Zero/Undetectable Phosphates

[evan38109]

This is totally off the wall, but: where is your heater in relation to the chaeto?

 

The one time I found myself killing chaeto, I found I had a massive temperature difference between tank and sump. I had added an extra pump recirculating water from the end of the sump to the beginning. The result was a really hot sump (and a really cool tank.) The chaeto took a serious disliking to the high temperature and I probably lost half of it.

 

I doubt this is the whole story, but...

[callmesaul8889]

No heater. The tanks natural temp is 78°.

[callmesaul8889]

I just wanted to update this post. I have been trying to get the tank params back to normal levels for the past 2 weeks. No more NO3PO4X or any carbon dosing. I've been feeding minimally and the nitrate level is steadily on the rise.

 

I ordered a Hanna ULR phosphorus meter to hopefully get a better reading on the phosphate/phosphorus level in my tank. I haven't used NeoPhos or fed heavy in 2 weeks and the Hanna checker is reading a phosphorus level of 0. That's a completely blank phosphorus reading. Someone has suggested that the white slime that I'm seeing from dosing the NO3PO4X might be consuming the phosphorus at a heavy rate. I'm going to try to manually remove the slime and clean the inner walls of the overflows this weekend during a water change. Hopefully that's enough to get rid of it.

 

[Nano sapiens]

Your plan to drastically reduce the undesireable, actively growing organisms while continuing to feed the tank should be helpful.

 

Since you are trying to stabilize the system, I'd suggest not adding any products to the tank at this point and monitor the health and parameters for a few weeks to see if the situation improves. Skimming would be optional, too, as it will also remove organic material (which includes phosphate).

[callmesaul8889]

Well I wanted to update this thread with my current status. After my last post, I did a HUGE cleaning spree where I cleaned the skimmer, back chambers, pumps, powerheads, and I siphoned every last bit of detritus that was on the bottom of the tank. With that was a large 80% water change. The following few weeks proved better for the phosphate level, but nitrate is still a problem.

 

Now I'm battling nitrate that rises 10ppm every 3 days. To counteract the problem, I lowered my bioload... twice. I've taken the hawkfish back to my LFS and I set up my 18g hospital tank specifically for all of my LPS, clownfish, and dottyback.

 

Right now, I have 1 lyretail anthias and 2 shrimp plus a small cleanup crew, and I feed every 2 to 3 days. I flat out cannot keep up on water changes like this; I missed last week's water change (waiting for my salt mix to ship) and lost my clam today. From October 19 to yesterday, NO3 went from 5ppm to 35ppm.

 

Again, no algae, can't grow chaeto, phosphate is at .02ppm, nitrate on the rise... I'm ready to break this tank down and take a break from the hobby

[callmesaul8889]

Here's my nitrate graph.

 

• 80% water change occurred on Sept 4
• 50% on Sept 21
• 80% on Sept 28
• 80% on Oct 19

I've blown through so much salt trying to keep the params in check. I hear about people feeding daily and doing 10% water changes and having 2ppm nitrate levels and it makes my mind spin. Also, I've been feeding MAYBE a quarter of a cube of PE mysis rinsed in RO/DI water. Sometimes I don't even use all of the food depending on how much the fish are eating.

[HarryPotter]

Here's my nitrate graph.

 

• 80% water change occurred on Sept 4
• 50% on Sept 21
• 80% on Sept 28
• 80% on Oct 19

I've blown through so much salt trying to keep the params in check. I hear about people feeding daily and doing 10% water changes and having 2ppm nitrate levels and it makes my mind spin. Also, I've been feeding MAYBE a quarter of a cube of PE mysis rinsed in RO/DI water. Sometimes I don't even use all of the food depending on how much the fish are eating.

 

How about some pictures of the tank?

[callmesaul8889]

Two shots from a little over a week ago. I've lost the clam on the right just today and the acro that's laying sideways (something knocked it over) has been STNing ever since. I tried to frag it up, but the water params are so bad it didn't really help

 

I did just get my salt mix shipment yesterday, so I'm making up ~30 gallons of water for whatever comes next.

[Mariaface]

I think from Kat and Mark's balancing games I've learned this:

 

There's a necessary ratio between nitrate and phosphate for your denitrifying bacteria. You do want to feed more or dose phosphates, but you also want to make sure the correct denitrifying bacteria are there. Mix up Microbacter7 and coral snow (equal parts), let it sit a couple of days to really catch hold, then dose a couple/few ml at a time. Careful with skimming this bacteria out too quickly, too.

 

It sounds like you have a really efficient bacteria strain in there, and they don't get fed quite enough to keep nitrates down (but they do an excellent job otherwise).

 

The lack of phosphate/nutrients could tell you why alk doesn't go down and corals aren't growing very quickly, and why there's hardly any algae growing. Honestly, I think it's a pretty good slate to start from (as opposed to the opposite of too much, and algae messes everywhere).

[callmesaul8889]

I think from Kat and Mark's balancing games I've learned this:

 

There's a necessary ratio between nitrate and phosphate for your denitrifying bacteria. You do want to feed more or dose phosphates, but you also want to make sure the correct denitrifying bacteria are there. Mix up Microbacter7 and coral snow (equal parts), let it sit a couple of days to really catch hold, then dose a couple/few ml at a time. Careful with skimming this bacteria out too quickly, too.

 

It sounds like you have a really efficient bacteria strain in there, and they don't get fed quite enough to keep nitrates down (but they do an excellent job otherwise).

 

The lack of phosphate/nutrients could tell you why alk doesn't go down and corals aren't growing very quickly, and why there's hardly any algae growing. Honestly, I think it's a pretty good slate to start from (as opposed to the opposite of too much, and algae messes everywhere).

 

I believe this theory, although if this is the case I might break the tank down anyway. This tank has had nothing but uncommon problems, and I'd like to get back to a typical reef tank instead of a science experiment. I can't even find any decent information on people dosing phosphorus, and I've wasted a lot of money already up to this point. I don't think I want to keep experimenting, I just want a tank that follows normal patterns.

[metrokat]

Id the tank with the sand also having problems?

[callmesaul8889]

Id the tank with the sand also having problems?

 

Not yet. That tank has been running for over a month and a little over 2 weeks ago I moved the fish and LPS down into it from the main tank. I'm running the smaller tank with no skimmer, sand, and I'm using Reef Crystals instead of ESV salt. So far, NO3 has went from 2ppm to 10ppm over 2 weeks, but I attribute that to the fact that I added a bioload.

[callmesaul8889]

I just had someone suggest trying a biopellet reactor. Anyone have any information on that? I'm worried that it will do the same as NOPOX: bring the phosphate down to 0.00 and do nothing for the nitrate at all.

[Mariaface]

I just had someone suggest trying a biopellet reactor. Anyone have any information on that? I'm worried that it will do the same as NOPOX: bring the phosphate down to 0.00 and do nothing for the nitrate at all.

 

The point of the biopellet reactor is to cultivate the correct bacteria. So you would be feeding more, dosing phosphate/nitrate if one of them goes down to 0, and maintaining the balance that way.

[brandon429]

Is it accurate based on pics to say that each lps and alt corals are fine, but the sps directly under the most photo intensive areas in the tank are bleaching?

 

bleaching sps in reefs notwithstanding rare diseases is this cycle imo

 

too bright light given high alk and low heterotrophic feeding options

 

add a temp on the higher range at times, amplify the bleaching. Reverse these, wait 3 mos it w fix

 

roti pods

cyclopeeze

roids

phyto

 

hq feeding equals hq sticks but not just feeding in general, if it isn't appealing to the corals it accumulates as broken down waste and algae food. heterotrophy implies they want a choice not just endpoint after all amino acids are broken down into measurable N or P

 

you could retire your no3 testing and po4 testing permanently on this tank and have sps strong in three months going solely off the full tank shot details and lps pics. The focus here is wrong, n and p are not the focus to that ends for this tank for sure.

 

I don't have to feed anything but Cyclopeeze once a month and any SPS will plate all over my reef to the point it blocks out the light. this may seem non diverse feeding, but the key is a 6 inch deep sand bed producing gametes and larvae, heterotrophic live feed pre breakdown, and the Cyclopeeze is merely input for that production zone

 

plenty of retail feeds exist to diversify a tank with no deep sand bed

[callmesaul8889]

Is it accurate based on pics to say that each lps and alt corals are fine, but the sps directly under the most photo intensive areas in the tank are bleaching?

 

bleaching sps in reefs notwithstanding rare diseases is this cycle imo

 

too bright light given high alk and low heterotrophic feeding options

 

add a temp on the higher range at times, amplify the bleaching. Reverse these, wait 3 mos it w fix

 

roti pods

cyclopeeze

roids

phyto

 

hq feeding equals hq sticks but not just feeding in general, if it isn't appealing to the corals it accumulates as broken down waste and algae food. heterotrophy implies they want a choice not just endpoint after all amino acids are broken down into measurable N or P

 

you could retire your no3 testing and po4 testing permanently on this tank and have sps strong in three months going solely off the full tank shot details and lps pics. The focus here is wrong, n and p are not the focus to that ends for this tank for sure.

 

I don't have to feed anything but Cyclopeeze once a month and any SPS will plate all over my reef to the point it blocks out the light. this may seem non diverse feeding, but the key is a 6 inch deep sand bed producing gametes and larvae, heterotrophic live feed pre breakdown, and the Cyclopeeze is merely input for that production zone

 

plenty of retail feeds exist to diversify a tank with no deep sand bed

 

 

No, your initial assumption isn't exactly true. The SPS that's getting the absolute most amount of light actually has retained most of its color and looks better than some of the SPS in at the edges of the tank (mystic monitpora looks terrible). Last month after reading through this thread, I made it a point to keep the NO3 level under 10ppm regardless of effort, and I found that the coral responded amazingly well. This month, I tried to lower the bioload and return to a more normal water change cycle (20% - 35%) and as NO3 rose above 15ppm, everything responded horribly.

 

I'm really intrigued by your answer, though. Is a combination of live phytoplankton, LRS reef frenzy, PE mysis, and copepod max not a diverse enough food source? I don't have a sand bed and now that I got the LPS out of the tank, I cranked the MP10 and Jaebo up in hopes that will keep detritus from building up under the rocks so much.

[brandon429]

the pictures simply made it look like those were bright spots over your SPS... if not applicable, then that's one less factor to consider. if they are fixed and putting back on mass and base plating over the edges then all is well, the goal was to prevent a start over. can you post an update picture of the improved SPS versus the pictures from early pages to check the direction they've taken?

 

for the items I listed that are associated with SPS bleaching if you have taken care of the feed portion then I'm still looking to the other two, or to see if this tank is introducing a third or fourth variable we don't usually see.

[callmesaul8889]

the pictures simply made it look like those were bright spots over your SPS... if not applicable, then that's one less factor to consider. if they are fixed and putting back on mass and base plating over the edges then all is well, the goal was to prevent a start over. can you post an update picture of the improved SPS versus the pictures from early pages to check the direction they've taken?

 

for the items I listed that are associated with SPS bleaching if you have taken care of the feed portion then I'm still looking to the other two, or to see if this tank is introducing a third or fourth variable we don't usually see.

 

The other items being intense light, high alk, and warm temps? My light is a Hydra 52 mounted 24" over the tank on 23% on all channels. I had the channels much more skewed in the past with blues being in the mid 50% and whites being under 15%. I moved to this over the course of a month to go back to a fuller spectrum in hopes to get back to basics.

 

Alk usually doesn't swing. My water mixes at 9.3dkh and I dose Nano Code B once per week to keep it above 9.0.

 

Temps sit right around 80F. Max is 81F and min is 79F. It's sitting at 80.5F right now.

 

I noticed my PO4 level was down around .006ppm yesterday and my dragon's breath macro algae still doesn't look so great, so I dosed some phosphorus to bring the PO4 back to .021ppm. I'm thinking raising it even more might be good for the algae. Would that make sense? If I bring up the PO4 and get some growth in the dragon's breath, I'd expect to see lower NO3 levels.

[callmesaul8889]

So after a few months of trying my hardest to keep this tank's params in check, I think I've finally found the cause to all of my headaches: chloramine.

 

My RO/DI unit does not have catalytic carbon for chloramine removal, and from what I now understand about chloramine it lead me to do some extensive testing. At first, I tested TDS and ammonia straight from the RO/DI unit (after running for ~10 mins) which showed 0TDS and 0ppm ammonia, this is what I've always seen whenever I test my RO water.

 

On a hunch, I decided to let the RO/DI water sit for 12 hours and test again. On my second test, I got 1ppm ammonia and 1TDS! This is consistent with why I was seeing poor coral response to water changes, and elevated nitrate levels throughout the week even with minimal to no feeding. Every water change I was doing had some ammonia in it... and it wasn't being detected by any of my tests because I was testing within 20 minutes of making the RO/DI water. After 12+ hours, the ammonia is very, very apparent.

[JayPagi]

What a great read, I hope this is the solution to your problem because a lot of reefers could learn from this thread.

 

BTW what app were you using to track your parameters? There a screenshot above of a nitrate graph.

[callmesaul8889]

What a great read, I hope this is the solution to your problem because a lot of reefers could learn from this thread.

 

BTW what app were you using to track your parameters? There a screenshot above of a nitrate graph.

 

I made sure to come back and update this thread for that reason. I never once thought that ammonia would be making it past my RO/DI unit, and I definitely didn't think it would only manifest after some time had past.

 

The app seen in that picture is Aquarimate. Honestly, it's a decent solution, but there's a lot I would change if I could team up with the devs. It has a lot of potential that it's not leveraging, but overall it's a solid app.

[smeagol108]

So after a few months of trying my hardest to keep this tank's params in check, I think I've finally found the cause to all of my headaches: chloramine.

 

My RO/DI unit does not have catalytic carbon for chloramine removal, and from what I now understand about chloramine it lead me to do some extensive testing. At first, I tested TDS and ammonia straight from the RO/DI unit (after running for ~10 mins) which showed 0TDS and 0ppm ammonia, this is what I've always seen whenever I test my RO water.

 

On a hunch, I decided to let the RO/DI water sit for 12 hours and test again. On my second test, I got 1ppm ammonia and 1TDS! This is consistent with why I was seeing poor coral response to water changes, and elevated nitrate levels throughout the week even with minimal to no feeding. Every water change I was doing had some ammonia in it... and it wasn't being detected by any of my tests because I was testing within 20 minutes of making the RO/DI water. After 12+ hours, the ammonia is very, very apparent.

don't know enough about chloramine, but I guess you are saying cause you RO had no carbon block filter, chlorine/chloramine was not removed, which than after sitting converts to ammonia or something?

just want to understand.

[callmesaul8889]

don't know enough about chloramine, but I guess you are saying cause you RO had no carbon block filter, chlorine/chloramine was not removed, which than after sitting converts to ammonia or something?

just want to understand.

 

My 4 stage RO/DI filter DID have a carbon block (5 micron) which was not rated to remove chloramines (which requires 1 micron + catalytic carbon). Chloramine is chlorine + ammonia, so my assumption (I'm no chemical engineer, so feel free to correct me) is that the chloramine was making it past the carbon block and somehow being stripped of the chlorine, only leaving ammonia in the filtered water. I still don't understand why the ammonia test would only read 1ppm after the water had been left to settle. That could be PH related, but I'm not totally sure.

 

I am adding an extra stage to my RO/DI unit so it will be as follows: sediment filter, 2x catalytic carbon blocks (rated for chloramine removal), RO membrane, and finally 2x DI stages. I will test my water after getting this all set up and ensure that no ammonia is making it through either 10 minutes after making water or 24 hours after the water settles.

[smeagol108]

 

My 4 stage RO/DI filter DID have a carbon block (5 micron) which was not rated to remove chloramines (which requires 1 micron + catalytic carbon). Chloramine is chlorine + ammonia, so my assumption (I'm no chemical engineer, so feel free to correct me) is that the chloramine was making it past the carbon block and somehow being stripped of the chlorine, only leaving ammonia in the filtered water. I still don't understand why the ammonia test would only read 1ppm after the water had been left to settle. That could be PH related, but I'm not totally sure.

 

I am adding an extra stage to my RO/DI unit so it will be as follows: sediment filter, 2x catalytic carbon blocks (rated for chloramine removal), RO membrane, and finally 2x DI stages. I will test my water after getting this all set up and ensure that no ammonia is making it through either 10 minutes after making water or 24 hours after the water settles.

if that's the chemical makeup of chloramine, than most likely the chlorine just evaporate/dissipates into the after after sitting. leaving just ammonia. again I am guessing too, but I know if you don't have any dechlorinator (like prime) around, it is suggested to let the tap water sit for a day for the chlorine to stabilize/evaporate/disappear.... (not sure what correct word here is).. this is interesting cause I have never paid any ayttention to the carbon blocks I buy... hmm.

[callmesaul8889]

if that's the chemical makeup of chloramine, than most likely the chlorine just evaporate/dissipates into the after after sitting. leaving just ammonia. again I am guessing too, but I know if you don't have any dechlorinator (like prime) around, it is suggested to let the tap water sit for a day for the chlorine to stabilize/evaporate/disappear.... (not sure what correct word here is).. this is interesting cause I have never paid any ayttention to the carbon blocks I buy... hmm.

 

I think what you're saying is more likely: the chloramine makes it all the way through the system and as the chlorine evaporates, pure ammonia is left.

 

I haven't used Prime in a long time since I thought my RO/DI unit was taking care of everything. Someone at my LFS mentioned Prime when I was in last and that's what lead me to investigating my RO/DI unit in the first place.

 

Also, if your local water treatment center's detergent of preference is chlorine, you'd have no reason to worry about which carbon block you're using. My water treatment center uses chloramine, so that's why I'm having this problem. If you have chloramine in your tap water, use 0.5 or 1 micron catalytic carbon blocks and it's recommended to use 2 stages of catalytic carbon in a row so any chloramine that makes it past the first stage is easily taken care of by the second stage.