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Herbie Overflow Problems - FIXED!


pewpewkittah

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I've done a herbie overflow design on my 40B, but it's drilled through the back.

My main drain is a 1" 90 degree elbow pointing down. The emergency drain is a 1" 90 degree elbow pointing up with an additional piece of pvc added. This was to have the emergency drain trickle just a tiny bit of water when the tank is at operating levels.

After getting my tank wet tonight I ran into some problems...

First, we had too much water in the sump when we started it and the emergency drain was making so much noise and blowing bubbles. So we drained some water out to maintain the trickle of the emergency drain.

Now, we are having problems with maintaining enough water in the return pump. I tried using my Jebao DCT6000 on the lowest setting.. Figured it might still be too powerful so I grabbed a spare Rio 1700 (642gph) and it made no difference. Its like the water isn't draining fast enough to even keep up with the return.

I've tried tuning the main drain valve, but when it's fully opened the emergency drain is at the perfect level. If I try closing it too much water runs into the emergency drain and we encounter the first problem again...

I need some help with this. First time doing actual plumbing and sump work with a reef tank.

Thanks so much in advance.

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Pictures would help, from what your describing it sounds like your tank is drilled at the top near the water line.

I think this is causing your problems, herbies work best when it's the bottom of the tank drilled.

What I think is happening is your 90 elbow pointing down is trapping air and not forming a full syphon. Try removing the elbow or turning it sideways so it's pointing across the tank. You may find this causes a vortex to form and pull air because the drain isn't deep enough to stop this, but it should speed up the rate of drain assuming it's not pulling masses of air with a vortex.

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I'm sorry, here's a picture. The emergency drain on the right has an additional piece to give height to it that's not shown.

 

0115162313c_zps2sk2uh1e.jpg

 

Thanks so much for the quick reply, its kind of late now but I'll try turning the elbow to the side or maybe completely up. I can't really remove it because I have such a narrow overflow, if it comes down to it I can saw it off.

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Early for me, I'm in the UK and just about to come off a night shift lol.

 

Herbie%20issues_zpsnlb9xgtg.png

 

This is what I think is happening. On the left is a standard herbie like I have in my system, the water fills the primary drain fully and the valve regulates how much goes through allowing you to adjust the height in the weir overflow.

Your setup is on the right. Because of the downwards facing elbow air is trapped in the top of the U bend effectively reducing the size of the pipe your using. Unless you can get that air out of there it will never work properly.

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I've done a herbie overflow design on my 40B, but it's drilled through the back.

 

My main drain is a 1" 90 degree elbow pointing down. The emergency drain is a 1" 90 degree elbow pointing up with an additional piece of pvc added. This was to have the emergency drain trickle just a tiny bit of water when the tank is at operating levels.

 

After getting my tank wet tonight I ran into some problems...

 

First, we had too much water in the sump when we started it and the emergency drain was making so much noise and blowing bubbles. So we drained some water out to maintain the trickle of the emergency drain.

How does draining the sump keep the emergency drain at a trickle? This should depend on the adjustment of the main tank display which is controlled by the main drain valve..

Now, we are having problems with maintaining enough water in the return pump. I tried using my Jebao DCT6000 on the lowest setting.. Figured it might still be too powerful so I grabbed a spare Rio 1700 (642gph) and it made no difference. Its like the water isn't draining fast enough to even keep up with the return.

 

I've tried tuning the main drain valve, but when it's fully opened the emergency drain is at the perfect level. If I try closing it too much water runs into the emergency drain and we encounter the first problem again...

 

I need some help with this. First time doing actual plumbing and sump work with a reef tank.

 

Thanks so much in advance.

 

So I actually have the same setup! Here are some ideas:

1) How big is your return chamber? If it's really small I could see issues with a fast return pump. I have a 40br with a 1" herbie (1" emergency also) and run a Jebao DCT4000 at 50% power. Before that I used a quietone 1200 which was probably well under 200gph with head that was really easy to tune. To fix this you could either raise the water level in the return, put an elbow on the return pump so it grabs water from the lowest possible point, or possibly include a small sump bypass, a piece of regulated pipe/tubing that drains directly into the return pump area.

 

2) Adjusting the herbie can be a little tricky. Start with an initial adjustment and try to only make small adjustments every 15 minutes or so. If you make adjustments too frequently it won't establish a flow and you'll run into noise and inconsistencies.

 

3) My overflow has been operating for years with no elbow on the main drain with no issues. I did intend to put an elbow in facing down, but this makes me wonder if I should. If after using the method in #2 for adjusting you still have issues try taking out the elbow - should be an easy test.

 

4) A full siphon 1" drain fully open should handle a ton of flow... So it seems to me you're not establishing a siphon. This could be because of the elbow issue or it could be because your drain is open too much. I realize it sounds counter-intuitive but actually closing the main drain more may be necessary to force the siphon. The symptoms of the drain being too open is a frequent "flushing" noise, where the water is flowing and might be a little noisy but then suddenly there's a loud "whooshing" of water. So you could try that.

 

5) Fill your sump while the return pump is off and the display tank is full - you may need to over fill it a little compared to what you normally want the water level to be at (within reason, you shouldn't make it too full - always have just enough room for the display to empty back into the sump in the event of a power outage). The sump basically needs to raise the display water level by about 1/2" before much water makes it back down the drain. If the sump is smaller it could suck up a few gallons before water starts flowing down the drain.

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Early for me, I'm in the UK and just about to come off a night shift lol.

 

Herbie%20issues_zpsnlb9xgtg.png

 

This is what I think is happening. On the left is a standard herbie like I have in my system, the water fills the primary drain fully and the valve regulates how much goes through allowing you to adjust the height in the weir overflow.

Your setup is on the right. Because of the downwards facing elbow air is trapped in the top of the U bend effectively reducing the size of the pipe your using. Unless you can get that air out of there it will never work properly.

 

Wonderful illustration. Thank you!

 

It makes a lot of sense. I think I just need to mess around with that pesky elbow and get it to full siphon. I've seen lots of people with the Herbie Overflow drilled through the back, nearly the same design as myself and they get it working perfectly. Ajmckay is a good example of this. It just may take some more to get running perfectly.

 

 

So I actually have the same setup! Here are some ideas:

1) How big is your return chamber? If it's really small I could see issues with a fast return pump. I have a 40br with a 1" herbie (1" emergency also) and run a Jebao DCT4000 at 50% power. Before that I used a quietone 1200 which was probably well under 200gph with head that was really easy to tune. To fix this you could either raise the water level in the return, put an elbow on the return pump so it grabs water from the lowest possible point, or possibly include a small sump bypass, a piece of regulated pipe/tubing that drains directly into the return pump area.

 

2) Adjusting the herbie can be a little tricky. Start with an initial adjustment and try to only make small adjustments every 15 minutes or so. If you make adjustments too frequently it won't establish a flow and you'll run into noise and inconsistencies.

 

3) My overflow has been operating for years with no elbow on the main drain with no issues. I did intend to put an elbow in facing down, but this makes me wonder if I should. If after using the method in #2 for adjusting you still have issues try taking out the elbow - should be an easy test.

 

4) A full siphon 1" drain fully open should handle a ton of flow... So it seems to me you're not establishing a siphon. This could be because of the elbow issue or it could be because your drain is open too much. I realize it sounds counter-intuitive but actually closing the main drain more may be necessary to force the siphon. The symptoms of the drain being too open is a frequent "flushing" noise, where the water is flowing and might be a little noisy but then suddenly there's a loud "whooshing" of water. So you could try that.

 

5) Fill your sump while the return pump is off and the display tank is full - you may need to over fill it a little compared to what you normally want the water level to be at (within reason, you shouldn't make it too full - always have just enough room for the display to empty back into the sump in the event of a power outage). The sump basically needs to raise the display water level by about 1/2" before much water makes it back down the drain. If the sump is smaller it could suck up a few gallons before water starts flowing down the drain.

 

The sump needed to be drained to maintain the level in the DT because the return is pumping too quickly into the display and practically flooding it. I'll try adjusting the main valve instead though.

 

1. My return chamber isn't small, but it isn't large. I plan on using an ATO. I can get an exact amount, but I'd guess the total volume is 3g. I think the main drains should be able to keep up with my return pump, considering its at the lowest setting.

 

2. Yeah... I might have been adjusting it too frequently. I followed the guide on the main Herbie website and he suggests adjusting and waiting a few minutes. While I am adjusting should I just keep my return running constantly or just when the sump starts filling up? As I said before the return is basically sucking a lot of air and bubbles while I am trying to tune the main drain.

 

3. I'll try #2 method first, then try doing the same with the elbow pointed up, and then to the side. This sounds like a lot of trial and error <_<. I'm not sure if I mentioned this, but I wanted a shallower overflow box to make it inconspicuous in the tank. I am seriously regretting this decision now, because I can't remove the elbow without just sawing it off or completely removing the overflow box.

 

4. To increase the amount of flow through by closing the valve doesn't make a lot of sense to me... but every Herbie overflow guide says its required, so I suppose I wasn't adjusting it with enough patience.

 

5. I have to really be careful with overfilling the sump... I might have to try this last, because last time it was just pumping too much water into the DT, even with the toned down return pump. Overflowing the emergency drain and causing the extreme bubbling and noise.

 

Thank you so much for all the help. I don't know where I would be without you guys.

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I got it working!!! :haha::haha::haha:

 

All I had to do was twist the main drain elbow pointed *almost* upwards, and then adjust the main drain valve. After that I added some water to the sump and adjust the main valve a couple more times and its been working perfectly!

 

Again, thanks to everyone who helped :bowdown:

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Great. Looks like the problem was that air lock causing a restriction. Basically with the air trapped in there it will have been like trying to use some 4mm air line to drain the tank faster than the return pump was moving water (never going to happen).

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