Jump to content
Premium Aquatics Aquarium Supplies

Zero/Undetectable Phosphates


callmesaul8889

Recommended Posts

callmesaul8889

I figured I should update this thread with the new info I found out recently. Chloramine might not have been the whole story...

 

Someone on RC mentioned that chloramine is usually chosen as a detergent because it breaks down much slower than chlorine. He suggested that the theory of chloramine breaking down and leaving ammonia in only 12 hours is farfetched and suggested that I start looking for other sources of ammonia. The first thing mentioned was a cat litter box, and we DO have a cat. The litter box used to be somewhat close to a central air return vent, so it seemed like a possibility.

 

I started testing the water in a closed container vs being left in the open. I found that if the container is closed, no ammonia gets into the water after 12 hours. The water that is left exposed to air, however, always develops ~1-2ppm ammonia over 12 hours.

 

After confirming the airborne nature of the ammonia, I moved the cat litter box to a new location that's very far from any central air vents, cleaned the cat box completely, replaced my air filters, and aired out my house. After all of this, I started placing open containers of water around the house in different locations and testing them for ammonia. What I found was that the water near the air return vents accumulated the most ammonia and the water near the litter box accumulated the least.

 

I am now researching HVAC cleaning and trying to determine how to find the source of this airborne ammonia. If anyone with experience in anything like this sees this post, I would very much appreciate some help on how to proceed. I'm planning an 80g SPS build soon, and if I can't find the source of this ammonia problem, I'm not even going to start the build.

Link to comment
  • Replies 102
  • Created
  • Last Reply
callmesaul8889

Here are photos from my most recent test. From left to right we have downstairs return vent, near the cat litter box, and near the upstairs return vent where the cat litter box used to be. I'm not sure if the source of the ammonia is in the vents, or if the vents just have more airflow nearby which allows more ammonia to accumulate in the same time frame.

 

This test was done 1 day after airing out the entire house. After having the windows open for a full workday, ammonia was 0ppm.

 

* THESE TESTS ARE OF MY RO/DI WATER PLACED IN DIFFERENT AREAS AROUND MY HOUSE *

post-46713-0-22877700-1452707988_thumb.jpg

Link to comment

I would suspect that ammonia would be most concentrated near an air vent. Similar to nutrients being concentrated when going through our tank overflows.

 

As for the source, feeding, household cleaners and animal cages/litter boxes mostly come to mind....which you've looked into. However, many reefers also have cats/litterboxes at home, apparently without ill effects.

 

Cleaning detritus is very good, but there is also the possibility of overdoing it and creating a tank that is 'too clean' as typically evidenced by pale coral and little to no growth.

 

Apparently, your tank has the ability to nitrify, but is lacking in denitrification. To promote denitrification one needs to provide a carbon source in sufficient quantity.

 

To keep phosphate low, the excess detritus/bacteria needs to be removed regularly. This can be accomplished via skimming and/or regular WCs and substrate vacuuming.

 

Also keep in mind that denitrifyiers tend to reproduce more slowly than nitrifiers (general understanding, different types of bacteria can be involved in both processes). After your super thorough cleaning, you may just have to wait a month or two until the denitrifiers reproduce sufficiently to handle the excess nitrate.

 

Each tank is different and so makes this hobby challenging. But for reference, weekly detritus removal (gravel cleaning, rear chambers cleaning), algae removal from the back wall and 10% WC is sufficient to maintain <1 ppm NO3 and undetectable PO4. Corals are very healthy at this level due to constant input of organic nutrients, including organic phosphate, which our hobby test kits can't measure.

 

Finding the correct balance for a particular tank, and then maintaining it, is challenging and very satisfying when it all 'comes together' :)

Link to comment
callmesaul8889

I would suspect that ammonia would be most concentrated near an air vent. Similar to nutrients being concentrated when going through out tank overflows.

 

As for the source, feeding, household cleaners and animal cages/litter boxes mostly come to mind....which you've looked into. However, many reefers also have cats/litterboxes at home, apparently without ill effects.

 

Cleaning detritus is very good, but there is also the possibility of overdoing it and creating a tank that is 'too clean' as typically evidenced by pale coral and little to no growth.

 

Apparently, your tank has the ability to nitrify, but is lacking in denitrification. To promote denitrification one needs to provide a carbon source in sufficient quantity.

 

To keep phosphate low, the excess detritus/bacteria needs to be removed regularly. This can be accomplished via skimming and/or regular WCs and substrate vacuuming.

 

Also keep in mind that denitrifyiers tend to reproduce more slowly than nitrifiers (general understanding, different types of bacteria can be involved in both processes). After your super thorough cleaning, you may just have to wait a month or two until the denitrifiers reproduce sufficiently to handle the excess nitrate.

 

Each tank is different and so makes this hobby challenging. But for reference, weekly detritus removal (gravel cleaning, rear chambers cleaning), algae removal from the back wall and 10% WC is sufficient to maintain <1 ppm NO3 and undetectable PO4. Corals are very healthy at this level due to constant input of organic nutrients, including organic phosphate, which our hobby test kits can't measure.

 

Finding the correct balance for a particular tank, and then maintaining it, is challenging and very satisfying when it all 'comes together' :)

 

At this point the tank has been torn down. Everything I'm working on right now is trying to figure out why ammonia develops in my open water containers. My reef was a rimless without a lid, so I'm confident that it was absorbing about 1ppm of ammonia every 12hrs like my current RO/DI water tests are showing. The tank had plenty of live rock and had been established for over 2 years, so the ammonia never showed on a test kit. It was getting converted to nitrate too fast for me to get an ammonia reading. This aligns with my problems of rising nitrate even when I wasn't adding food to the tank.

 

As far as your recommendations on tank maintenance, I'm much more confident now that my maintenance schedule was absolutely fine. I would blast my rock with a turkey baster, siphon out the junk, siphon any settled detritus, change filter floss, empty skimmer, and do a 20% water change weekly. That strategy lead me to a 10ppm increase in nitrate every 3 or 4 days regardless of what and when I was feeding. Phosphorus tests were always low. I never had any algae buildup. I suspect that's because the phosphate was coming from the relatively little food I was feeding and the nitrate was coming from this airborne ammonia problem.

Link to comment

You might consider dosing/target feeding live phytoplankton. It's beneficial for a number of reasons including stabilizing ph.

The drawback for dosing Phyto seems to be the that it frequently leads to nuisance algae. But in a tank like yours that might be just what the doctor ordered.

 

I was dosing it in my own tanks for a while just to support micro-life in the tanks and noticed considerable color improvement and polyp extension in my SPS (No they don't eat it...but it is essentially food for micro-fauna that then produce waste they do it). Since I stopped dosing Phyto I think my own tanks have begun to get that "too clean" problem. Some SPS are getting that washed out look and polyp extension isn't so great.

 

 

You could also just stock some more fish and maybe throw a bag of Matrix or something in the system to help out with the bio-load.

 

Also, FWIW, I've never "removed detritus" from any of my tanks in the traditional sense. I just try to keep the gunk as well suspended as I can with high flow and manually blowing off the rocks and I use lots of sand-dwelling snails to keep things well turned-over.

 

The only thing that ever gets removed from my system is skimmer collection and whatever is on the filter floss and 10% per MONTH water change.

 

Good Luck. There are worse problems to have than a tank that is too clean :P

Link to comment

what do online searches show about the accuracy of freshwater api test kits being used on marine tanks for low level assessment

 

I was keen on the litter box part you mentioned and then I saw those tests, we are basing a lot on api, curious to know how accurate that has been for the masses. it may turn out to be just fine, but in comparing your actual testing kit to others that needs to be verified, to know current levels. this detail helps because of the changes being considered to your tank regarding low level ammonia, among a system so able and hungry for ammonia it can digest 5+ ppm a day, every day.

 

 

for you to have consistent ammonia wont just show in coral issues, your fish will be panting and darting. Your litterbox testing was really neat id love to see it via salifert marine tests

Link to comment
callmesaul8889

You might consider dosing/target feeding live phytoplankton. It's beneficial for a number of reasons including stabilizing ph.

The drawback for dosing Phyto seems to be the that it frequently leads to nuisance algae. But in a tank like yours that might be just what the doctor ordered.

 

I was dosing it in my own tanks for a while just to support micro-life in the tanks and noticed considerable color improvement and polyp extension in my SPS (No they don't eat it...but it is essentially food for micro-fauna that then produce waste they do it). Since I stopped dosing Phyto I think my own tanks have begun to get that "too clean" problem. Some SPS are getting that washed out look and polyp extension isn't so great.

 

 

You could also just stock some more fish and maybe throw a bag of Matrix or something in the system to help out with the bio-load.

 

Also, FWIW, I've never "removed detritus" from any of my tanks in the traditional sense. I just try to keep the gunk as well suspended as I can with high flow and manually blowing off the rocks and I use lots of sand-dwelling snails to keep things well turned-over.

 

The only thing that ever gets removed from my system is skimmer collection and whatever is on the filter floss and 10% per MONTH water change.

 

Good Luck. There are worse problems to have than a tank that is too clean :P

 

I was dosing live phytoplankton. Trust me, I spent 1 year and A LOT of money trying every different strategy you could think of. I tried: vodka dosing, vinegar dosing, NOPOX, 6 hour skimmer cycle, no skimmer, light feeding, heavy feeding, phytoplankton dosing, flake food instead of frozen, no water changes, heavier bioload, next to no bioload, etc. No matter what I did, NO3 would climb to 40-50ppm over the course of a few weeks which would require a huge water change to bring it back down. Rinse and repeat.

what do online searches show about the accuracy of freshwater api test kits being used on marine tanks for low level assessment

 

I was keen on the litter box part you mentioned and then I saw those tests, we are basing a lot on api, curious to know how accurate that has been for the masses.

 

This isn't a "marine" or "freshwater" ammonia test, it has instructions for both on the box. And I'm not posting test results of saltwater, I currently don't have a tank. I'm testing RO/DI water that I'm making at home.

 

Also, the ammonia tests are consistent. If I test RO/DI water right after I make it (before it's exposed to air in my house) it's always 0ppm. I check the water as it comes out every single time I make water. After the water is exposed to the air in my house for more than 3 or 4 hours, I get an ammonia reading. If I put two cups in the same room, one with a lid and one without a lid, the one without a lid has ammonia and the one that was sealed still reads 0ppm.

Link to comment

 

I was dosing live phytoplankton. Trust me, I spent 1 year and A LOT of money trying every different strategy you could think of. I tried: vodka dosing, vinegar dosing, NOPOX, 6 hour skimmer cycle, no skimmer, light feeding, heavy feeding, phytoplankton dosing, flake food instead of frozen, no water changes, heavier bioload, next to no bioload, etc. No matter what I did, NO3 would climb to 40-50ppm over the course of a few weeks which would require a huge water change to bring it back down. Rinse and repeat.

 

 

Well, I'm confused, and it's probably my own fault. I thought this thread was about getting your phosphates UP, or water too clean. I only read the first page before replying and that's my bad. Somehow it's changed to keeping NO3 down. That's a horse of a different color.

Link to comment
callmesaul8889

 

Well, I'm confused, and it's probably my own fault. I thought this thread was about getting your phosphates UP, or water too clean. I only read the first page before replying and that's my bad. Somehow it's changed to keeping NO3 down. That's a horse of a different color.

 

Yeah, sorry about that. It started with me having 0 phosphate because I was always trying to keep NO3 levels down. I realized (with help from this thread) that I was underfeeding. Once I started feeding more, PO4 was in an acceptable range, but NO3 would rise faster than I could do water changes to keep it down. I now think the source of all the extra NO3 was airborne ammonia in my house that would get nitrified once it got into the tank water.

 

I only found out that I have free floating ammonia after I tore down the tank and sold it. :( Oh well, new build incoming once I figure out this stupid ammonia problem.

Link to comment

In that case, I wonder if a quality air purifier in the room with the tank would be the most simple solution. Something like an Oreck table top air purifier can be had for $100 - $150 or so.

41ei%2BZ0-PNL._SY300_.jpg

 

That's the type I use in my home, but a quick google for "Air purifier ammonia" gave me some results that are made specifically for that purpose.

GL

Link to comment
callmesaul8889

In that case, I wonder if a quality air purifier in the room with the tank would be the most simple solution. Something like an Oreck table top air purifier can be had for $100 - $150 or so.

41ei%2BZ0-PNL._SY300_.jpg

 

That's the type I use in my home, but a quick google for "Air purifier ammonia" gave me some results that are made specifically for that purpose.

GL

 

You know I've been brainstorming all weekend on how to completely clean our HVAC system and never once thought of something like this. I'll pick one up and see if that makes a difference. Thanks!

Link to comment

purely for framing purposes, I had asked what do online searches show about that reliability vs other kits and its opposite, I feel this can't be written off although I fully expect it to. the raw amount of posted problems in online search returns don't mean you don't have the best api ammonia test kit ever made, a good one. But its not even been questioned so far, and has been with others.

 

ammonia chasing can be a challenge, but you are using kits to discern details implicated in thousands of false reading searches. I feel that not even considering the notion, or showing comparative tests with stronger searches, slants the outcome vs measuring real events.

 

online searches show these issues w using api to make low level assessments in tank:

 

variances in test tube amounts vs drops, some tubes holding more or less and drops being the same per instructions

 

being adulterated by other tank additives (search prime)

 

several more, comprising about 100 pages of search returns on first go.

Link to comment
callmesaul8889

purely for framing purposes, I had asked what do online searches show about that reliability vs other kits and its opposite, I feel this can't be written off although I fully expect it to. the raw amount of posted problems in online search returns don't mean you don't have the best api ammonia test kit ever made, a good one. But its not even been questioned so far, and has been with others.

 

ammonia chasing can be a challenge, but you are using kits to discern details implicated in thousands of false reading searches. I feel that not even considering the notion, or showing comparative tests with stronger searches, slants the outcome vs measuring real events.

 

online searches show these issues w using api to make low level assessments in tank:

 

variances in test tube amounts vs drops, some tubes holding more or less and drops being the same per instructions

 

being adulterated by other tank additives (search prime)

 

 

I understand and I definitely have heard of API's test kit reputation. I will get a second ammonia test kit and double verify everything. I've done over 15 tests total now over the course of the weekend and this week. If there were inconsistencies, I'm confident I would have noticed them. I'm not really using the test to determine the exact ppm that's getting into the water, I'm just confirming that some amount of ammonia gets into the water after being exposed to the air. I expect fully yellow 0ppm results whenever I do an ammonia test. Every time I test freshly made RO/DI water, it's as yellow as it can be. Every time the water is exposed to air, it's green. Every time I store the water so it's not exposed to air, it stays yellow. That's about as consistent as it gets, IMO. Regardless, I'll double test with another kit over the next week.

Link to comment

the cat littler box has real potential I cant wait to see, this is rare but I heard of this about 8 yrs ago here in another post. if you can get us some data I would link it back to cycling threads galore for sure, where we hunt down strange appearances of ammonia like reef tank apparitions

 

id believe you are seeing some as well, and am so curious to know if any other originations are in question beyond the topoff water and the cat box

Link to comment

 

At this point the tank has been torn down. Everything I'm working on right now is trying to figure out why ammonia develops in my open water containers. My reef was a rimless without a lid, so I'm confident that it was absorbing about 1ppm of ammonia every 12hrs like my current RO/DI water tests are showing. The tank had plenty of live rock and had been established for over 2 years, so the ammonia never showed on a test kit. It was getting converted to nitrate too fast for me to get an ammonia reading. This aligns with my problems of rising nitrate even when I wasn't adding food to the tank.

 

As far as your recommendations on tank maintenance, I'm much more confident now that my maintenance schedule was absolutely fine. I would blast my rock with a turkey baster, siphon out the junk, siphon any settled detritus, change filter floss, empty skimmer, and do a 20% water change weekly. That strategy lead me to a 10ppm increase in nitrate every 3 or 4 days regardless of what and when I was feeding. Phosphorus tests were always low. I never had any algae buildup. I suspect that's because the phosphate was coming from the relatively little food I was feeding and the nitrate was coming from this airborne ammonia problem.

 

"This aligns with my problems of rising nitrate even when I wasn't adding food to the tank."

 

Any 'typical' reef tank setup (live rock/live sand') has plenty of substrate for nitrifying/denitrifying bacteria. The issue here is not enough food (carbon source) for the denitrifying bacteria to convert the nitrate to nitrogen gas. I've been through exactly the same thing as have many reefers (rising nitrate with minimal food input).

 

" suspect that's because the phosphate was coming from the relatively little food I was feeding and the nitrate was coming from this airborne ammonia problem. "

 

Phophate is always added with food, but if one sees rising phosphate levels when food input is minimal it tends to indicate a deficient bacterial population. If you truly have ammonia in the air (from personal experience I won't use API), it should still be processed by the tank's bacteria as they can/willl adjust to various levels of ammonia. Ideally, we want a robust, heavily reproducing bacterial community that we can then either use a skimmer to remove the excess bacteria from the water column and/or vacuum detritus and the resident bacteria therein. By removing bacteria we are removing phosphate since all living organisms have phosphate in their tissues. The bacteria then reproduce quickly and sequester phosphate back into their bodies...and the phosphate balancing cycle continues.

Link to comment

These last two posts are great insight.

 

mb7 is harmless to use or not use, fair consideration there. the physical issues listed so far are more general than exacting as details progress, and still waiting to be verified as ammonia from external sources is highly, highly rare in reefing and being able to indicate it even rarer. since you show some amounts I couldn't write it all off, but still am keen to press further as not all is in line with stated amounts.

 

in support of nano's comment above, how many ppm are we seeing cycled tanks progress nowadays, up to 5 or 7 ppm in a given day? if not that, its pretty high and close.

 

To have any aquarium system maintain a .25, or .5, verified accurately, means we are leaking in .5 higher than these -massive- amounts people only get via direct ammonia dosing, and the tank can barely keep up. how aerosolized ammonia gets in at that level is beyond me if that's occurring.

 

This is suspect not only because of api, but because anything is living in the tank.

Link to comment

 

You know I've been brainstorming all weekend on how to completely clean our HVAC system and never once thought of something like this. I'll pick one up and see if that makes a difference. Thanks!

 

Cool. Glad some of my rambling may have helped.

 

Another thing to consider is the actual filter for the HVAC system itself.

 

Consider this: If you are getting high readings near vents but lower readings everywhere else, then the source can't really be inside your living space, but it could be the total living space. Even if your filter is horribly overdue for replacement, they come in many different grades ranging from about $1 to $20. And those filter very differently.

 

Compared to the air filter unit, they are pretty cheap. If you have been only buying cheapo filters, I would also pick up a more robust filter for your HVAC and see if that helps.

Link to comment
callmesaul8889

To have any aquarium system maintain a .25, or .5, verified accurately, means we are leaking in .5 higher than these -massive- amounts people only get via direct ammonia dosing, and the tank can barely keep up. how aerosolized ammonia gets in at that level is beyond me if that's occurring.

 

This is suspect not only because of api, but because anything is living in the tank.

 

 

My tank did NOT have .25 or .5ppm of ammonia. The tank water always read 0ppm of ammonia. The tank that I refer to earlier in this thread has been torn down and sold. At this point, I'm only trying to figure out why I'm getting ammonia readings on pure RO/DI water.

 

At the very least, there is some 'food for thought' when/if it is restarted.

 

Absolutely! Even though this past year has been hell, I've learned a lot. I'm starting an 80g SPS shallow reef as soon as I figure out this stupid ammonia problem.

Link to comment

 

 

My tank did NOT have .25 or .5ppm of ammonia. The tank water always read 0ppm of ammonia. The tank that I refer to earlier in this thread has been torn down and sold. At this point, I'm only trying to figure out why I'm getting ammonia readings on pure RO/DI water.

 

Absolutely! Even though this past year has been hell, I've learned a lot. I'm starting an 80g SPS shallow reef as soon as I figure out this stupid ammonia problem.

 

A quick Google produced this infomrative pamphlet:

 

https://www.dhs.wisconsin.gov/publications/p0/p00810.pdf

 

There are a few sources listed that i hadn't considered (living near a farm, etc.). 1 ppm seems to be detectable for the average person.

 

Good luck!

Link to comment
callmesaul8889

 

A quick Google produced this infomrative pamphlet:

 

https://www.dhs.wisconsin.gov/publications/p0/p00810.pdf

 

There are a few sources listed that i hadn't considered (living near a farm, etc.). 1 ppm seems to be detectable for the average person.

 

Good luck!

 

That's a very helpful link, thank you. I do believe there's a waste treatment plant nearby. I have a hunch that this problem is limited to inside my house, but I can test a few more cups of water outside to see if it's collecting any ammonia outdoors. From an initial search, I haven't found any ways of testing free floating ammonia. I will continue with RO/DI absorption tests.

 

yep in the presence of no biodigestion things make much more sense lol I didn't see we were dealing w a cup of fw! ha

 

 

NP! This thread is starting to get long and covering a lot of different topics. Should I create a new thread dedicated to this ammonia problem and link to it?

Link to comment

no its ok in my opinion I like it in one place, these are all valid variables anyone might encounter. I just didn't read back far enough you did write that part above. nice diligence~!

Link to comment
  • 10 months later...

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

  • Recommended Discussions


×
×
  • Create New...