heifinator Posted September 18, 2015 Share Posted September 18, 2015 Hey everybody, I have a tank that has been up for 3 years and been doing great. A year ago I had to move the tank. Everything moved fine however since the move I have a brown diatom - looking pest on the sand bed. It hasn't affected anything else and I have no other pest algaes in the system really. The System 65G display - 40G sump (~75 actual water volume) SG: 1.025 Ammonia: Undetectable Nitrite: Undetectable Nitrate: <5 Po4: Undetectable (hanna) Calc: 440 Alk: 9dkh Mag: 1200 Temp: 79 Flow ~500gph return & 2x MP10 nutrient export @ 80% What I have tried: Increase water changes from 10g weekly to 20g for 2 months Siphon sandbed till clean during water changes for 2 months Increase mag to 1500 for 2 months Maintained RODI carefully (Output < ~4tds then replace all pre-filters & DI) Skimmed Wet for the last year Ran GFO in reactor for the last year (changing every ~2 weeks - Running around 1/4 cup @ slow tumble) Added additional clean up crew I am at a loss, all SPS and corals are growing great, NO other issues however this is getting frustrating! Any help would be appreciated. I feed daily (3x week mysis blend / 4x week new spectrum pelets) I am out of ideas... Ignore the cloudiness, I had just moved some rock and stirred up the tank some in the process. Link to comment
Pinner Reef Posted September 18, 2015 Share Posted September 18, 2015 That looks more like Cyano or Dinoflagellates rather than diatoms IMO. Do you happen to have access to a microscope? Link to comment
amphipod Posted September 18, 2015 Share Posted September 18, 2015 Why not simply leave it? It is kinda pretty the red sand look in my opinion. Probably Cyanobacteria also. Link to comment
Bingo1213 Posted September 18, 2015 Share Posted September 18, 2015 Looks like cyano. I'd try chemi clean. Link to comment
Nano sapiens Posted September 18, 2015 Share Posted September 18, 2015 If you stir up the sand bed a bit, does it stay white for a few hours and then return? Does it intensify greatly when the lights come on? If so, then this is quite common since this organism thrives in the same good conditions that our corals do. I had this pop up around 2 years ago when I switched salt mixes to RC which has additonal nutrients added (*may* be factor). It harms nothing as long as it doesn't get so thick that it encroaches on the live rock/corals. No amount of tank cleaning (or lack thereof) seems to matter to it and manipulating temp and chemistry parameters have had no noticeable effect. Might be diatoms, might be a type of cyano (hard to say without a microscope). I use RO/DI exclusively ('0' TDS) so silicates to fuel diatom growth from the water source would be minimal...unless the salt mix has a high silicate content. Whatever it is, I believe that it utilizes the PO4 liberated by bacteria from the calcareous substrate and so is mostly confined to the sand bed. It's also at least part of the reason that we see undetectable PO4 (I don't run GFO, GAC or a skimmer). After I'm done with my current salt mix, I'll be looking for a quality salt with low silicates and no added nutrient/vitamin boosters to see if that makes a difference. Link to comment
heifinator Posted September 18, 2015 Author Share Posted September 18, 2015 That looks more like Cyano or Dinoflagellates rather than diatoms IMO. Do you happen to have access to a microscope? No microscope Why not simply leave it? It is kinda pretty the red sand look in my opinion. Probably Cyanobacteria also. I think its horrible ugly so not a good solution, thanks though Looks like cyano. I'd try chemi clean. I did chemi clean, it killed about 70% and then it all came back, did it 3 times. I also did a 5 day lights out to no avail. If you stir up the sand bed a bit, does it stay white for a few hours and then return? Does it intensify greatly when the lights come on? If so, then this is quite common since this organism thrives in the same good conditions that our corals do. I had this pop up around 2 years ago when I switched salt mixes to RC which has additonal nutrients added (*may* be factor). It harms nothing as long as it doesn't get so thick that it encroaches on the live rock/corals. No amount of tank cleaning (or lack thereof) seems to matter to it and manipulating temp and chemistry parameters have had no noticeable effect. Might be diatoms, might be a type of cyano (hard to say without a microscope). I use RO/DI exclusively ('0' TDS) so silicates to fuel diatom growth from the water source would be minimal...unless the salt mix has a high silicate content. Whatever it is, I believe that it utilizes the PO4 liberated by bacteria from the calcareous substrate and so is mostly confined to the sand bed. It's also at least part of the reason that we see undetectable PO4 (I don't run GFO, GAC or a skimmer). After I'm done with my current salt mix, I'll be looking for a quality salt with low silicates and no added nutrient/vitamin boosters to see if that makes a difference. When I siphon it all out it stays clean until a few hours later, it goes away almost completely at night. I tried doing my water changes right when the lights turn out and I can see it and then it goes 8 hours without light, no help. I also switched to Reef Crystals at one point but I don't believe it was at the same time this happened. My RODI is outputting at 0TDS and I replace prefilters / DI at around 3TDS. Maybe a salt change would be a decent idea... Link to comment
Markburns43 Posted September 18, 2015 Share Posted September 18, 2015 Looks like diatoms is it dusty when you blownit around? And its coming back because your adding its key building block, most likely silicate, inwould as stated changenyournsalt mix fornawhile if your positive that your rodi unit and tds meter are spot on. I'd rather deal eith this than cyano or eeeekk dinos good luck mate Link to comment
heifinator Posted September 21, 2015 Author Share Posted September 21, 2015 New salt is on the way. I am not super confident that will resolve the issue. I have another tank at my office and I use the same salt and same RO water without this issue. Link to comment
Nano sapiens Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 New salt is on the way. I am not super confident that will resolve the issue. I have another tank at my office and I use the same salt and same RO water without this issue. True, it may not resolve the issue, but it may help. Conditions in separate tanks will of course be different, so how the salt mix is utilized in both may be different, too. Link to comment
brandon429 Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 For sure if that was my tank id have it corrected. that is a large grain sandbed that will take on waste quicker than oolitic would, so some nutrient liberation while moving isnt bad or unexpected, these are the colonies that rise up and make use of that upwelling and theyll go down in time with focused removal. I wouldnt use any chems, my mode would be the long term fix. Id remove 100% of the sandbed after having placed rocks and fish in holding buckets of tank water then the sand bed would be rinsed 100% in tap water, since it wont kill off your nitrifier bed in short rinse, a reef misnomer, and id put back in that bed or an oolitic one depending on the looks you like all clean and free of waste. Having done this to numerous dsbs of my own and having others do this through pm, it would be the 1000th time we've had it done if you wanted to start that algae or cyano would be gone and have the best chance of staying gone having been through the ringer like that. as with every tank action we do, this would not cause a cycle. we haven't caused cycles since 2001. we successfully rinse DSB's in tap is because you can wash them over and over until literally no detritus comes out, then do the last run with clean saltwater to export the tap from in between the sand grains. such that when its back in your tank, you can pick up a handfull, drop it to the bottom with no clouding, my own tank is like this after 9 yrs on the same sandbed. it was an insta-whack of nutrients, fresh start, and corals popping with happiness The bacteria are not fully rinsed from the rocks as tap water in quick rinse doesnt break scum bonds all that well, and a matrix of both nitrifying bacteria and mixed aerobes warring over turf exists on each sand grain, along with the mud we spent all this work removing. Id then start the tank with all new water. again, everything we do is work intense and designed for longevity, its hard work but a guaranteed outcome. this would have to be repeated again as the bed ages and the next upwelling redoes this event...any form of using meds other than hard work for your particular tank is kicking the can down the road, the tank is too small to contain upwelled detritus and it not go to eager communities like monerans or diatoms. Link to comment
Markburns43 Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 So that would make sense you moved stirred the sand bed silicates most likely released from your dsb ride it out it will go away or do as mentioned above clean it put 100 percent upto you . Link to comment
Nano sapiens Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 Another method that I've used successfully in the past for cyano mats (and may use again, here) is to carefully skim the top layer of sand taking the algae with it every few days. Obviously, a form of organism/nutrient export that is less drastic than a full sand bed change that is worth a try. Link to comment
gulfsurfer101 Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 Here's the problem with that specific junk, the more water changes your going to do the more is going to stay around. Stop doing them. Run some purigen in your reactor instead just don't tumble it. The purigen will bind up silicates and the lack of water changes will starve it out. I had this issue really bad after I moved my 75g and was doing 10g wc's every other day beyond frustrated with how it kept coming back. Now it's been an issue of the past. I normally do just a large 30g wc in my 75g every other month or so. Link to comment
heifinator Posted September 22, 2015 Author Share Posted September 22, 2015 Here's the problem with that specific junk, the more water changes your going to do the more is going to stay around. Stop doing them. Run some purigen in your reactor instead just don't tumble it. The purigen will bind up silicates and the lack of water changes will starve it out. I had this issue really bad after I moved my 75g and was doing 10g wc's every other day beyond frustrated with how it kept coming back. Now it's been an issue of the past. I normally do just a large 30g wc in my 75g every other month or so. Purigen doesn't remove silicates or phosphates as per the package... That would be phosgaurd which has other issues (leaching). Why are you recommending purigen over GFO? Just curious. Link to comment
gulfsurfer101 Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 I'm sorry, I stand corrected. Phosgaurd is what you need to sttip silicates from your water. I don't know why I mentioned purigen. It must've been late like it is now. You can use it at your own discretion or just let them die off naturally and dose to keep up with your parameters while you starve them out by not doing wc's. Link to comment
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