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Zero/Undetectable Phosphates


callmesaul8889

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callmesaul8889

Your tank uses Alk, either the coraline or the corals or both. Imagine Alk falling .5KH a day and then after a week you do a water change with salt that is 14 KH.

 

Maybe it's due to the out of balance params, but my tank barely uses alk. Before this debacle, I measured a drop of 0.1dKH over 7 days with no dosing of kalk/2 part or anything. My salt mixes at 9.3dKH and I'm trying to balance my tank right at 9.3 as well.

 

 

So if you decide you want SPS the first goal is to keep KH stable and the salt immediately becomes an issue. IMO KH sould be kept in a range of 8 to 9, not 14.

 

Keeping the alk stable is my primary goal at the moment. Mine never got as high as 14, but I was worried when I saw 11.8dKH. I don't think I'm going to have many issues with my salt. If anything, I'm more curious why my tank isn't feeding off of the alk that's currently in the tank...

 

 

As far as phoshpates go, I don't trust the test kit. Do the double resolution test and double check the expiration date on the box. :)

 

I don't know what to trust anymore. I'll do a double dosage test tonight. The test definitely isn't expired. I'm considering picking up a Hanna phosphate and alk checker.

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Sounds like you're on the right track. Are you not using Red Sea Coral Pro? I might have confused this with another thread, sorry about that.

 

As far as test kits, the Hanna ULR Phosphorus meter is decent but a pain to test, the LR meter has been inaccurate for me. I would avoid anything Hanna except for the ULR meter. Salifert is reliable, or has been for me. The Alk kit is easy to use and comes with a calibration fluid to check the test result.

 

Alk will drop unless you are adding it so you need to solve that issue as well. Maybe a testing error? :)

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callmesaul8889

Sounds like you're on the right track. Are you not using Red Sea Coral Pro? I might have confused this with another thread, sorry about that.

 

As far as test kits, the Hanna ULR Phosphorus meter is decent but a pain to test, the LR meter has been inaccurate for me. I would avoid anything Hanna except for the ULR meter. Salifert is reliable, or has been for me. The Alk kit is easy to use and comes with a calibration fluid to check the test result.

 

Alk will drop unless you are adding it so you need to solve that issue as well. Maybe a testing error? :)

 

I am not using Red Sea salt. I'm using Instant Ocean that's premixed by my LFS. Last week, I made 20 gallons of water using ESV salt mix to the same specs as my LFS's water, so I have roughly 35g of premixed water on hand that's all the same parameter wise.

 

I have all Salifert test kits. If the Hanna ULR isn't as accurate as the Salifert tests, I wont even bother.

 

Alk never drops, at least not a noticeable amount. I see my calcium drop regularly, but not alk. Any ideas why that would be? I have coraline growth, but it's very slow.

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Nano sapiens

I am a proponent of a properly maintained substrate as it can promote biological stability. Typically, if you don't use a sand bed you'd want a good amount of live rock (or other appropriate media) to compensate.

 

Having a '0' reading for PO4 is not always an issue (I too, have the same '0' with Salifert kits and 2x day fish/coral feeding, but nicely colored up corals), but it *can* be if the total phosphate (organic and incorganic) is really low. Pale/dying corals and no algae...that's a good sign that it is too low.

 

High nitrate indicates an incomplete nitrogen cycle. Denitrifying bacteria are either insufficient or are not functioning efficiently. With 2x/day feeding your phosphate is being sequestered by something in the tank.

 

Can you provide a pic of the tank and any support equipment?

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callmesaul8889

I am a proponent of a properly maintained substrate as it can promote biological stability. Typically, if you don't use a sand bed you'd want a good amount of live rock (or other appropriate media) to compensate.

 

I hate sand. I would consider adding substrate as a worst case scenario, but there have been plenty of bare bottom SPS tanks and I'd like try to figure this out without having to add sand. I've seen that 'mud' type substrate that's sold for sumps, would that be beneficial in an all-in-one in the back chambers?

 

High nitrate indicates an incomplete nitrogen cycle. Denitrifying bacteria are either insufficient or are not functioning efficiently. With 2x/day feeding your phosphate is being sequestered by something in the tank.

 

This is my biggest worry. My LFS was mentioning that I might want to explore using a nitrifying bacteria supplement to essentially 'reset' the dominant bacteria strains in my tank. They were recommending Dr. Tim's Re-Fresh. That was when I decided to start this thread and why I chose the water chemistry forum.

 

 

Can you provide a pic of the tank and any support equipment?

 

http://imgur.com/a/9CQBl

 

Those pics are from last night. My equipment:

1 MP10

1 AquaMaxx HOB-1

1 AI Hydra52

1 bag of activated carbon (small amount)

1 ATO with ~.5ml accuracy

 

I only use filter floss to grab large particles of food and change my filter once a week(ish).

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Nano sapiens

 

I hate sand. I would consider adding substrate as a worst case scenario, but there have been plenty of bare bottom SPS tanks and I'd like try to figure this out without having to add sand. I've seen that 'mud' type substrate that's sold for sumps, would that be beneficial in an all-in-one in the back chambers?

 

 

This is my biggest worry. My LFS was mentioning that I might want to explore using a nitrifying bacteria supplement to essentially 'reset' the dominant bacteria strains in my tank. They were recommending Dr. Tim's Re-Fresh. That was when I decided to start this thread and why I chose the water chemistry forum.

 

 

 

http://imgur.com/a/9CQBl

 

Those pics are from last night. My equipment:

1 MP10

1 AquaMaxx HOB-1

1 AI Hydra52

1 bag of activated carbon (small amount)

1 ATO with ~.5ml accuracy

 

I only use filter floss to grab large particles of food and change my filter once a week(ish).

 

Yes, true, there are successful bare-bottom setups that do manage nitrate. But there are also many who have tried and had difficulties.

 

The thing with substrates (sand, mud, etc.) is that they do need some maintenance. I have no hands-on experience with the 'miracle mud' system, but it has been successful in many tanks. If it were my system, I'd make it simple and try a 1" layer of aragonite sand (from an established tank, if possible) in an easily accessable back chamber and thoroughly vacuum this layer at least once a week to removed detritus. Shallow substrates can be very effective at processing ammonia/ammonium, nitrite and nitrate, but they need to be kept relatively clean to allow water flow to get to the bacteria. Of note is that 1" is enough as both aerobic and anaeobic bacteria live in close proximity in such a sand bed, so one doesn't need a deep one to achieve denitrification.

 

There are likely thousands of strains of bacteria already in your system. Conditions need to be correct to promote the ones that we want. I have never added such a bio-supplement in over 30 years of keeping reef tanks, but it certainly can't hurt if you do.

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I am not using Red Sea salt. I'm using Instant Ocean that's premixed by my LFS. Last week, I made 20 gallons of water using ESV salt mix to the same specs as my LFS's water, so I have roughly 35g of premixed water on hand that's all the same parameter wise.

 

I have all Salifert test kits. If the Hanna ULR isn't as accurate as the Salifert tests, I wont even bother.

 

Alk never drops, at least not a noticeable amount. I see my calcium drop regularly, but not alk. Any ideas why that would be? I have coraline growth, but it's very slow.

 

Ok, sorry about that, I must have had a stroke or something. You have more experience than I do (based on forum join date anyway so the only thing I can recommend is to mix your own, but you've already done that and tried to match it. :D

 

I do like the Hanna ULR (reads in PPB x 3 / 1000 for PO4) but I am guilty of chasing numbers too much.

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Ok, sorry about that, I must have had a stroke or something. You have more experience than I do (based on forum join date anyway so the only think I can recommend is to mix your own, but you've already done that and tried to match it. :D

 

I do like the Hanna ULR (reads in PPB x 3 / 1000 for PO4) but I am guilty of chasing numbers too much.

Please don't go on having strokes. I learn too much from you!

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callmesaul8889

If it were my system, I'd make it simple and try a 1" layer of aragonite sand (from an established tank, if possible) in an easily accessable back chamber and thoroughly vacuum this layer at least once a week to removed detritus.

 

Ok, that's an idea. Why would I have detritus in the back chambers, though? My filter material prevents almost any detritus from collecting in the back. Should I be leaving the detritus in the main display to rot? I'm getting conflicting information: too clean to have readable phosphate vs too much feeding causing high nitrate levels.

 

 

Conditions need to be correct to promote the ones that we want.

 

So what conditions am I providing that aren't promoting the right bacteria? This tank is over 2 years old and has never been quite right. My params are always within reasonable boundaries and I can't even grow green star polyps. They survive, but never really start growing.

 

Ok, sorry about that, I must have had a stroke or something. You have more experience than I do (based on forum join date anyway so the only thing I can recommend is to mix your own, but you've already done that and tried to match it. :D

 

I do like the Hanna ULR (reads in PPB x 3 / 1000 for PO4) but I am guilty of chasing numbers too much.

 

No problem! I've been on here since 2008, but I've yet to have a successful SPS tank. I still have very, very much to learn.

 

I never used to chase numbers until my coral health began to decline. I started by noticing higher than normal nitrate, then chaeto would die, then started testing heavier on phosphate/calcium/mag. Now I'm getting the right parameters, but one look at my tank and you'll realize something's not right. It blows my mind that I can't even grow algae.

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Nano sapiens

I see, you use filter floss. The more often you clean the floss, the better. I don't as it just traps food particles, larvae, etc. that I want to circulate around the system to feed the filter-feeding organisms. And no, excessive detritus in a system is not good as it will degrade water quality and impede bacterial efficiency. Having a sand bed in the back chamber that is vacuumed regularly can actually assist with denitrification. But, if you just let it sit back there without touching it for months, it can increase your nitrate level. And even with floss, it will become clogged with particles over time if not maintained.

 

Each of us can only speak to our own systems and each one is unique. In my LR & LS only system, I feed 2x/day and have untestable phosphate and <1 ppm nitrate. I have overfed my system in the past due to a auto-pellet feeder mishap and PO4 tends to show up when my nitrates reached ~6-7 ppm. You have untestable PO4 and NO3 of 10 ppm or so. Nitrate at this level is not a problem IMO, but your PO4 appears to be really low (pale corals). You can try taking a pinch of phosphate rich flake food, rub it between your fingers well to create a 'slurry' to broadcast feed into the tank daily. This will raise your system's total PO4 level, but you may notice increasing NO3 levels if you don't have enough denitrification going on in the tank.

 

Ultimately, it takes time and sometimes lots of trial-and-error to find the correct balance. It is more difficult IMO without a sand bed, but obviously possible.

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callmesaul8889

You have untestable PO4 and NO3 of 10 ppm or so.

 

Are you basing that on this photo?: http://i.imgur.com/1ntkBH1.jpgTo me it looks more like it's between the 30-50ppm range.

 

 

You can try taking a pinch of phosphate rich flake food, rub it between your fingers well to create a 'slurry' to broadcast feed into the tank daily. This will raise your system's total PO4 level, but you may notice increasing NO3 levels if you don't have enough denitrification going on in the tank.

 

Let's say I did this and starting broadcast feeding with flake food, why would that raise my phosphate levels when dosing NeoPhos isn't even making an impact? I would assume that dosing concentrated phosphorus would increase the phosphate level faster than any food would.

 

I wonder if I should stop using the filter floss and let the food completely circulate the system. I have 2 overflows on either side of the tank, so I could test that out on one side. Thanks for all of the advice, by the way.

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Nano sapiens

 

Are you basing that on this photo?: http://i.imgur.com/1ntkBH1.jpgTo me it looks more like it's between the 30-50ppm range.

 

 

 

Let's say I did this and starting broadcast feeding with flake food, why would that raise my phosphate levels when dosing NeoPhos isn't even making an impact? I would assume that dosing concentrated phosphorus would increase the phosphate level faster than any food would.

 

I wonder if I should stop using the filter floss and let the food completely circulate the system. I have 2 overflows on either side of the tank, so I could test that out on one side. Thanks for all of the advice, by the way.

 

 

Your 3rd post indicates Nitrate at 10-15ppm, so that's what i saw. Your pic here does show much higher, so yes, it's becoming a concern IMO.

 

The dry food slurry angle is what works for me and it also supplies a source of carbon that the denitrifyng bacteria require. Your NeoPhos isn't working so well, apparently, so why no try something diffeerent either in addition or as a stand-alone method (your choice).

 

Speaking of adding carbon to nourish the denitrifying bacteria to keep nitrates in check, you can try any of the following (or any combination).

 

Feed more

Add more fish

Carbon dose

 

This will only work if you have enough surface area for a sufficient number of denitrifying bacteria to colonize, of course. Keep in mind that adding a carbon source can be confusing due to the old saying 'Reduce food input to reduce nitrate', but consider that many very sparcely populated/fed systems have rising nitrate over time and it becomes clear that nitrate is rising because denitrification is not working as efficiently as it should. Hence, carbon addition in some form or another. On the other hand, this doesn't mean that adding a whole jar of food is going to help as this would overwhelm any systems' bacteria, no matter how efficient they are. Slow, measured additions with regular parameter checking is what is required.

 

A reef tank can be run well and be very stable with nothing more than LR, LS, water changes (or proper trace element addtions), water movement, appropriate temperature, proper lighting and some food input. Filter floss, skimmers, GAC, GFO, etc. are all options that can be used to address specific problems, should they arise. I don't have anything against them, per se, just don't need/use them.

 

I've been at this a while, but I'll be first to tell you that no one has the perfect recipe for any given system. I've been tuning my nano for 7 years now, and only in the last 2-3 years have I gotten a reasonable handle on which processes and procedures truly work...and which don't. Trying to expalin 'why' is often difficult when a living, highly complex biological system is involved as it is not always possible to accurately describe the inner workings in detail due to our limited understanding. My advice would be to take your time, read as much as you can pertaining to the phosphate and nitrogen cycle, experiment, and especially apply what has worked well for others with similar setups to your own and careful observe the results over time.

 

Sorry, got a bit wordy, but it's a complex topic :)

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callmesaul8889

 

 

Your 3rd post indicates Nitrate at 10-15ppm, so that's what i saw. Your pic here does show much higher, so yes, it's becoming a concern IMO.

 

The dry food slurry angle is what works for me and it also supplies a source of carbon that the denitrifyng bacteria require. Your NeoPhos isn't working so well, apparently, so why no try something diffeerent either in addition or as a stand-alone method (your choice).

 

Speaking of adding carbon to nourish the denitrifying bacteria to keep nitrates in check, you can try any of the following (or any combination).

 

Feed more

Add more fish

Carbon dose

 

This will only work if you have enough surface area for a sufficient number of denitrifying bacteria to colonize, of course. Keep in mind that adding a carbon source can be confusing due to the old saying 'Reduce food input to reduce nitrate', but consider that many very sparcely populated/fed systems have rising nitrate over time and it becomes clear that nitrate is rising because denitrification is not working as efficiently as it should. Hence, carbon addition in some form or another. On the other hand, this doesn't mean that adding a whole jar of food is going to help as this would overwhelm any systems' bacteria, no matter how efficient they are. Slow, measured additions with regular parameter checking is what is required.

 

A reef tank can be run well and be very stable with nothing more than LR, LS, water changes (or proper trace element addtions), water movement, appropriate temperature, proper lighting and some food input. Filter floss, skimmers, GAC, GFO, etc. are all options that can be used to address specific problems, should they arise. I don't have anything against them, per se, just don't need/use them.

 

I've been at this a while, but I'll be first to tell you that no one has the perfect recipe for any given system. I've been tuning my nano for 7 years now, and only in the last 2-3 years have I gotten a reasonable handle on which processes and procedures truly work...and which don't. Trying to expalin 'why' is often difficult when a living, highly complex biological system is involved as it is not always possible to accurately describe the inner workings in detail due to our limited understanding. My advice would be to take your time, read as much as you can pertaining to the phosphate and nitrogen cycle, experiment, and especially apply what has worked well for others with similar set ups to your own and careful observe the results over time.

 

Sorry, got a bit wordy, but it's a complex topic :)

 

Awesome, thanks for all the information! You've been super helpful. At one point I was using NO3PO4X per my LFS recommendation, but slimy bacteria ended up taking over the back chambers of my tank right as my nitrate level balanced out at 20ppm. I cut back and stopped dosing for fear of a bacteria bloom, especially since it wasn't affecting the nitrate level anymore. I wouldn't be opposed to starting carbon dosing again as long as I figure out what caused it to stop working a month in. It kinda seemed like it started fueling the slimy white bacteria more than the denitrifying bacteria. I was dosing per the instructions, too. Even when I cut the dose down 25% the slime still took over.

 

I have noticed that heavy feeding improves my coral's colors and polyp extension, but my nitrate levels always get our of hand once I start feeding heavier. My nitrate levels right now are very high, but the response I'm getting from the SPS is implying that they're not affected by it (yet). I'm going to continue heavy feeding, and keep up with daily 2 cup water changes, it seems to be working for me right now.

Speaking of higher than normal nitrate levels, my LFS has a BEAUTIFUL SPS dominated display tank and they regularly have nitrate levels in the 50ppm range. I've never seen prettier SPS in person. Could it be that the coral I'm buying has been aquacultured so much that it isn't affected by the high nitrate levels? They've claimed that at one point they had 90ppm+ with no ill effects on the system. Their recent recommendation was to stop worrying so much about keeping a low nitrate level and feed heavy while monitoring the coral's response. I'm not sure how I feel about letting my nitrate creep up so high, but it seems it's not an issue for them.

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Nano sapiens

Corals are quite adaptable when given enough time. Higher than natural nitrate levels have been shown to actually increase coral growth, but also tend to produce more brittle skeltons. Alkalinity can also be affected by high nitrate levels, so the recommendation is just to watch it more closely to make sure it remains stable.

 

I have heard of some cases of carbon dosing and bacteria blooms. Check out Randy Homes-Farley's articles on the subject.

 

Most important thing is to observe the system and organism health. In your case, concentrating on raising the PO4 level to 'barely detectable' (Salifert) would likely be beneficial in producing more healthy and colorful corals. Nitrate is much less of an issue at this point as long as it doesn't shoot up into the stratosphere. If it does, a light carbon dosing regime might be adviseable.

 

Good luck!

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  • 4 weeks later...
callmesaul8889

So after a few weeks, I've made little to no progress. Any time I add NoPox to my tank, white slime starts and my nitrate level does not decline.

 

My nitrates hit 50ppm last Thursday (nothing looked terrible, but it was starting to worry me) so I decided to stop messing around and try to force the system into the proper params. I stocked up on 45+ gallons of premixed water and started with 50% water changes. I did a 50% water change on Friday, Saturday, and Monday. That brought my nitrate down to 7.5ppm and phosphate to 0.00ppm (completely clear on the Salifert test).

 

24 hours later, without feeding anything, the nitrate level was back to 15+ppm, so I did a smaller 35ish% water change which put it back right under 10ppm. I skipped a few days of testing and yesterday got ANOTHER result of 15+ppm. My goal for the week was to keep nitrate under 10ppm with light feeding, so I did a 5th 50% water change last night. Immediately after each water change, I've been dosing NeoPhos in attempts to raise my phosphate to a detectable level.

 

Now the fun, today's test results:

15+ppm nitrate

0.00ppm phosphate

 

I don't get it. No matter how much food/phosphorus I add to the tank, P04 stays at 0. No matter how many water changes I do, N03 never stays under 10ppm, even without feeding. I have no dead animals in my tank, I've been replacing my filter floss daily and I'm wet skimming like crazy.

 

Edit:

 

I also forgot to add that chaeto dies within days of being put in my tank. I've tried it 4 times and every time it starts to dissolve and die within 48 hours. I tossed what I had in a bucket with some old water change water with a massively overpowered light to see what happens. The old water has nitrate level of 50ppm and phosphate of .03ppm (which is the only time I've ever had a readable phosphate level: when my nitrate was above 40ppm).

 

Essentially, two of the main recommendations for keeping nitrate in check do not work for me. NoPox = slime and cheato = dead chaeto. Should I just scrap this rock and start over? This is really painful.

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callmesaul8889

Are you still skimming?

 

Yes, wet skimming pretty heavily. I cleaned all of the white slime out of my skimmer last week sometime and it's been on overdrive ever since.

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We can say something is sucking up phosphates this white slime is it In the display and what I got from recent posts that it started when you used the po4xpo3x? Or the nopox? I'm not familiar but are those products like introducing a different bacteria that utilizes phosphate and nitrate?

This slime seems like it's using your phosphate. It might sound conflicting but feeding more isn't working how about feeding less do good 5 plus gallon changes a week change floss as needed and Maybe part time skim that is if this white slime isn't all ready making it's way into the display

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callmesaul8889

We can say something is sucking up phosphates this white slime is it In the display and what I got from recent posts that it started when you used the po4xpo3x? Or the nopox? I'm not familiar but are those products like introducing a different bacteria that utilizes phosphate and nitrate?

This slime seems like it's using your phosphate. It might sound conflicting but feeding more isn't working how about feeding less do good 5 plus gallon changes a week change floss as needed and Maybe part time skim that is if this white slime isn't all ready making it's way into the display

 

I've had this phosphate issue since before dosing N03P04X. N03P04X should be similar to carbon dosing in that it fuels the bacteria in the system that processes nitrate. If anything, it should be helping, not hurting.

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It would be good to try and introduce other competing organisims, This could be out there in theory, if what ever organism is using up mostly phosphate it's the dominate organism of your tank and being bare bottom is most likely why , I was gonna say maybe spark a diatom bloom that would be low risk to most corals but it just hit me would it out compete the other if you simply added silicate to the water? Sorry if nothing seems useful :/

Seems like a tank set in its way.

your euphylia are huge and look good they aren't affected?

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callmesaul8889

It would be good to try and introduce other competing organisims, This could be out there in theory, if what ever organism is using up mostly phosphate it's the dominate organism of your tank and being bare bottom is most likely why , I was gonna say maybe spark a diatom bloom that would be low risk to most corals but it just hit me would it out compete the other if you simply added silicate to the water? Sorry if nothing seems useful :/

 

I think you hit the nail on the head with having a dominant bacteria that consumes phosphate. I forgot to mention, but I've tried Dr Tim's Eco Balance and Waste Away at one point and didn't really see any change. I dosed them once each 5 days apart.

 

 

Seems like a tank set in its way.

 

 

It's pretty damn stubborn.

your euphylia are huge and look good they aren't affected?

 

They don't seem to be. The only coral I see that are majorly affected are SPS and zoas, but I think the zoas are a result of some hungry asterina starfish.

 

Here's a pic from just now: http://i.imgur.com/je55b51.jpg

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I was thinking about your kh ,ever try border line 7 kh ? Assuming your other numbers are good Maybe alittle higher if it just effecting sps. I'm just thinking about how to cope with the ulns you got going on, I would cut heavy feeding to keep nitrates down the best you can. It's boggling as we'll your not seeing a usage of alkalinity so something's out of wack as we know. As of most recent what have your calc mag kh ph been?

Also what type of sps are you trying to keep I see what looked like a stylo that's got good polyp ext how many what's is the hydra? Just also wondering maybe some sps you chose might need higher light? Just curoious

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callmesaul8889

I was thinking about your kh ,ever try border line 7 kh ? Assuming your other numbers are good Maybe alittle higher if it just effecting sps. I'm just thinking about how to cope with the ulns you got going on, I would cut heavy feeding to keep nitrates down the best you can. It's boggling as we'll your not seeing a usage of alkalinity so something's out of wack as we know. As of most recent what have your calc mag kh ph been?

Also what type of sps are you trying to keep I see what looked like a stylo that's got good polyp ext how many what's is the hydra? Just also wondering maybe some sps you chose might need higher light? Just curoious

 

I've never tried to get it that low. How do you safely lower alkalinity anyway? I am definitely cutting the feeding, and I plan on continuing the water changes to keep the nitrate at a reasonable level. I don't really see the alk or calc fluctuate much other than when I was trying kalkwasser in my top off water. Most recently calc was 415, 9.3dkh, ph 7.9. I haven't checked my mag in a while, but it came in at 1200 tonight, so I'm going to start to raise that tomorrow. I just did twice the water volumes worth of water changes, so I didn't expect both the mag and calc to be so low.

 

I have a couple acros, and stylos which do 'ok' less some paler colors and slow to minimal growth. None of my montipora are doing well at all. I had to give my monti cap to a friend because it paled out to nothing. The light is a Hyda 52. It's pretty powerful and I'm generally unsure of my power levels. Right now I'm copying another user who had a succesful SPS tank using the same light. I keep whites at 28%, blues at 58%, and other channels around 15% with the overall intensity turned down 30%.

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