flame. Anyways thanks to all the experienced fish keepers who attempted to help me whilst experiencing these problems. I do think this has made me a more experienced and proactive care taker and I can only hope to redeem myself in the future after I sort everything out.

[Mariaface]

Or maybe the size of the tank that you don't seem to think is an issue, causing stress and letting it become susceptible? Sitting in a 20g with fifteen fish for half a week isn't indicative of longer term health..

[VCK]

Or maybe the size of the tank that you don't seem to think is an issue, causing stress and letting it become susceptible? Sitting in a 20g with fifteen fish for half a week isn't indicative of longer term health..

Maybe it is and maybe it isn't I just have a hard time believing the tank size is the problem after a year and a half of health, growth and, being perfectly fine. But maybe it isn't indicative thanks again Mariaface