How do I understand my water?

[holy carp]

Can anyone help me understand what's going on with my water?

 

I test regularly, and from my admittedly limited experience, nothing appears alarming in the tests. Here's a time series of my water tests.

 

 

I feel like water changes are almost hurting more than they're helping. The blue bars are when I've done 5 gallon water changes. After each, my acro hasn't been too happy. Before September I was doing more frequent smaller changes along the way - during any fish/coral acclimation and a gallon here and there for good measure, but I marked the large 5 gallon changes because they seem to have an impact to the water chemistry, while the smaller ones don't. I'm also dosing ESV 2 part manually trying to keep dKH in the 7's - works out to about 5ml of each part about twice a week.

 

This gif is a time series of my purple acro from the beginning of August until today. This coral has been in the tank since the end of June, so it wasn't that new, and at the beginning of August, it looked like it was doing quite well. The photos aren't perfectly spaced out, but you can see reduction in coloration and polyp extension, and after my last water change I even got a waxy coating on it, which is visible in the last 2 shots.

 

The base seems to continue encrusting in spite of the difference in appearance, so I don't think it's dying...

 

 

Over labor day, my chaeto got overgrown with cotton candy algae. I culled half of it, and since then, I've had more green dusty algae on my glass and now I'm growing some GHA on some of the rocks, and in (not really on) the sand seems to be some red growth which may be cyano... The chaeto and cotton candy algae in the sump are hardly growing now.

 

Am I missing something? Any suggestions? I'm not sure if I should be doing more water changes or less. More aggressive sand bed vacuuming/agitation? Why have I never seen nitrates? I'm using the Red Sea Algae Control and Reef Foundation Pro test kits.

 

Additionally for reference, this is a 12G display with a 10G tank as a sump, and roughly 15G total water in the system. I have one of those 8"x4" Poly-Filters in the sump along with the chaeto and a sock with some Marineland activated carbon.

 

Thanks.

[brandon429]

How in the realm of human experience and possibility are you getting the pictures to auto cycle like that on my iPad browser

 

Don't mistake polyp withdrawl for unhappiness the water changes and the feeding could be improved IMO

The sps and lps can have slime instances, instances of full expansion or contraction, and they do this in the wild when grazers pick at them it is not indicative of tank chem issues each time

 

They love water changes not fear them

The corals will take on slightly different hues tones and morphologies per each tank if it's adding base plate mass it's in the right direction and color maintence is a fun goal after

 

Your coral doesn't appear to be in decline I think it could use good target feeding and water changes for three mos then another follow up set of rotating comp pictures mixed with these

 

 

Problems compound when you mix in GHA issues with supposed nutrient issues

 

You don't have nutrient issues here GHA doesn't mean that each time, just kill it and hand siphon remove during these water changes and continue course. I say don't struggle to understand further than is posted in fine detail just spot feed nicely diversely, change water to export it before it rots, make sure lighting is just right intensity and reevaluate in 3 mos that sps will have base plated nicely

[holy carp]

Thanks for the reply.

 

Regarding the photo - it's an animated gif I made using http://gifmaker.me Then I uploaded to photobucket.com for hosting.

I'll keep a continuing photo log of this frag - fortunately the phone pressed up against the glass seems to catch it pretty well.

 

 

Now, for the suggestions - you're saying more water changes and manually removing the green stuff will help. OK, will do. But what did you mean about the feeding? I have 3 little fishies - 2 ocellaris and an orchid dottyback. I feed them lightly twice a day and alternate between little pellets and frozen.

 

On feeding coral - how can I target feed if the polyps don't open? They have been almost entirely closed for the last 2 weeks. Also, is the waxy coating normal? Is that part of a cycle or a response to alkalinity shock from water changes?

 

All that said, I miss the beautiful purple and green contrast, but won't panic...

[brandon429]

They will all adapt to water change variance it is not to be feared, but something they must adapt to and we trust they will. It's not that you have to change water, many have the goal of automation to stop that. It's that when in doubt increased water changes allow you to feed more and heterotrophic feeding will add mass to sps then the color nuances are up to the smaller details. Keeping it undebatably alive is the first goal then the color tuners can chime in

 

Polyps may open at 4 am have to check but even mine eat mid day if you put a tad bit of cyclopeeze in the water first as a tease. Spot feeding with things like roti feast are sure bets for adding sps mass over three mos regardless of the polyps being out. You provide the work, they harvest it in ways we didn't account for (micro adhesion on the actual coral flesh polyps still might access as one)

 

Slow return on investment, it's three mos of trust. Each interval you choose target inject creatively and slowly some roti pods or other sure fire sps feed then change water afterwards with a little more work than you normally do. Sustain three mos and kill algae separate and independent of this course will for sure add sps mass each time.

 

I feel that chemical dosing and adjustments to alk are riskier than water change variance. High alk and bright light and low heterotrophic feed availability is most people's RTN thread.

[spinycheek]

Are you making sure the new water is the same salinity as the tank water at that time (not the target salinity, but check each salinity before transferring any water). I've seen problems from the new water being lower than the tank water because the tank water salinity creeps up, then you drop it a couple points during the water change. Not saying that's at all what's happening, but something to watch out for if you aren't already. I am impressed by your organization of tests done

[Nano sapiens]

From your parmas, looks like you are not seeing any NO3, but some PO4 later on. Typically, one would see both (NO3 typically higher than PO4) if PO4 was detectable. Could be a testing thing since much depends on which test kits are used, if they haven't expired, etc.

 

I'd suggest going back to more frequent WCs and about 10%/wk total. Less stress on the system/organisms.

 

Coloration is tricky since many factors (lighting, nutrition, water params/condition) can make a coral look different from one tank to another. As long as it is growing and there is no STN or RTN, then just work on subtle changes to the system overall and observe. Spot-feeding can be helpful, so definitely give that a try.

[holy carp]

OK, this is a lot of good info.

 

 

Are you making sure the new water is the same salinity as the tank water at that time (not the target salinity, but check each salinity before transferring any water). I've seen problems from the new water being lower than the tank water because the tank water salinity creeps up, then you drop it a couple points during the water change. Not saying that's at all what's happening, but something to watch out for if you aren't already. I am impressed by your organization of tests done

 

Yes. I keep the tank at its target 1.025 with manual topoff whenever I feed the fish. I hooked up an aqualifter than runs on a 2 minute timer, so whenever I see the sump's return compartment lower than my mark, I press a button and run the aqualifter cycle. I'm looking into an ATO, but they're some real coin, and this has been working pretty well for me. The highest I've seen the tank get is 1.026. I always mix new saltwater to 1.025, so it can't cause more of a salinity variance than doing water topoff. I also make sure to get the new saltwater for a PWC up to 78°F (tank's temp) before adding.

 

From your parmas, looks like you are not seeing any NO3, but some PO4 later on. Typically, one would see both (NO3 typically higher than PO4) if PO4 was detectable. Could be a testing thing since much depends on which test kits are used, if they haven't expired, etc.

 

I'd suggest going back to more frequent WCs and about 10%/wk total. Less stress on the system/organisms.

 

Coloration is tricky since many factors (lighting, nutrition, water params/condition) can make a coral look different from one tank to another. As long as it is growing and there is no STN or RTN, then just work on subtle changes to the system overall and observe. Spot-feeding can be helpful, so definitely give that a try.

 

You and Brandon seem to agree, so my new plan will be 2.5 gallons/week after target feeding sps food. Midweek I'll do one dose of 2-part to keep the Ca and Alk in check. When the algae stops being an issue, I may increase the WC interval to biweekly.

 

Regarding the testing, I'm pretty perplexed that there have been no nitrates. I can't imagine this little system has enough anaerobic regions to handle it even though the biolode is light (unless that Marinepure block in the sump really is as good as they claim). I checked the test kits, and they don't expire until 04/17, so I think I can trust the results. Maybe I'll take a sample to the LFS for a second opinion. I'm hoping the PO4 falls back in line with water changes. I was contemplating trying some chemipure elite to help keep the phosphates down if that could be the cause of the algae. I can't imagine it's causing the browning of the coral, but I'm no expert...

 

Gotta get this all in order for the Manhattan Reefs Fall Frag swap coming up!

[Nano sapiens]

The main take-away is that anything you can do to promote stability will benefit the organisms.

 

In a calcareous sand bed, the same conditions that promote denitrification also tend to promote phosphate utilization. The process may differ in a ceramic Marine block (different substrate, potentially different aerobic/anoxic/anaerobic conditions which can promote different kinds/numbers of bacteria, etc.).

[holy carp]

Well, thanks again for everyone's advice.

 

Since 10/11, I've been changing 3+gallons per week. It's helped this particular acropora quickly and tremendously.

 

Now my latest challenge has become cyano growing all over the sand bed...

 

Here's an update of the acro time lapse:

 

[brandon429]

That type of time refresh sequence pic is perhaps the best impact documentation I've seen where tank care shows on a specific frag

 

I can't believe how neat that is. It's responding to the nutrients well, I stare at a certain spot on the rock even after this last set and the base and color are improving and begin to overtake that little indentation spot

 

 

For the cyano, I have no concern and I certainly wouldn't treat it with chems. That is the one chief invader in reefing that our tanks -exchange- with the environment, all reefs, all the time, and they either express as a colony or not. We have changed variables and it's capitalizing but not badly, so with each increased water change work I'd be getting most all of the water via siphoning out that cyano as simple focused removal. This is a work work period where your sps will respond and the hands off mode is cruise control when it's time to back off a bit and ramp down.

 

Cyano is the only invader my tank sees as I've burned out all the rest that rely on hitchhiking to take off. Am through stocking as well, so cyano and its globe-traveling characters make it my canary for work time as I put things off in my own tank.

 

One rip cleaning which for a pico is total sandbed and live rock cleaning and 100% water change and it's gone, I attack too many fronts for it to thrive on this current input population.

 

But large tanks that preclude a work over of the sandbed as needed, to remove not some detritus but 100% of it at all depths all at once, will have persistence in cyano colonies that takes smaller intervals of repeated work to get a hold. Would you post a full tank shot when you can I'm curious as to how hard a thorough cleaning run looks to do per your variables. Just to get an idea a pic would be neat, if it auto cycles in some way that's fine it's the sandbed details on the cross section where you can see its depths on the front take shot was my curiosity

 

 

Someone needs to do this pic technique on a sandbed that starts clean and then gets dirty people sink up waste because they don't see it traveling over time and this would be a quick lapse showing how detrital zones penetrate down into the bed of a hands off type sandbed.

 

 

Everything we do in pico reefing tank take downs is non mini or full cycle, it's the same biology for larger tanks just more work. Controlling a cycle is the easiest trick in reefing, you can take apart and put back a reef in specific orders hundreds of times w no cycle, we do this across several threads and in my tank literally taken apart, blast cleaned, and put back together w 14 yr old corals. You may not need deep cleaning at all, just brainstorming.

 

Cyano simply indicates export in simplest terms and it starves them. Not many cleaned bare bottom tanks have cyano.

[holy carp]

That type of time refresh sequence pic is perhaps the best impact documentation I've seen where tank care shows on a specific frag

 

I also really enjoy seeing the time-lapse changes in the corals - I've been doing this with my 2 acros for the past couple months - basically since I got them into their final position. Here's the other one if you're interested - its growth has been much more dramatic:

http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/363143-sleeping-with-the-fishes-now-with-fts/?p=5163527

That one must also be less sensitive, since it really didn't seem to be affected by the water when the purple one did.

 

Thanks for the insights. My tank is relatively small, so a thorough sand-vacuuming may be an option. I just had reservations of doing so as I thought it might remove too much of the beneficial nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria. I had done a bit of research and didn't find much consensus around whether to stir, vacuum, or not disturb sand beds. Can vacuuming it be done into a sock, or will the cyano just go right through the felt?

 

I'm just amazed at how quickly the cyano grows during the day. It's invisible at night. Unfortunately, it's mainly during the day while I'm at work that it blooms on the sand bed. By the time I get home in the evening, the moonlights are on and the cyano has already faded, though it's clearly still healthy. I'll get a good FTS this weekend when I'm home during full bloom.

 

Now it's interesting that I have hardly any other algae in the display tank right now (knock wood). My sump's chaeto is dying back slowly, but there is some cotton candy growing on the remains of the chaeto and what looks like it might be gha growing on the sump glass. So perhaps it's the cyano that is so effectively consuming nutrients that would otherwise feed algae?

[brandon429]

Holy carp

 

http://reef2reef.com/threads/minimal-growth-colors-fading-and-cyano-growing-need-help.222345/#post-2561184

 

hope you are happy to see your work helping other sps with visual references. People want to know what their 3 month ramped up water change and gourmet feed regimen w do, payoff or not payoff.

 

Never thought to just focus on one frag...leave it up to a nano reefer to consider that angle. Many times we look at the macro level to assess tank turnaround but simply wanting the base of that is coral pic gold. It is disease reversal as lightening frags specifically fail to virus and bacterial infections.

 

I'm highly slanted lol consider others cyano approach in balance. To me, the chaeto isn't critical to the tank and could be responding to a number of variable changes, that's more impactful when the tank is more hands off mode. The DT algae and restoration of the sps is the sole goal. The cyano can absolutely be fixed like I show below. And if that's too crazy then lightly battling it mos won't hurt anybody, heck 3/4 of our hobby wants that mode.

 

But if you want a slam dunk fix, both removing the cyano and 100% of the source all at once, no rebound, consider this other thread from friends at reef2reef

Pic and procedure gold, it's hard to trust I know. But look at the direction your tank was indicating, old course won't do.

 

Partially messing with an old sandbed is risky. Fully cleaning it in one pass is healthy, no mid ground

 

http://reef2reef.com/threads/lets-discuss-if-this-picture-holds-the-key-to-indefinite-reef-life-span.222105/

 

Summary:

 

It is a gross misnomer about cycling and large tank work and removing bacteria we've all cut teeth on

 

It's no fault for anyone to listen to the works of the day that built our hobby. But consider this, as recently as the 90s the top reef authors of the day said a reef like the one stickied in the picos forum here was impossible on nine levels. Tanks 1/4 that size thrive right now in droves on YouTube.

 

But If a breakaway claim comes with someone willing to take a ten year old pico reef apart and part it all out on dinner plates and mix the sand top to bottom and put it all back together zero cycle, every time, never failing, as a mode of regular maintenance then I'd say some authors need to get to double updating.heh

 

Your thread is highly impactful I've emailed it to myself to link around people will value it for sure. Pics are too shocking. Pls update if you can I can't imagine what 12 more mos w look like.

[Nano sapiens]

 

Thanks for the insights. My tank is relatively small, so a thorough sand-vacuuming may be an option. I just had reservations of doing so as I thought it might remove too much of the beneficial nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria. I had done a bit of research and didn't find much consensus around whether to stir, vacuum, or not disturb sand beds. Can vacuuming it be done into a sock, or will the cyano just go right through the felt?

 

I'm just amazed at how quickly the cyano grows during the day. It's invisible at night. Unfortunately, it's mainly during the day while I'm at work that it blooms on the sand bed. By the time I get home in the evening, the moonlights are on and the cyano has already faded, though it's clearly still healthy. I'll get a good FTS this weekend when I'm home during full bloom.

 

Now it's interesting that I have hardly any other algae in the display tank right now (knock wood). My sump's chaeto is dying back slowly, but there is some cotton candy growing on the remains of the chaeto and what looks like it might be gha growing on the sump glass. So perhaps it's the cyano that is so effectively consuming nutrients that would otherwise feed algae?

 

Vacuuming can be really simple with a commercial gravel vac and some practice. I spliced a plastic valve in the line of mine for total control.

 

Vacuuming a sand bed that hasn't been touched for a while (or ever) requires caution. Always do small sections at a time each time you do a WC. After the sand bed is clean, then you can do any portion, or even the whole bed, if you like.

 

You mention Cyano. Do you have a pic since 'Cyano' has become a catch phrase for all kinds of alga?