Help to Understand This

[ReviloM]

My tank:
50g, SPS dominant (1 large colony, several mini colonies and frags), LPS corals


I just started the Fauna Marin Balling Light additives last night. I originally was using ESV.

I followed the directions for fauna marin and did my initial testing of Ca (Red Sea) and Alk (Hanna). I haven't done magnesium yet but last I tested I was at 1420ppm. So below were my results:

Initial:
Ca: 360ppm
Alk: 7.67 dKH
pH: 8.12 (apex probe)


I then added 5ml of the ALK supplement and and 10mL of the Ca supplement which raised the paramaters to:
Alk : 7.84 dKH
Ca: 375 ppm

I set my doser to begin ALK supplementation in the amount of 10mL starting at 1am - 5am (2ml every hour) and the Ca to dose only 2.8mL at 1pm.

I just did another test for today just now and got these results:

Ca: 355 ppm
Alk: 7.67 dKH
pH: 8.23 (Apex probe)

I redid the hanna alkalinity test & Red Sea Ca test and got the same reading.


How is it possible for my Ca to be consumed that much when it never dropped that fast with the ESV supplement? It has been less than 24hrs. Also, my pH never went that high unless my doser was adding Alk supplement at the time I notice but it would eventually go back down.

[gus6464]

Ca, Alk, and Mg all balance each other out. You are not testing Mg and that is likely the culprit why Ca and Alk are not going up. The hobby really needs to start pushing 3-part for dosing as Mg is just as important as the other two.

[12_egg_Omelette]

Ca, Alk, and Mg all balance each other out. You are not testing Mg and that is likely the culprit why Ca and Alk are not going up. The hobby really needs to start pushing 3-part for dosing as Mg is just as important as the other two.

Bingo! The people running calcium reactors see the benefit of adding magnesium supplementation into calcium reactors.

[Admonition]

Like with all two parts, test your mag and get it to your desired number first, then try to change your alk and calc.

[12_egg_Omelette]

I would also stay away from lower quality magnesiums that have a lot of heavy metals like kent tech m.

[ReviloM]

Ca, Alk, and Mg all balance each other out. You are not testing Mg and that is likely the culprit why Ca and Alk are not going up. The hobby really needs to start pushing 3-part for dosing as Mg is just as important as the other two.

I stated the magnesium was 1420 ppm when i last tested which was 3 days ago. I just didn't test the same night because I hadn't set up the magnesium to my doser yet.

Like with all two parts, test your mag and get it to your desired number first, then try to change your alk and calc.

 

 

I would also stay away from lower quality magnesiums that have a lot of heavy metals like kent tech m.

I originally used ESV magnesium and now it will be the Fauna Marin Magnesium.

[ReviloM]

Just tested magnesium and it was 1400ppm with my Red Sea test.

The explanation need is how that my levels drop dramatically as soon as I switch to Fauna Marin which is less than a 24hr switch? I was originally dosing ESV but it wasn't that much because I just moved to my new home last month and the corals haven't fully settled. It, also, was only a small drop for ALK (.4 dkh everyday) and Calcium only dropped 5ppm every other day when using ESV.

[Admonition]

I stated the magnesium was 1420 ppm when i last tested which was 3 days ago. I just didn't test the same night because I hadn't set up the magnesium to my doser yet.

Didn't know when "last time tested" was

 

Is it possible your doser malfunctioned? Or maybe your test kit reading were off? I agree I can't imagine it used up that much.

[ReviloM]

Didn't know when "last time tested" was

 

Is it possible your doser malfunctioned? Or maybe your test kit reading were off? I agree I can't imagine it used up that much.

Nope. Doser informs me of how much is dosed each day. it also beeps, loudly, when it is dosing. It is, also, calibrated in which I check every other week to make sure it is still calibrated by having it to dispense 10ml into a graduated cylinder. As for the test kits, I always take the steps to reduce human error such as proper drops, cleaning of testing vials by using ro/di water. test tube scrubber, and portable mattress blower, and proper timing using my kitchen timer. My test kits are not expired and doesn't do so till 12/2016. I thought it was testing as well which is why i redid it and got the same results.

 

I didn't do a WC as well to offset it.

[Admonition]

Have you tried testing it today, a day later and seeing the results? Are they proportionally lower than the last 'low' reading?

[ReviloM]

Have you tried testing it today, a day later and seeing the results? Are they proportionally lower than the last 'low' reading?

I will test them at 9pm to give it a full 24hrs. If I test now, it will not be accurate especially since my calcium doses at 1pm and I bumped it up to 10ml from 2.8mL and Alk from 10mL to 15mL.

[gus6464]

what mg test?

[ReviloM]

what mg test?

Red Sea

[metrokat]

The concentration of chemicals in ESV supplements are probably different than those found in FM leading to precipitation possibly. The Alk for example dropped and took the calcium with it, not in the same quantity as with the other supplements you were using - again pointing to the concentrations or make up of the chemicals being different from the other. Most salts mix with different parameters, I believe most supplements mix the same way too - different for each brand. You have to calibrate your dosing with your tank, every time you switch products.

 

RHF

Consequently, alkalinity depletion in most tanks (especially in short time frames) is tightly coupled to calcium depletion, and if one supplements calcium and alkalinity in proportions equal to those that they are being removed, then it is MUCH less likely that calcium and alkalinity will become imbalanced4 and thereby trickier to correct.

 

[ReviloM]

The concentration of chemicals in ESV supplements are probably different than those found in FM leading to precipitation possibly. The Alk for example dropped and took the calcium with it, not in the same quantity as with the other supplements you were using - again pointing to the concentrations or make up of the chemicals being different from the other. Most salts mix with different parameters, I believe most supplements mix the same way too - different for each brand. You have to calibrate your dosing with your tank, every time you switch products.

 

RHF

Yes, the concentration is different but the consumption rate by my tank should have remained constant for a matter days instead of immediately. It only took a little of ESV to raise alkalinity and it takes slightly more with Fauna Marin but that isn't the issue; the consumption rate is.

 

Is Randy a woman? I ask because of the hyphenated last name not that it matters on the expertise.

[metrokat]

Yes, the concentration is different but the consumption rate by my tank should have remained constant for a matter days instead of immediately. It only took a little of ESV to raise alkalinity and it takes slightly more with Fauna Marin but that isn't the issue; the consumption rate is.

 

Is Randy a woman? I ask because of the hyphenated last name not that it matters on the expertise.

Randy Holmes Farley is the most respected reef chemistry expert in the hobby.

Randy is not a woman.

You can't be sure that it is consumption and not precipitation.

[ReviloM]

Randy Holmes Farley is the most respected reef chemistry expert in the hobby.

Randy is not a woman.

Ok.

[ReviloM]

Randy Holmes Farley is the most respected reef chemistry expert in the hobby.

Randy is not a woman.

You can't be sure that it is consumption and not precipitation.

Doesn't Calcium precipitation show evidence of it?

[neuwave]

If I were you I would start checking what the fauna Marin is comprised of compared to the ESV. I'm fairly sure both brands use calcium chloride as the calcium supplement. But check on the alkalinity additives. They could be made of sodium hydrogen carbonate / sodium bicarbonate or sodium carbonate or a blend of each. They will affect your water in different ways thus your dosing amounts and precipitation rates. I haven't used either fauna Marin or ESV supplements so I can't tell you which has what. RHF can explain the differences in more detail for your system

[ReviloM]

If I were you I would start checking what the fauna Marin is comprised of compared to the ESV. I'm fairly sure both brands use calcium chloride as the calcium supplement. But check on the alkalinity additives. They could be made of sodium hydrogen carbonate / sodium bicarbonate or sodium carbonate or a blend of each. They will affect your water in different ways thus your dosing amounts and precipitation rates. I haven't used either fauna Marin or ESV supplements so I can't tell you which has what. RHF can explain the differences in more detail for your system

ESV contains sodium, carbonate, and bicarbonate according to the ingredients on the container so it is a mixture. Fauna Marin is sodium bicarbonate.

[gus6464]

Does Fauna Marin recommend different dosing amounts? Every 2-part solution I have used always says to put the same amount of both A and B in the tank. That might be what is causing the precipitation.

[ReviloM]

Does Fauna Marin recommend different dosing amounts? Every 2-part solution I have used always says to put the same amount of both A and B in the tank. That might be what is causing the precipitation.

No, it is based on consumption rate which can be different for each parameter. Here is a copy and paste of the instructions:

 

Depending on the content of the aquarium, the individual solutions are now metered manually in order to determine the actual requirements. Before doing this, determine the current water values and make a note of the results. (Ca, Mg, Alk) Example: 50 ml of canister 1 into a 500-litre aquarium. Value before dosing = 380 mg of calcium. After 2 hours, repeat the test the calcium value after the 2nd test is then 400 mg of calcium. In this example, the addition of 50 ml of the solution from canister 1 increases the calcium value by 20 mg/litre for a 500-litre aquarium. Now program the dosing computer to add 7 ml of solution 1 once a day, i.e. 50 ml of the solution spread over a week. After a week measure the calcium value again and note it has only risen to 390 mg/litre, although in a pure arithmetic sense this should have risen to 400 mg/litre. This method determines the actual loss of calcium that is to be compensated in the system. Due to chemical precipitation, growth or the use of water treatment agents, the actual calcium loss that is determined may differ from the calculated value. You can now easily adjust the dosage level by increasing the value by 3 ml per day. 50 ml = +20 mg/7 days = 7 ml Therefore, to obtain the value + 30 mg, 75 ml/7 days = 10 ml must be added.Using this simple 3-part calculation you can easily adjust each of your desired values and set an automatic dosing schedule in just a few days. A daily inspection of the calcium (Ca test), magnesium (Mg test) and dKH values (KH test) is to be conducted at the start and the dosing quantity must be adjusted on the device if necessary.

 

http://static.faunamarin.de/manuals/manual_balling-methode_eng.pdf

[ReviloM]

Ok just did my testing and got these results:

 

Calcium @ 10mL dosed - 360 ppm

Alkalinity @ 15mL dosed - 7.61 dKH