tetraodon Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 so im sad to say ive lost my last 2 clams. not really sure what took these last 2, other than it was sudden, both clams were healthy as far as i can tell and took a steep dive. total lost clams this year is 5. the other 3 seamed to have caught PM when my tank started having issues. how long do you all think i should wait before introducing a new clam? i know ill be taking more precautions from now on, Link to comment
ajmckay Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 Sucks dude - that's a lot of clams down the drain (pun intended)... Sorry I couldn't help myself... too soon? Anyways - I don't think that there's any evidence that you must wait a certain amount of time (other than the wallet recovery period) before introducing new clams... Like you said though, I would take more precautions going forward. Keep some buffer on hand for FW dips. Practice making them so you can do it quick in the event of PM. Also keep some metronidazole on hand? Some say that helps as well (though honestly FW dip seems to be the more trusted method). Also consider a QT/dip procedure before introducing new clams. I'm sure there are some good threads out there for people with multiple clams. Link to comment
HarryPotter Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 I had a similar issue- everything running perfect for a while (7 months in my case) and then BOOM two died without any warning. The consensus was that they were slowly starving from lack of light/food- only the higher up ones lived. Could something similar have occurred in yours? Link to comment
Felicia Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 If you've lost 5 clams, that tells me there is an issue with your system. Odds are that you wouldn't have 5 clams get pinched mantle without there being some issue with your tank. Are you having parameter swings? Do you have any carnivorous snails in your system? Could they be starving? How is your lighting? Are you over skimming and your water is too clean? Link to comment
tetraodon Posted November 18, 2015 Author Share Posted November 18, 2015 Sucks dude - that's a lot of clams down the drain (pun intended)... Sorry I couldn't help myself... too soon? Anyways - I don't think that there's any evidence that you must wait a certain amount of time (other than the wallet recovery period) before introducing new clams... Like you said though, I would take more precautions going forward. Keep some buffer on hand for FW dips. Practice making them so you can do it quick in the event of PM. Also keep some metronidazole on hand? Some say that helps as well (though honestly FW dip seems to be the more trusted method). Also consider a QT/dip procedure before introducing new clams. I'm sure there are some good threads out there for people with multiple clams. ive done them a few times, my oldest clam held on the longest, about 3 weeks and 4 dips from the onset of noticeable symptoms. i will do a QT now, all i usually did was a freshwater dip prior to introducing them. I had a similar issue- everything running perfect for a while (7 months in my case) and then BOOM two died without any warning. The consensus was that they were slowly starving from lack of light/food- only the higher up ones lived. Could something similar have occurred in yours? possibly, but i have two reefbreeders value fixtures about 4 inches off the surface with everything at 50% so id say there is plenty of light, its in fact the same light and level i used before i upgraded. considering i have algae issues i know there is nutrients in the water, If you've lost 5 clams, that tells me there is an issue with your system. Odds are that you wouldn't have 5 clams get pinched mantle without there being some issue with your tank. Are you having parameter swings? Do you have any carnivorous snails in your system? Could they be starving? How is your lighting? Are you over skimming and your water is too clean? ive had a few param swings but nothing overly dangerous, my biggest swing was my temp, ive been trying a non-glass heater and it seams under powered and cant keep my tank consistant, i was having calc and alk swings but i caught them early and was able to get them locked down. i have a couple nassarus snails who only showed up after the clam was too far gone. i dont think they could be starving because i have algae issues so i know i have nutrients in the water plus i dose some liquid food to keep it from being stripped by my biopellet reactor. my lighting is 2 reebreeder value fixtures at 50%, it was the same light i grew my oldest clam under for almost 2 years. i have a large skimmer, biopellet reactor and a fuge but only due to my dwarf lionfish. Link to comment
tetraodon Posted November 18, 2015 Author Share Posted November 18, 2015 i also want to be clear they all didnt die at once, i had two clams in my system for a year or more, and i bought 3 in january. the first clam died after a month or so. then everything was fine until 2 months ago when i lost one i bought and had a lengthy battle to save my oldest. then one i bought in january died last week and finally my 2nd oldest yesterday. Link to comment
metrokat Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 Without measuring nitrates and phosphates, and have these be low but present, It's not possible to conclude that you have nutrients sufficient to support clams. The algae that you see is utilizing it, so effectively there is less or little for the clams. With 5 clams, that are filtering your water 24/7, it is possible to run low on nutrients. a high fish load which in turn produces ammonia is one example of having nutrients in the water. Also, pinched mantle can appear on clams that are stressed, starved, or irritated. It does not necessarily mean it has pinched mantle disease, it is hard to distinguish one from the other but as good indicator could be that if a first FW dip did not help it look better, subsequent dips will likely not help either. Some say true PM disease can exist in the aquarium without a clam host. I wish we knew more. It is possible that your new clams introduced a pathogen or PM disease. Link to comment
tetraodon Posted November 18, 2015 Author Share Posted November 18, 2015 this whole upgrade has been just complete trouble to be honest. the clams might have also been irritated as well, i do have a large population of bristle worms. so if FW dips did nothing then it was a whole different cause i guess is safe to assume. ive had a noticed reduction on algae on my glass and a sudden bloom of cyano wonder if that could be any real sign. im wondering if i should just take my reactor offline and see what happens. Link to comment
ajmckay Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 Wow, a skimmer, biopellet reactor and 5 clams in a 20L? And only 1 fish? I think I agree with some of the others that there very well could have been issues with it not getting enough nutrition. On top of that the algae is competing with the clams for available nutrients. If I were in the same situation when I try the clams again I would start without the reactor, and maybe without the skimmer too. Up my water changes temporarily to keep the algae issue under control. Add new clam and see how it does for several weeks. If it's doing great then maybe bring the skimmer online. If it's still doing great then continue, otherwise take the skimmer offline again and see if it gets better? Link to comment
tetraodon Posted November 18, 2015 Author Share Posted November 18, 2015 Wow, a skimmer, biopellet reactor and 5 clams in a 20L? And only 1 fish? I think I agree with some of the others that there very well could have been issues with it not getting enough nutrition. On top of that the algae is competing with the clams for available nutrients. If I were in the same situation when I try the clams again I would start without the reactor, and maybe without the skimmer too. Up my water changes temporarily to keep the algae issue under control. Add new clam and see how it does for several weeks. If it's doing great then maybe bring the skimmer online. If it's still doing great then continue, otherwise take the skimmer offline again and see if it gets better? it was upgraded to a 30breeder with a 20long sump, and the fish is a dwarf lion, i did have a long nose who decided to surf, and a leaf fish that wouldnt eat. i would just hate to have spent money on equipment that was supposed to help and end up just stuffing in my closet Link to comment
metrokat Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 Wow, a skimmer, biopellet reactor and 5 clams in a 20L? And only 1 fish Oh wow, I totally missed this. And a tank upgrade to boot? Yeah, I'm leaning towards starvation MB7 mixed with coral snow and dosed daily will help with the cyano. It is a common occurrence with new tanks while the bacteria tries to establish dominance between species. Link to comment
tetraodon Posted November 18, 2015 Author Share Posted November 18, 2015 Oh wow, I totally missed this. And a tank upgrade to boot? Yeah, I'm leaning towards starvation the upgrade happened before i bought any of the new clams, you think they could still starve over a year? Oh wow, I totally missed this. And a tank upgrade to boot? Yeah, I'm leaning towards starvation MB7 mixed with coral snow and dosed daily will help with the cyano. It is a common occurrence with new tanks while the bacteria tries to establish dominance between species. the tank is a year old, plus the rock and sand has been in a system for a year and a half, is this still considered new? cause if so i really dont know anything Link to comment
metrokat Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 the upgrade happened before i bought any of the new clams, you think they could still starve over a year? a bigger clam, yes. They get most of their nutrition from photosynthesis but also need nutrient waters which they filter. If you have cyano after a year of upgrading, the bacterial imbalance (that causes it) also suggests that the tank hasn't found a balance. This is not your fault to be honest, when you have a reactor, skimmer, and other control mechanisms on the tank, it really requires extreme testing to make sure the parameters don't swing too much in any direction. As hobbyists this is arduous unless you have the time or are obsessive enough to about it (not meant as a criticism of anybody that tests frequently), it just takes methodical discipline which is hard given that this is a hobby and meant to be relaxing. If you look at Markalots testing, you can see that even in large reefs which people say is easier to maintain than nanos, you can see that parameters change rapidly. This may be an individual issue related only to his reef, no way to tell but the fact is that he also runs a reactor, skimmer, etc and tweaking the tank to get the idea parameters is a lot of work. Link to comment
metrokat Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 For your algae id get back to basics. 0 TDS water, and testing nitrates and phosphates. Dipping rocks in peroxide, reducing the photo period, getting a herbivore, feeding less, these are things to try to control any blooms. Cyano is MB7 and coral snow. Nitrate and Phosphate testing will tell you if you need to take your reactor or skimmer offline. In some cases tanks are nitrate limited, which means you might have high phosphates but in order to reduce that you need to dose nitrates. I know I know, I'm talking a lot of things out of left field maybe and your thread was about the clams, but hopefully getting back to basics and keeping it simple will help in the long run. Link to comment
tetraodon Posted November 18, 2015 Author Share Posted November 18, 2015 a bigger clam, yes. They get most of their nutrition from photosynthesis but also need nutrient waters which they filter. If you have cyano after a year of upgrading, the bacterial imbalance (that causes it) also suggests that the tank hasn't found a balance. This is not your fault to be honest, when you have a reactor, skimmer, and other control mechanisms on the tank, it really requires extreme testing to make sure the parameters don't swing too much in any direction. As hobbyists this is arduous unless you have the time or are obsessive enough to about it (not meant as a criticism of anybody that tests frequently), it just takes methodical discipline which is hard given that this is a hobby and meant to be relaxing. If you look at Markalots testing, you can see that even in large reefs which people say is easier to maintain than nanos, you can see that parameters change rapidly. This may be an individual issue related only to his reef, no way to tell but the fact is that he also runs a reactor, skimmer, etc and tweaking the tank to get the idea parameters is a lot of work. so i guess now i have to figure out where and how to go from here. as it stands now, my reactor is a recirculating avast mr5, thats plumbed to a curve 5 skimmer with a small fuge. i try to test weekly, nothings growing in my tank due to my alk having stayed the same for 3 weeks with no dosing and no water changes. my temp is giving me trouble but im going to throw in another heater later to help. i use a standard felt filter sock changed at least twice a week. my lion gets fed twice a week, and i try to dose a mixture of phyto and zoo plankton from seachem. For your algae id get back to basics. 0 TDS water, and testing nitrates and phosphates. Dipping rocks in peroxide, reducing the photo period, getting a herbivore, feeding less, these are things to try to control any blooms. Cyano is MB7 and coral snow. Nitrate and Phosphate testing will tell you if you need to take your reactor or skimmer offline. In some cases tanks are nitrate limited, which means you might have high phosphates but in order to reduce that you need to dose nitrates. I know I know, I'm talking a lot of things out of left field maybe and your thread was about the clams, but hopefully getting back to basics and keeping it simple will help in the long run. i use 0 TDS already, and all i have are API test kits for those, and i cant dip my rocks due to a monti cap being glued on, the photo period im concerned about reducing due to all my other coral. im currently holding a yellow tang for a friend who is redoing their tank. no, i want to solve whats wrong because its all connected. any advice iis welcome, guess i have to break out my manuals again Link to comment
metrokat Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 Step 1 - better test kits. You can dip the rock keeping the monti cap out of the dip - exposure to the air for the 3 minutes of the dip will not cause harm. An alternative is to place the rocks one by one in a tub or on a towel and dribbling peroxide with a pipette everywhere but on the cap. rinse in salt water and put back. Some pictures of your tank would be good to see too. Link to comment
tetraodon Posted November 18, 2015 Author Share Posted November 18, 2015 Step 1 - better test kits. You can dip the rock keeping the monti cap out of the dip - exposure to the air for the 3 minutes of the dip will not cause harm. An alternative is to place the rocks one by one in a tub or on a towel and dribbling peroxide with a pipette everywhere but on the cap. rinse in salt water and put back. Some pictures of your tank would be good to see too. i have some red sea kits for alk, calc, and mag. just nitrate and phos i have in API, but im gonna go for some saliferts next. i dont mean to sounds like a PIA but wont dipping cause more issues due to bacteria loss? plus my rock work is all epoxied together so dipping is a major project for me. i can get some pics when i get home, you friended me on FB the other day i can send the pics to here or on there which ever is easier. Link to comment
metrokat Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 Post pictures here, FB just blocked me, asking for a photo ID for "metrokat" so I'll have to address that when I get home, I'm out of the country right now. Yes, peroxide will kill beneficial critters as well. algaecides, chemiclean (cyano), FWE and other stuff we use to eradicate problems do the same. If the rocks are epoxied together, of course they can't be pulled out. I have in the past siphoned out water to a point, dribbled the peroxide on the exposed rocks and filled the tank back up with the same water after 3 minutes. Just anothe method. Do what you are comfortable with. Cleaner shrimp cannot handle peroxide BTW. Also, some folks dose peroxide or use an oxydator for it. Carbon dosing works the same way for algae, but with a reactor I don;t think carbon dosing should be done. Link to comment
tetraodon Posted November 18, 2015 Author Share Posted November 18, 2015 Post pictures here, FB just blocked me, asking for a photo ID for "metrokat" so I'll have to address that when I get home, I'm out of the country right now. Yes, peroxide will kill beneficial critters as well. algaecides, chemiclean (cyano), FWE and other stuff we use to eradicate problems do the same. If the rocks are epoxied together, of course they can't be pulled out. I have in the past siphoned out water to a point, dribbled the peroxide on the exposed rocks and filled the tank back up with the same water after 3 minutes. Just anothe method. Do what you are comfortable with. Cleaner shrimp cannot handle peroxide BTW. Also, some folks dose peroxide or use an oxydator for it. Carbon dosing works the same way for algae, but with a reactor I don;t think carbon dosing should be done. gotcha, no worries. i probably should have mentioned the cyano isnt on any of my rock work, its a little on my glass and sand. my tux urchin is a bit bigger than a golf ball keeps that pretty clean. im gonna pull as much cyano as i can out. the carbon dosing as i understand is the same as what my reactor is doing, though the reactor can be controlled better because of the actual reactor. ill step feeding a bit more if that will help. how badly do you think low temp affects the situation? its never gone below 72 but i have to constantly mess with the heater settings to keep it stable. Link to comment
metrokat Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 Stability in all things. That's the bottom line. Swings are okay as long as they're not crazy quick swings. Link to comment
tetraodon Posted November 18, 2015 Author Share Posted November 18, 2015 im looking into getting a temp controller to help with the swings in that area. unfortunatly the room swings in temp a lot which i know can affect the temp of my tank, thanks for your help so far, lets just hope i can prevent any further damage. Link to comment
metrokat Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 JBJ has a controller. ReefSolutions on here had a controller that sold out, it did the job - they're making more right now. Link to comment
tetraodon Posted November 18, 2015 Author Share Posted November 18, 2015 the reef solutions is what i was looking at, simple and a good price point, Link to comment
ninjamyst Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 Good luck with everything. Don't have clams but enjoyed the informative posts by Kat. Link to comment
ajmckay Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 Yeah big temps swings are bad - you say your tank hasn't gotten below 72? So normally reefs are kept in the upper 70's, do your swings frequently go like +/- 6-7 degrees? If so that's got to be stressful on the inhabitants... Sounds like something that happened to me a while ago... I put a new fish in QT and stuck in a heater that was already set to the right temp. Well a few days later I'm getting really concerned because the fish was colored very strange like it were stressed - also refusing to leave it's hole or eat. I put my hand in and it was cold! Shit! So the water temp was like 70. I flipped out then realized that I plugged the heater into an extension cord that was controlled by a TIMER!!! So the heater was on for half the time and off for the other half (light timer)... A day or 2 in stable water made all the difference. Color came back, started moving more consistently, and eating. I have the reefsolutions temp controller and it's been working great since June - if they're making more it works well for the price. Oh, and +1 to posts 13 & 14 Link to comment
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