Internal filter stay or go?

[Murphs_Reef]

Evening,

So I now have 2 x jebao wp10s, not working with a sump or hob or any kind. I have a95 gal tank. At the moment I have a small internal filter (think it turns 4 x water volume per hour so not a big filter) which I have used to host carbon and poly pads, if also have never less that 10 ppm nitrates (after water change) as every thing is stable (levels in terms of predictability) should I leave it and just clean it out / change polys when I do my weekly water change, or just take it out? I often wonder if the pads even though being swapped weekly are my very own nitrate factory?

 

I have around 12 pounds of live rock (ok under the rule of thumb) and a deep sand bed. Only have 2 clowns, 5 hermits and a bunch of turbos... A few mushrooms, xenia (which I believe CAN help in nitrate take up) some clove polyps and 3 heads of duncans.

[Murphs_Reef]

Hmmm

[Nano sapiens]

If you are changing pads weekly, then you shouldn't have a nitrate factory.

 

If everything is going well and is stable, then I think the majority of people would recommend leaving the system 'as is'. If you were to remove the carbon/pads, you'd likely see an increase in nitrate/phosphate if your hubandry practices were to remain the same.

[Murphs_Reef]

That's my dilemma.. I have hi nitrates, don't feed much (3 times a week) .. It's stable, but a high stable.... It's going well, but well might nit be great... I don't want to change for the worst but removing might be a better change and reduce nitrates? Not sure...

[Nano sapiens]

Nitrates are a baffling thing to many since one would assume that with all the rock and sand surface area there should enough bacteria to handle a small amount of food and organism waste (especially in a larger tank).

 

The bacteria that denitrify (turn nitrates into mostly nitrogen gas that vents into the air) require sufficient carbon in order to do their job. They also require that adequate nutrient flow gets to them, so having a sand bed or live rock full of detritus is a hinderance to the process. Without getting overly technnical, the bacteria that both nitrify and denitrify live in very close proximity to each other and are what is termed 'coupled'. They typically exist mostly within the first 1/2" of a typical aquarium substrate which is why even shallow 1" substrates can be very effective. The old notion of denitrifying bacteria only existing in deep oxygen free zones is just not valid.

 

You can try a simple experiment and feed the tank a bit more (and/or get an extra fish or two) to increase carbon availability, while at the same time removing some detritus from the system whenever you do a water change (just don't try removing a whole lot of detritus all at once or you can unbalance the system with nasty consequences). Keep track of nitrate over a few months and see if it stabilizes at a lower level.

[Partially Submerged]

In 20 years of on and off aquarium keeping, I have never heard of denitrifying bacteria playing a major role in the aquarium. I am sure they do to some extent, but if you do weekly water changes and feed sparsely, you should not have a nitrate problem. I wouldn't dream of rinsing out my filter media weekly. I clean them every 2-3 months in SW and every 6 months or so in FW (in heavily planted FW tanks, nitrate is of course even less of a problem). If your tank is healthy, I wouldn't obsess about nitrate readings that are a bit on the high side.

[Murphs_Reef]

Thank you for your support guys! Much appreciated

[Nano sapiens]

In 20 years of on and off aquarium keeping, I have never heard of denitrifying bacteria playing a major role in the aquarium. I am sure they do to some extent, but if you do weekly water changes and feed sparsely, you should not have a nitrate problem. I wouldn't dream of rinsing out my filter media weekly. I clean them every 2-3 months in SW and every 6 months or so in FW (in heavily planted FW tanks, nitrate is of course even less of a problem). If your tank is healthy, I wouldn't obsess about nitrate readings that are a bit on the high side.

 

I've been keeping reef tanks for 30+ and before that many saltwater and freshwater tanks.. The nitrogen cycle (nitrification/denitrification) has always been of great importance and is one of the first things taught to beginning aquarists. The accumulation of excessive nitrate can be detrimental, especially to coral, since it can upset the delicate balance of zooxanthellae within the coral, contribute to algae blooms, cause brittle coral skeletons, deplete alkalinity and effect pH.

 

Based on the sheer number of threads, elevated nitrate is an issue for many, many reef aquarists. Even in a typical reef system that receives less than optimal food input, nitrate levels tend to rise for many. Dilution via water changes is often attempted, but is often only temporarily successful. I had the same issue in my 12g early on in it's 7 year life with sparce feeding and not touching the sand bed, which was an experiment to see if the popular practice at the time had merit. After watching NO3 rise to 30 ppm, I reduced nitrate via regular detritus removal using sand bed vacuuming and live rock basting while gradually increasing feeding to optimal levels. This allowed me to feed my corals and fish well, while still maintaining low nitrate levels (currently less than 1 ppm NO3) without the use of any other filtration methods other than live rock and sand.

 

Many reef hobbyists prefer to maintain nitrate levels at low levels (the number fluctuates with current whims, but 'less than 5 (nitrate-nitrogen)' seems popular. I agree that 10ppm is typically not a problem, but is at the upper end of what I'd personally like to see in a reef tank.

[Murphs_Reef]

So going round the loop to my q, is it worth them removing the filter that houses carbon and pads or just keep it clean? Ideally it would come out and I would do it properly with a sump but space etc us at a premium so...

[Partially Submerged]

 

I've been keeping reef tanks for 30+ and before that many saltwater and freshwater tanks.. The nitrogen cycle (nitrification/denitrification) has always been of great importance and is one of the first things taught to beginning aquarists. The accumulation of excessive nitrate can be detrimental, especially to coral, since it can upset the delicate balance of zooxanthellae within the coral, contribute to algae blooms, cause brittle coral skeletons, deplete alkalinity and effect pH.

 

Based on the sheer number of threads, elevated nitrate is an issue for many, many reef aquarists. Even in a typical reef system that receives less than optimal food input, nitrate levels tend to rise for many. Dilution via water changes is often attempted, but is often only temporarily successful. I had the same issue in my 12g early on in it's 7 year life with sparce feeding and not touching the sand bed, which was an experiment to see if the popular practice at the time had merit. After watching NO3 rise to 30 ppm, I reduced nitrate via regular detritus removal using sand bed vacuuming and live rock basting while gradually increasing feeding to optimal levels. This allowed me to feed my corals and fish well, while still maintaining low nitrate levels (currently less than 1 ppm NO3) without the use of any other filtration methods other than live rock and sand.

 

Many reef hobbyists prefer to maintain nitrate levels at low levels (the number fluctuates with current whims, but 'less than 5 (nitrate-nitrogen)' seems popular. I agree that 10ppm is typically not a problem, but is at the upper end of what I'd personally like to see in a reef tank.

 

Yes, of course, but I would guess the nitrogen cycle ends with nitrate for most of us. After that comes export. As I said, I don't think denitrification is not a valid consideration, but especially in nano tanks, where large water changes are neither impractical nor a huge waste of water, I don't think nitrate accumulation should be a huge concern. I see a lot of people freaking out because they get high nitrate readings, but I wonder if they would notice any real-life effects if they didn't know those readings. That's not to say that high nitrates don't have a negative effect on our tanks. I've had problems associated with high nitrate before, but those effects aren't exactly subtle. If my tank has built up a lot of nitrate, something is going very wrong, and chances are nitrate isn't the only problem you are having in that situation.

[Nano sapiens]

 

Yes, of course, but I would guess the nitrogen cycle ends with nitrate for most of us. After that comes export. As I said, I don't think denitrification is not a valid consideration, but especially in nano tanks, where large water changes are neither impractical nor a huge waste of water, I don't think nitrate accumulation should be a huge concern. I see a lot of people freaking out because they get high nitrate readings, but I wonder if they would notice any real-life effects if they didn't know those readings. That's not to say that high nitrates don't have a negative effect on our tanks. I've had problems associated with high nitrate before, but those effects aren't exactly subtle. If my tank has built up a lot of nitrate, something is going very wrong, and chances are nitrate isn't the only problem you are having in that situation.

 

I would agree that the denitrification part of the cycle is not functioning as well as it could for many, ergo the high nitrate problem that many battle with. The denitrification process can be vastly improved in many reef aquaria via an understanding of the requirements of the bacteria involved in the process.

 

Yes, typically along with nitrate accumulation one sees an increase in other products such as phosphate, too. Bacteria play a large role in phosphate cycling and that process is also not well understood or addressed by many as it is quite complex Hence the substantial selection of phosphate control products.

[Nano sapiens]

So going round the loop to my q, is it worth them removing the filter that houses carbon and pads or just keep it clean? Ideally it would come out and I would do it properly with a sump but space etc us at a premium so...

 

The short answer is that no one knows what exactly would happen in your tank since each tank is different. If you keep all other parameters and functions of the tank the same, then you would likely see a rise in nitrates if you removed the filter. You can monitor the system to see how it goes and if nitrate rise too high, take steps to counter the increase.