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Cultivated Reef

Euroquatics E5 LED T5 bulbs


gus6464

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These guys were showing off these bulbs at RAP this weekend and if I were them I would go back to the drawing board.

 

For starters the bulbs do not fire in 360 deg so you basically don't use any part of the reflector. I then asked about PAR and guy went on this long rant on how T5 bulbs have a ton of wasted green spectrum so PAR will be higher on those. Then to cap it off he was going on about how T5's look a lot brighter than LED because of the green spectrum but their LED bulbs are a lot better. I have never seen a T5 setup that looks brighter than LED or MH so he must be using some super magical T5HO bulbs I I have never heard of.

 

Ohh and if you are going to do a comparison, don't compare your stuff price wise to ATI bulbs but then use cheap chinese bulbs in the demo.

 

They were going to use an ATI powermodule fixture for the comparo it seems but since their stuff doesn't fire in all directions the ATI setup would have made even cheap bulbs look a lot stronger so instead they swapped out for cheap aquatic life units.

 

 

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Well, he's not wrong.

 

Why bother trying to emulate a technology 100% that has built in inefficiencies? Reflectors are not 100% efficient. Bulb restrike (an artifact of reflector design as well as the fact that bulb gets in the way) also reduces efficiency. If you have the option, why not remove those issues?

 

All fluorescent bulbs use mercury, and as a result, have a pretty healthy spike at 545nm. Not many ways to get around that. I can agree with him that green is pointless on bulbs that are predominantly blue, but is still useful in white bulbs to help increase the brightness. It's one of the primary reasons we use lime LEDs in our setups, so I will agree with you on that point. Actually, them using Chinese bulbs actually helped him to make his point, as they tend to be green heavy. Higher quality bulbs like those from ATI and Giesemann have a better overall blend and will use less mercury in their formulation, reducing the green content and brightness.

 

Now, things that would warrant them going back to the drawing board would be things like:

  • Lack of power
  • Lack of thermal management
  • Poor spectrum

Those would be the things I would have liked to have heard criticism on, not what you seemed to take issue with.

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Well, he's not wrong.

 

Why bother trying to emulate a technology 100% that has built in inefficiencies? Reflectors are not 100% efficient. Bulb restrike (an artifact of reflector design as well as the fact that bulb gets in the way) also reduces efficiency. If you have the option, why not remove those issues?

 

All fluorescent bulbs use mercury, and as a result, have a pretty healthy spike at 545nm. Not many ways to get around that. I can agree with him that green is pointless on bulbs that are predominantly blue, but is still useful in white bulbs to help increase the brightness. It's one of the primary reasons we use lime LEDs in our setups, so I will agree with you on that point. Actually, them using Chinese bulbs actually helped him to make his point, as they tend to be green heavy. Higher quality bulbs like those from ATI and Giesemann have a better overall blend and will use less mercury in their formulation, reducing the green content and brightness.

 

Now, things that would warrant them going back to the drawing board would be things like:

  • Lack of power
  • Lack of thermal management
  • Poor spectrum

Those would be the things I would have liked to have heard criticism on, not what you seemed to take issue with.

 

For starters, the reason one buys a quality T5 unit is for the reflectors. Why on earth would I now buy an bulb that's 3x the price that does not use the one thing I paid a premium for. LED benefits from a reflector just like a T5 bulb. The lack of power issue would be easily remedied by having some emitters that fire toward the reflector.

 

The spectrum of an ATI Blue+ has a teeny tiny bit of green in it. Would that green make PAR 10% higher? Highly doubtful.

 

Show me a reefer who uses cheap Chinese bulbs on their T5 units? Don't try to compare yourself to an ATI bulb in price but then show me how your bulbs perform vs cheap crap.

 

Also find it ironic that T5 has all this wasted green spectrum when they throw in green LEDs on their Angel LED fixtures.

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For starters, the reason one buys a quality T5 unit is for the reflectors. Why on earth would I now buy an bulb that's 3x the price that does not use the one thing I paid a premium for. LED benefits from a reflector just like a T5 bulb. The lack of power issue would be easily remedied by having some emitters that fire toward the reflector.

I'm pretty sure that those that have purchased a quality T5 fixture aren't going to be in the market for this, as they probably went this direction after not liking LEDs. For those with cheaper fixtures, this "could" be a good way to increase performance with minimal work.

 

Now, I say "could" because we just don't know all the nitty gritty details on how well it actually performs. What I have read so far on the web about how they are achieving their results worries me some (what I have read mentions that everything is done with phosphor blending versus using a mix of discrete colors), but like they say, the proof is in the pudding.

 

As for the cost, sure, the tubes are 3x more than an ATI bulb, but last 8-10x longer with less energy usage (depending on die operating temperature). Sounds like a positive there to me. The upfront cost sucks, but the savings could be seen within three years.

 

If you had LEDs around the entire circumference of the tube, how would you cool it? It's possible, but certainly not in a form factor that would work as a direct T5 replacement. Anyway, regardless of how good the reflector is, there are still losses associated with using them. If you need extra power, point it down where you need and want it. Pointing it up at a reflector seems like a waste of time. Sure reflectors and LED can go together well, when they are designed to complement each other. T5 reflectors and LEDs do not complement each other.

 

 

Anyway, I'm not saying I'm sold on this approach, but I'd rather shoot it down due to things that make sense, like not being able to cool itself well, not having good spectrum, and not having enough power. Really, the T5 format for LEDs is a tough one to make work at reasonable power levels. They were having a hard enough time when Sunbrite was trying their hand at T8 tubes at similar power levels. I'm far more concerned with that than if it will utilize the T5 reflector. These extrusions they use are hollow to allow for a driver to be placed inside. As a result, the outer surface is all that is available to dissipate heat. That's not a lot of surface area for a decent amount of power.

 

Supposedly the 24" replacement runs at 15W. By the general rule of thumb (10sq in. per watt), 15W needs 150sq in. of surface area for passive cooling with decent die temperatures. Reduce the requirement by 25% to run closer to the die threshold, and you are looking at 112sq in of surface area. Now, the body of the LED tube will be about 20" long. T5 format is 5/8" in diameter. Assuming the radiating area is only half of the tube, you only get about 21sq in of surface area on the tube if the surface is smooth. Adding texture won't significantly increase surface area. It may double it, but it's still a far cry from what it would need to adequately cool 15W passively, especially in an enclosed, uncooled T5 housing, where most of these would go.

 

This is what I'm concerned with, not whether it uses the fixtures reflector.

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If one buys a quality t5 fixture for the reflectors then one shouldn't buy a quality T5 fixture for these lamps.

 

Instead buy a cheap one and strip out the unused reflectors. Then swap the ballasts out for quality ballasts. Now you have lots of unused space to work in some fans for active cooling.

 

Personally I'd wish they took a cob array approach to this. Remote phosphor coating with discrete emmiters to fill in spectral gaps. Like Lumileds crisp white cobs with violet emmiters.

 

That way they could use primarily shades of blue LEDs with some cyan/violet/lime/red emmiters to fill in spectral gaps.

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  • 3 months later...

Has anyone had a chance to try these yet? Looks like they have been available on marine depot's site for a while now.

 

I'm looking at the 48"bulbs for my FW planted tank right now. At $70 each for 48's, it's a damn good price considering the very least I sped on my T5HO's is about $20 each per year, and that's pushing them past when they should be replaced. The break even for me on cost for my 4 x 48 tek fixture is under 4 years on these LED retros.

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Got two coming in tomorrow (Cool Daylight and Blue Pop). I'm sure I'll have them in the fixture in no time flat, but it may take a while before I can get them over the spectrometer and do a teardown of the lamps themselves

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Got two coming in tomorrow (Cool Daylight and Blue Pop). I'm sure I'll have them in the fixture in no time flat, but it may take a while before I can get them over the spectrometer and do a teardown of the lamps themselves

 

Even actual initial impressions on color and brightness compared to T5HO's would be great. I've seen a few pictures, but any first hand experience is better in my book.

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masterbuilder

From another forum...... Poster said it was in a 60" ATI fixture and the lamp tested is the E5 Cool Daylight.

 

"At the water line with the fixture 12 inches above the PAR was 120 to 125. 6 inches below the waterline 95 - 100 12 inches under the water line 82 - 85 and on the sand bed 79"

 

I have no interest in these but still looking forward to Evils thoughts on his. I already have a good idea that what the outcome will be.

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From another forum...... Poster said it was in a 60" ATI fixture and the lamp tested is the E5 Cool Daylight.

 

"At the water line with the fixture 12 inches above the PAR was 120 to 125. 6 inches below the waterline 95 - 100 12 inches under the water line 82 - 85 and on the sand bed 79"

 

I have no interest in these but still looking forward to Evils thoughts on his. I already have a good idea that what the outcome will be.

 

Yikes. These sound like a cool idea but that is pretty piss poor PAR.

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masterbuilder

 

Yikes. These sound like a cool idea but that is pretty piss poor PAR.

 

Right. Not bashing Euroquatics though. While these dont seem to be suited for reef tanks, I think they may be workable for FO or fresh water planted tanks....if thats your thing.

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Right. Not bashing Euroquatics though. While these dont seem to be suited for reef tanks, I think they may be workable for FO or fresh water planted tanks....if thats your thing.

 

Seems about right for higher-tech planted tanks. At 18" it should be roughly 50% of the surface PAR. With 4 strips going, and better CRI at lower temps, 240+ on the sandbed should be very usable if the color is decent. Should be fine for softies / LPS / easy SPS but definitely not going to cut it for acros or other high light SPS unless you have 8 bulbs.

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Right. Not bashing Euroquatics though. While these dont seem to be suited for reef tanks, I think they may be workable for FO or fresh water planted tanks....if thats your thing.

 

For sure. With any new item there is always a limit on the first run. If they sell these well I bet they do a big upgrade. I'm intrigued in them and I have an ATI with 6 beautiful ATI bulbs haha

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One thing I'm curious about is if there is any appreciable difference in the output between different ballasts. If they did their homework and the drivers are built well, then there should be no difference at all. But, with the tube being so small, I wonder how they managed to make the driver small enough to fit, at least compared to the direct replacement T5/T8 LED tube drivers I've seen in the past. Last one I saw was in a T8 tube and slipped into a cavity behind the LEDs and was about 6" long (and obviously quite skinny). A T5 tube isn't big enough to have that cavity, so the only place to put it is up with the LEDs.

 

Needless to say, tomorrow will be interesting.

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  • 6 months later...

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