MindStream Aquarium Monitor KICKSTARTER

[Hexadron]

Seen this on Reef Builders this morning

 

Here is the link to the Kickstarter

 

I'm pumped, although with the crappy Canadian dollar, this will cost me close to $700 right now anyways, so I may as well wait for retail.

 

What do you guys think of this?

 

 

[Mirya]

The idea of this is pretty amazing. One important fact for me though is will this eventually be able to talk to something like an Apex.

[HarryPotter]

The idea of this is pretty amazing. One important fact for me though is will this eventually be able to talk to something like an Apex.

I dunno, a complete parameter unit with a nice WIFI app would be fantastic even w/o apex. It can send alarms, graph, analyze, etc.

[kirbaay]

I hope something like this is some what affordable!!

[HarryPotter]

I hope something like this is some what affordable!!

Going to be around $800+ 30 a month

[rhodium]

I'll give you my perspective and you can do with it what you will. I'm an analytical chemist and have been involved in analytical instrument design in startups in the past.

 

I think it's a great idea, but I do have a few concerns. My first questions are about the typical things you always want to know about a measurement instrument: accuracy, reproducibility, sensitivity, limits of detection, etc. They provided data comparing the performance to a high-end pH probe, but what about the other 9 parameters? I'd like to see that data. The next question is about the issue of having these fluorescence sensors exposed to the highly variable aquarium environment for 30 days. I don't have any doubt that they can get good, accurate measurements from them when a new sensor disc is first installed, but I question whether they have addressed all of the possible interferences and longer-term degradation effects that these sensors could undergo over a 30 day period. People use LOTS of different additives and things in their tanks, and I have a hard time believing that these sensors have been tested with all of them. It sounds like the sensor discs are calibrated at the factory, but how long can they maintain that calibration in the real world under the variety of different water chemistry conditions that are likely to be encountered?

 

Another concern is about the temperature sensitivity of the calibration process. This may be something that they have already studied thoroughly, but I didn't see the data on the Kickstarter site. How does the temperature of the water affect the measurement performance parameters (those listed above)? What happens if the unit is installed right under a very intense light and the temperature of the sensor disc is different than that of the water due to thermal effects from the light. Again, this might not be an issue at all, but then again it might.

 

All in all it looks like a very cool product, and seems to have been well designed. I would just like to see more data - but then again, that is my profession.

[kirbaay]

Going to be around $800+ 30 a month

 

Ouch haha thats basically a new fish tank. But this product is very versatile

[rturiak]

I dunno, a complete parameter unit with a nice WIFI app would be fantastic even w/o apex. It can send alarms, graph, analyze, etc.

I agree, it would be cool if it had the capability to talk to a controller unit so say if the calcium got below 420, it would run a dosing pump to get it up, ect

[Hexadron]

Okay, after my bitching about the dollar and that I took the bait and Pledged.

 

I'll be getting mine in December! Merry Christmas to me!

 

I hope they can add Phosphate and Nitrate in the future. That would make it totally hands off, and literally no manual testing required!

[rturiak]

Okay, after my bitching about the dollar and that I took the bait and Pledged.

 

I'll be getting mine in December! Merry Christmas to me!

 

I hope they can add Phosphate and Nitrate in the future. That would make it totally hands off, and literally no manual testing required!

we expect updates when you get it!

[Hig789]

Wow. I thought you were suppose to get deals on kick stater for backing projects. Can't imagine what this will cost on the market.

[masterbuilder]

The rumor is $600 and $30 for the replaceable disk. I heard the disk will last up to 90 days. All rumor though. Supposed to demo at MACNA.

[braaap]

The PH tracking reliability is cool but excessive. I feel like this is going to get people chasing numbers they don't need to chase and that is a bad thing.

[GHill762]

this thing has been taking forever to come out and the company went silent about it for a while after missing several of their targeted release dates.

 

I am very curious about it and hope it becomes cheaper, but I'll watch from the sidelines for a while.

[kimberbee]

Maybe a good idea for public aquariums and zoos... or really rich people. But that's waaaaay too much money for me to be interested in purchasing one.

[Eckozulu]

Add nitrate and phosphate, and I'm in.

[Mirya]

Jake Adams sounded pretty darn impressed in his newest post on ReefBuilders: Answers to the top 10 questions about the Mindstream aquarium monitor. That says a lot to me, as I get the impression from some of his posts that he is grumpy. (Don't know if that is true or not!)

 

Almost makes me want to pull the trigger on supporting the project, even though I tend to stay away from any technology on initial release and wait a few months for kinks to get worked out and reviews to roll in. While they have obviously been doing a lot of testing, there are always kinks found when a product is released to market. (EG I was an early adopter on the Smart ATO unit and had the wetside crack on me, which is happening to several people with units >1 yr old now.)

 

Hmmm, I think I will keep an eye on their Kickstarter page (they are 20% of the way there in only 3 days). If they get close near the end...

[DaveFason]

I think the concept is amazing. However I am always scared of Kickstarter stuff. As I know things can take longer than originally projected. TO make it even worst that is around holiday season when they want to release.

 

Again I am all or it. I just hope it pans out how they say it is.

 

-Dave

[tibbsy07]

I find this very interesting. I do have a number of questions for them, though.

 

What is having an updated reading for your parameters every 15 minutes going to actually help you do? Besides temp and salinity, nothing can be changed that dramatically to fix water chemistry.

 

The cost of the unit is very expensive. Multiple hundred dollars for the unit plus the $50/month for the testing disks? That's $600 alone for the disks, and the unit is probably going to run at least $500. That's $1100 at least for your first year of testing. They claim it costs way less than other methods, but I disagree. Where exactly did they get the figure that testing equipment costs $14.672? The images they use look like they took every controller and piece on the market (many of which are redundant) and added them up. I would actually like to see their math on their product costing 1/10 the price of the others - I think that's only if you were to run the equivalent amount of tests, but I again ask if that amount of testing is actually necessary or beneficial?

 

I also have severe hangups about their claims of not needing to calibrate. Even the equipment we use in labs that cost tens of thousands of dollars need to be calibrated regularly. Their idea of calibrating the disks in house in large batches A.) assumes they won't screw up the calibration, B.) everyone who uses their product has the same water supply that won't mess up the calibration once they soak for 24 hours, C.) that shipping mishaps will have no effect on the calibration, and D.) that the actual units will remain in calibration even with moving parts. The reason we calibrate our lab equipment after a period of time, even with the same reagents, is that inevitably they go out of spec. This point alone makes me very hesitant to consider this product (even if I could afford it). I think it is a big mistake to say the disks and units will never need to be calibrated. The article from Reefbuilders says there are little wipers that keep the optics clean and such - those can get messy and clogged or get whacky and maybe not do as great of a cleaning job as they are supposed to. That changes the baseline for the readings and will need to be addressed.

 

I'm probably going to email them about this - I'd consider backing if they can give more details. As it stands, I don't think it's necessary and I think it costs a lot of money for what you actually get.

I'll give you my perspective and you can do with it what you will. I'm an analytical chemist and have been involved in analytical instrument design in startups in the past.

 

I think it's a great idea, but I do have a few concerns. My first questions are about the typical things you always want to know about a measurement instrument: accuracy, reproducibility, sensitivity, limits of detection, etc. They provided data comparing the performance to a high-end pH probe, but what about the other 9 parameters? I'd like to see that data. The next question is about the issue of having these fluorescence sensors exposed to the highly variable aquarium environment for 30 days. I don't have any doubt that they can get good, accurate measurements from them when a new sensor disc is first installed, but I question whether they have addressed all of the possible interferences and longer-term degradation effects that these sensors could undergo over a 30 day period. People use LOTS of different additives and things in their tanks, and I have a hard time believing that these sensors have been tested with all of them. It sounds like the sensor discs are calibrated at the factory, but how long can they maintain that calibration in the real world under the variety of different water chemistry conditions that are likely to be encountered?

 

Another concern is about the temperature sensitivity of the calibration process. This may be something that they have already studied thoroughly, but I didn't see the data on the Kickstarter site. How does the temperature of the water affect the measurement performance parameters (those listed above)? What happens if the unit is installed right under a very intense light and the temperature of the sensor disc is different than that of the water due to thermal effects from the light. Again, this might not be an issue at all, but then again it might.

 

All in all it looks like a very cool product, and seems to have been well designed. I would just like to see more data - but then again, that is my profession.

Beautiful questions!

[HarryPotter]

I find this very interesting. I do have a number of questions for them, though.

 

What is having an updated reading for your parameters every 15 minutes going to actually help you do? Besides temp and salinity, nothing can be changed that dramatically to fix water chemistry.

 

The cost of the unit is very expensive. Multiple hundred dollars for the unit plus the $50/month for the testing disks? That's $600 alone for the disks, and the unit is probably going to run at least $500. That's $1100 at least for your first year of testing. They claim it costs way less than other methods, but I disagree. Where exactly did they get the figure that testing equipment costs $14.672? The images they use look like they took every controller and piece on the market (many of which are redundant) and added them up. I would actually like to see their math on their product costing 1/10 the price of the others - I think that's only if you were to run the equivalent amount of tests, but I again ask if that amount of testing is actually necessary or beneficial?

 

I also have severe hangups about their claims of not needing to calibrate. Even the equipment we use in labs that cost tens of thousands of dollars need to be calibrated regularly. Their idea of calibrating the disks in house in large batches A.) assumes they won't screw up the calibration, B.) everyone who uses their product has the same water supply that won't mess up the calibration once they soak for 24 hours, C.) that shipping mishaps will have no effect on the calibration, and D.) that the actual units will remain in calibration even with moving parts. The reason we calibrate our lab equipment after a period of time, even with the same reagents, is that inevitably they go out of spec. This point alone makes me very hesitant to consider this product (even if I could afford it). I think it is a big mistake to say the disks and units will never need to be calibrated. The article from Reefbuilders says there are little wipers that keep the optics clean and such - those can get messy and clogged or get whacky and maybe not do as great of a cleaning job as they are supposed to. That changes the baseline for the readings and will need to be addressed.

 

I'm probably going to email them about this - I'd consider backing if they can give more details. As it stands, I don't think it's necessary and I think it costs a lot of money for what you actually get.

 

Beautiful questions!

Agreed. On the precision over time aspect and the "save money".

 

I have a salifert Po4, Ca, KH, a cheap thermometer, and a refractometer. Probably $100 a year lol

[tibbsy07]

Agreed. On the precision over time aspect and the "save money".

 

I have a salifert Po4, Ca, KH, a cheap thermometer, and a refractometer. Probably $11 a year lol

And as long as you are paying attention and keeping up with your tank, you have a general idea of what's going on and what needs fixing.

[HarryPotter]

And as long as you are paying attention and keeping up with your tank, you have a general idea of what's going on and what needs fixing.

Agreed.

 

(I meant $100 a year, not $11)

[afyounie]

I think the concept is amazing. However I am always scared of Kickstarter stuff. As I know things can take longer than originally projected. TO make it even worst that is around holiday season when they want to release.

 

Again I am all or it. I just hope it pans out how they say it is.

 

-Dave

 

I've been following the Mindstream Facebook page and they are essentially done with testing. They have been doing a lot of testing the past year or more. The kickstarter is just to gauge interest in the product. They already have plenty of backing from large stakeholders to bring the product to market. Just want to see if its worth it.

 

 

I find this very interesting. I do have a number of questions for them, though.

 

What is having an updated reading for your parameters every 15 minutes going to actually help you do? Besides temp and salinity, nothing can be changed that dramatically to fix water chemistry.

 

The cost of the unit is very expensive. Multiple hundred dollars for the unit plus the $50/month for the testing disks? That's $600 alone for the disks, and the unit is probably going to run at least $500. That's $1100 at least for your first year of testing. They claim it costs way less than other methods, but I disagree. Where exactly did they get the figure that testing equipment costs $14.672? The images they use look like they took every controller and piece on the market (many of which are redundant) and added them up. I would actually like to see their math on their product costing 1/10 the price of the others - I think that's only if you were to run the equivalent amount of tests, but I again ask if that amount of testing is actually necessary or beneficial?

 

I also have severe hangups about their claims of not needing to calibrate. Even the equipment we use in labs that cost tens of thousands of dollars need to be calibrated regularly. Their idea of calibrating the disks in house in large batches A.) assumes they won't screw up the calibration, B.) everyone who uses their product has the same water supply that won't mess up the calibration once they soak for 24 hours, C.) that shipping mishaps will have no effect on the calibration, and D.) that the actual units will remain in calibration even with moving parts. The reason we calibrate our lab equipment after a period of time, even with the same reagents, is that inevitably they go out of spec. This point alone makes me very hesitant to consider this product (even if I could afford it). I think it is a big mistake to say the disks and units will never need to be calibrated. The article from Reefbuilders says there are little wipers that keep the optics clean and such - those can get messy and clogged or get whacky and maybe not do as great of a cleaning job as they are supposed to. That changes the baseline for the readings and will need to be addressed.

 

I'm probably going to email them about this - I'd consider backing if they can give more details. As it stands, I don't think it's necessary and I think it costs a lot of money for what you actually get.

Beautiful questions!

 

While testing every 15 minutes results is a huge period, you can still design a successful control system off of this. Especially because the time for changes in alk, calcium, and Mg to take effect would be longer than 15 minutes. This would lead to much greater automation.

 

As for the price, its 500 for the kickstarter, but once they come to market, it will be 700. I do agree its a bit expensive, hence the reason I will wait for the real user testing before I purchase one. They have done a lot of testing, even in peoples aquariums for multiple months. I think they might have a good product, but again, you really never know until it hits the mass market.

 

For the calibration, its all based on optics and I think the reason they might say it doesn't need to be calibrated is due to the large tolerance in measurements. This is speculation because I haven't had time to look into it. But if the tolerance is large, then they have most likely found that all of the things that would cause a loss of calibration are wouldn't have enough of an effect due to the large tolerance. Again, all speculation due to the lack of information on my part. I need to read more.

 

I definitely don't think this system is for us Nano-Reefers. I think it's meant for large systems where changes to water quality take longer to make an affect on the total system. In our tanks, 15 minutes might be too long of a time due to the small water amount. I'm thinking 100+ gal is the optimal size for this sensor.

[tibbsy07]

 

I've been following the Mindstream Facebook page and they are essentially done with testing. They have been doing a lot of testing the past year or more. The kickstarter is just to gauge interest in the product. They already have plenty of backing from large stakeholders to bring the product to market. Just want to see if its worth it.

 

 

 

While testing every 15 minutes results is a huge period, you can still design a successful control system off of this. Especially because the time for changes in alk, calcium, and Mg to take effect would be longer than 15 minutes. This would lead to much greater automation.

 

As for the price, its 500 for the kickstarter, but once they come to market, it will be 700. I do agree its a bit expensive, hence the reason I will wait for the real user testing before I purchase one. They have done a lot of testing, even in peoples aquariums for multiple months. I think they might have a good product, but again, you really never know until it hits the mass market.

 

For the calibration, its all based on optics and I think the reason they might say it doesn't need to be calibrated is due to the large tolerance in measurements. This is speculation because I haven't had time to look into it. But if the tolerance is large, then they have most likely found that all of the things that would cause a loss of calibration are wouldn't have enough of an effect due to the large tolerance. Again, all speculation due to the lack of information on my part. I need to read more.

 

I definitely don't think this system is for us Nano-Reefers. I think it's meant for large systems where changes to water quality take longer to make an affect on the total system. In our tanks, 15 minutes might be too long of a time due to the small water amount. I'm thinking 100+ gal is the optimal size for this sensor.

I can definitely see designing a control set up based on this, but it still then requires an automated system completely separate. You'd also likely need to have this integrated into your normal routine for a few weeks before developing your control system as you need to know what parameters fluctuate and when.

 

I agree that this has a lot of potential, but I think there are still some hurdles that will likely need to be addressed in the long term. There may be tolerance factored in - I'm not an optics expert by any stretch - but the lab equipment that I refer to is optics-based and still requires calibration from time to time. I suspect that having to calibrate will actually become a part of routine maintenance on these.

 

The system is definitely going to be for larger systems, but then how sensitive are these tests? Will 1 unit be useful for a 500g tank? Would you need 2 at that point? They seem to be running tests in a lab setting, which is wonderful - but they need more testing with actual established tanks before they can really make the claims they are making. Baseline experiments in a well-controlled lab setting are absolute, and I think they have these established. But our systems are dynamic and no single tank is alike. I want to see their results over a period of a few months in many established tanks before I commit. I'd be willing to beta if I didn't have to donate a lot of $$$ to do so.

[metrokat]

Add nitrate and phosphate, and I'm in.

This. I'm not interested in my ammonia level and my Apex tells me the temperature in my tank already.

Besides I don't suppose the temperature sensor needs replacing.

 

BTW the sensor replacements aren't $30 a month, They are $30 to $50 EACH, about $500 to replace the whole kit of 10. Per month. I may have read that incorrectly but numbers were swimming so there.

 

Initial costs aside, people bitch about T5 replacement costs, this one tops that.

I'm pretty sure they've handed out beta models to the key people in our hobby for testing. Like Jake Adams