Dino or cyano?

[Fishgirl2393]

Hi all. I have a 20-gallon tank (look in signature for link to thread). I've been battling something for a few weeks now and I want to know if it is dino or cyano. It has bubbles in it (if that is not clear from the pics below). The tank parameters are normal (alk 8, pH 8.1, calcium 425ppm, nitrate less than 5ppm, phosphate near 0 according to Salifert).

[jedimasterben]

neither.

[brandon429]

agreed neither so far, no guess as to what it is so sorry! but we headed off chemi clean and a bunch of crazy dino tank actions, at least.

I can tell though from your second pic how to fix up the tank, you take the entire tank apart down to the sandbed and either blast clean or replace it to be 100% free of detritus, you blast clean off all the live rocks, razor clean the tank 100% and put it all back together. you'll have clean sand, live animals, clean rocks, and no systemic algae+their fuel, which is currently there notably. this action can be done without any cycle, its totally easy to pull off.

 

Only action this thorough is warranted, all else is a waste of time.

B

[Fishgirl2393]

The thing is, it covers the front of the tank and all equipment really fast. It is snotty/slimy texture (I know that could be a lot of things) and does hold air bubbles (hard to tell if they are trapped or actually produced by whatever it is because there seem to be both at times). It is also on the sandbed. Nothing wants to eat it. I looked at it under a cheap microscope but unfortunately, the 1200x lens was not working so I couldn't get any better than 400x. When disturbed, it doesn't come off like cyano (instead it disintigrates into many tiny "clumps").

[Fishgirl2393]

Could it possibly be calothrix? I agree that drastic measures are likely needed. I am not a huge fan of a sand/substrate free tank but I am very tempted to try it. I know it makes keeping detritus out much easier. Any other tips? It will have to wait until after my finals are done (Thursday) but I am very likely to do some drastic cleaning at that point.

[brandon429]

I too wont keep bare bottom, I like the sand! I just blast clean it as mentioned, commonly, its not a rare event for my tank its a bi monthly event. ultra clean sand ten inches deep is no more harmful than a bare bottom tank, just different chores to keep it clean and I like how the sand raises my rock stack up, looks more natural. I prob w always have sand, but ill have params that look like the tank is BB. not sure on the id cuz some of the algae looks to be mid cycle dying off, it can come in waves etc.

[Fishgirl2393]

So, I actually did have some time to do a cleaning of the substrate. I gravel vacuumed it. I also scrubbed the rocks off and fished that stuff out. I plan to do this frequently. I also added fresh phosphate remover (I prefer the pad type because of the ease of use) and activated carbon (again, in pad form). I will be able to do more after finals though.

[gulfsurfer101]

I have done what brandon429 had suggested a few times. During every move I will scrub my rock of unwanted algae and pest like vermited snails and use all new freshly mixed water. I'll take small portions of sand in a bucket and wash it with a hose till out runs clear then dump it right into the tank. By the time I an done rinsing my next bucket the water will have cleared up of you have rinsed out correctly. The only thing I may have noticed that may be considered unpleasant afterwards is a few diatomes on the sand a few days later but they cost up rather fast.

[Fishgirl2393]

It came back... it is very slimy and nasty. It is also think (not a thin layer). Here is a pic...

[Hammerstone]

It looks like detritus to me. When I moved I kept the sand and tons of shit settled on my rocks and such. I'm still trying to clean that stuff out. I'm scared of it landing on my corals or bothering my fish or making a cycle or something bad happening if I do too much at once.

[Fishgirl2393]

It is for sure not detritus. It really looks like Dino's but I don't know for sure.

[Tamberav]

Doesn't look like dino to me.

 

I do see some cyano in the tank too though.

 

I would reset the tank as others said.

[B.C.]

Could be a type of dino?

What i would do being its a 20 gal. tank, take equipment out clean it and spray with peroxide.. Drain the tank and save the water. You can use 5 gal. buckets or sterilite bins, place your live rock and livestock in the containers with your tank water, wipe the inside of the tank down with paper towels,get it as clean as you can,spray peroxide on the paper towel as well before wiping it down. Spray the inside of the tank with peroxide.

Spray each piece of live rock with peroxide as well and place them in your tank,be careful not to directly spray any corals that may be attached.

Fill the tank up with the water you saved and the rest of your livestock. Run the tank.

 

Someone else dosed the tank with h2o2 for what seemed to be dinos as well and was working for him. He also kept the tank dark for a few days,i forget how long it needs to be in the dark and how much to dose if need be afterwards. Im sure someone else will chime in.

 

Ive done this to treat a bad gha problem i had in my 40b with no ill effects except for when i treated a birdsnest directly for a few treatments.

BTW thanks to brandon for the peroxide treatment. His thread is where i came to learn about it.

 

I keep a 40 gallon brute trash can that i use to drain the tank and then spray or scrub with a tooth brush any area that needs it. I let it sit for a couple of minutes and then pump the water back into the tank and im done. Takes me about 15 min. from start to finish.

Peroxide is like Franks hot suace but for a reef tank. I use that shizel on everything. Lol

[Jsp]

I recently had a Dino problem. I dosed peroxide for a couple weeks and did 8 days lights out with tank covered and that solved my problem.

[Rural]

i feel this is one of those over complicating things that was mentioned in another thread...

 

a+b=c

 

if you remove c, by theory, you deplete a+b from your system.

 

eventually without additional a+b added to the system c cannot be made.

 

am i the only one who thinks this way? just keep removing what you don not want and it will take care of itself with water changes?

[B.C.]

Not as complicated as it seems.

You are right as to keep levels in check. The treatment is a jumpstart to a clean tank. =)

[jedimasterben]

I recently had a Dino problem. I dosed peroxide for a couple weeks and did 8 days lights out with tank covered and that solved my problem.

no it didn't. you just can't see the problem with your naked eye.

[Jsp]

no it didn't. you just can't see the problem with your naked eye.

Correct it's not gone it's in every system

[Fishgirl2393]

So what should I do? My water appears to be quite good ( nitrates always low at around 1ppm and phos undetectable with a Salifert kit).

[Jsp]

i would do a lights out for three days. Cover the tank you will need a air stone or protein skimmer works to keep ph up. Try that first. Then there is always peroxide dosing to. After lights out do a water change

[B.C.]

So what should I do? My water appears to be quite good ( nitrates always low at around 1ppm and phos undetectable with a Salifert kit).

Clean it with peroxide and lights out!

[ps2cho]

Scrub it off and siphon it out with a 80 to 100% water change.

[Fishgirl2393]

I scrubbed and removed the stuff. I also cleaned off all equipment (skimmer, pumps, filters, heater). I am going to do a 3 day blackout probably (likely starting tomorrow but not sure of that yet). I dosed some Dr Tims EcoBalance (don't know if it will work but probiotics sometimes work from what I read). I am 99% sure this is dinoflagellates at this point (based on the way they look/feel and a not great microscopic look at them). I wish I had a better microscope to look at them with, but oh well (the one I have is not bad in terms of magnification, but not great image).

[brandon429]

When you scrubbed it all out, did you do a total water change? If partial, I'm thinking some was left in the system

Using a filter/aggregation test to discern between dinos and similar invaders

http://www.reef2reef.com/threads/helpful-method-for-identifying-dinoflagellates.216508/

 

 

Also, don't evaluate the cleaning as a one off event. This invader was allowed access to every niche in the tank before catch up, it will be tricky to remove and take work to finish it up. Combined attacks will work

 

All the cleaning and export I do is preventative and not as an invader address, it simply means imported biomass has less to capitalize on

 

 

If your tank was mine to fix, any additive, doser, lights out or action X would be after a full manual cleaning hard work. By doing action X to this tank once a full water change and cleaning has the offender seemingly gone, action X has far less biomass to act on and is amplified. Almost every tank fix desired in reefing is dosing something to the water only, continuing a hands off mode that began the original biomass

 

 

You should post pics of the cleaned tank, then we can see how fast it rebounds to the total state above, rare for that to occur within a week. Can we see a pic of the cleaned up state? Haven't been able to see the sandbed so far, that is the place the invader awaited to come back from I'm guessing. Cleaning needs to be thorough, take apart type cleaning with rocks out and fish and corals in holding containers

 

Any invader that can get back on the glass and pumps after a thorough cleaning, with full water change export as well (so that it's not just circulating) is clearly transitioning back to surfaces though the water, from some substrate location in the the tank. This is a handy time to consider gross oversized UV filtration, highly indicated here. Amazon I hear has 30 day return policies for items that didn't cut it, and uv has a potential to reveal itself here within one week

 

Don't buy a correctly sized uv and risk wasting time

 

Buy one that's too big, grossly, and make use of time. It's a temp device not needed 24x7, you have an atypical invader once gone (and quarantine is used for new additions) can't come back

 

Since most of us won't qr, it can be kept in a drawer for reuse later.

 

I'd blast clean the entire tank including sandbed and water, post the clean pic so we can see in following pics where it chooses to regrow, install a giant UV and then watch for regrowth. Other actions like peroxide and lights out, all following thorough tank and detritus cleaning, can be combined if simple uv doesn't fix it

 

I've used uv myself when the factors are at play and it doesn't have to be long term. You have a hitchhike required invader, it can just show up from nowhere like cyano can. Once eradicated it can't come back.

 

 

Nobody could input raw phosphate plant fertilizer into my reef and generate any invader except cyano and green hair algae and micro algae, the universal invaders. The fact a fertilizer nutrient can't generate invasive dinos or valonia or brush algae says that for most invaders, being thorough and killing all the DNA out of the tank can work, doesn't have to be a nutrients thing each time.

[Fishgirl2393]

Well, the tank is somewhat better but I still am getting some growth of this stuff. Not nearly as bad though. Did a 2 gallon water change last night (with a full gravel vacuum). When I moved the tank in June/July, I replaced the sand (per recommendations from many sources). I wasn't able to get "sand" at that time (stores sold out) but I got a bag of crushed coral substrate. I am now wondering if this stuff is more of a problem. My rocks are not too bad (a couple of them are worse than the others) but another weird thing is that I have very little coralline algae growth on them. My corals are doing good but not growing much. Any advice? I have been doing water changes every week (usually only 2 gallons or so). I only have the 1 fish (royal gramma) and some hermits/snails (about 6 total) and the corals (kenya trees, mushrooms, clove polyps, zoas, a gorg, and a duncan).