upgrade to natural method help!

[itsyahboydanny]

Hey NR!

 

Got 2 questions. So I want to upgrade from my 5g AIO, only thing I'm running is filter floss in the back, to a 11.4g Mr Aqua with no back chambers. So I want to run al natural, with just my tide, a heater, and a koralia 425.

 

1. Will I be getting enough oxygen into the water? I feel like the back chambers kind of air-ate (not sure on the spelling there) the water.

 

2. Im good at my once a week water changes so that won't be a issue but I do change out some brown filter floss once a week. Is this stuff in the filter floss going to float around and crash my tank??

 

I want more room!! But I'm poor college kid and seeing as I own the tank and heater already, all I would need would be the koralia.

 

[itsyahboydanny]

Bump

[tibbsy07]

Going all natural in a tank is difficult and in many ways makes no sense - your tank is not the ocean, nor will it ever even be a snapshot of it - there are too many things we lack in our tanks that exist in the ocean and will never be replicated in our tanks. We need mechanical and chemical filtration because our biological filtration is so limited.

 

Why do you want to go that route, if I may ask? Is it to not have to see the equipment? If you want to do that, buy a canister filter and look up some of the DIY projects here on NR and other places on making those more efficient and contained.

 

The koralia, if pointed at the water surface, will help aerate the water, but you may need 2 to do the job properly.

 

As for the detritus crashing your tank, no it won't crash your tank, but it will settle on the bottom and make the sand gross. If you go all natural you'll also need to do larger water changes weekly. I'd say ~50% weekly to ensure enough waste removal and water replenishment.

[itsyahboydanny]

Going all natural in a tank is difficult and in many ways makes no sense - your tank is not the ocean, nor will it ever even be a snapshot of it - there are too many things we lack in our tanks that exist in the ocean and will never be replicated in our tanks. We need mechanical and chemical filtration because our biological filtration is so limited.

 

Why do you want to go that route, if I may ask? Is it to not have to see the equipment? If you want to do that, buy a canister filter and look up some of the DIY projects here on NR and other places on making those more efficient and contained.

 

The koralia, if pointed at the water surface, will help aerate the water, but you may need 2 to do the job properly.

 

As for the detritus crashing your tank, no it won't crash your tank, but it will settle on the bottom and make the sand gross. If you go all natural you'll also need to do larger water changes weekly. I'd say ~50% weekly to ensure enough waste removal and water replenishment.

It's more because I want to upgrade and this would be a cheap route. I only do 1g in my 5g tank weekly, I was thinking 2g in an 11g weekly would cut it. The only difference from this idear and my current tank is that I'm running filter floss atm, I only have one fish and he only gets fed pellets and he eats every one

[tibbsy07]

Don't skimp out and go cheap. You'll spend way more in the long run - trust me I did it a BUNCH when I started.

 

If you want to try it, go for it, but I think you'll end up needing to do larger water changes (or smaller changes but more frequently) or you'll end up adding more filtration.

 

You could try and find local used HOBs - you are in Gainesville, i'm sure there are local reefers looking to sell parts. Jacksonville isn't far away, nor is Tampa. There are TONS of great shops in FL and lots of reefers. You might even check to see if UF's marine sciences group has some stuff they are willing to sell

[itsyahboydanny]

Don't skimp out and go cheap. You'll spend way more in the long run - trust me I did it a BUNCH when I started.

 

If you want to try it, go for it, but I think you'll end up needing to do larger water changes (or smaller changes but more frequently) or you'll end up adding more filtration.

 

You could try and find local used HOBs - you are in Gainesville, i'm sure there are local reefers looking to sell parts. Jacksonville isn't far away, nor is Tampa. There are TONS of great shops in FL and lots of reefers. You might even check to see if UF's marine sciences group has some stuff they are willing to sell

I hate messing with HOB filters >.< and I'd only put filter floss in it anyhow

[tibbsy07]

Then I think your answer is set. You can try it, and hopefully it works.

[itsyahboydanny]

Then I think your answer is set. You can try it, and hopefully it works.

 

I'm nervous about it lol I'm still on the fence

[markalot]

The bottom line is always the same.

 

If imports > exports then eventually the tank will crash, but before then it will become a maintenance nightmare. Algae in the sand, poor coral health, cloudy water, etc.

 

I think just water changes will work if you spend money getting a larger storage container and getting used to doing more water changes, and quick water changes. Buy a 25 gallon Brute, for example, mix up 15 or 20 gallons of water and do 2 or 3 gallon changes every few days.

[itsyahboydanny]

Thanks guys! We'll see, I'm going to reflect, I have a good thing going and I'd hate to ruin it now, but I'm out of room and I want moar corals!

[khuzdul]

1) That depends on how you set up your pump. Yes if you have enough surface turbulence. No if you do not.

2) The stuff will float around. If you can siphon out the gunk when you do the water change it would be helpful. What is the stuff coming from? There should not be too much "gunk" floating around. Are you feeding?

 

Even with a "natural method", some people still use something like an aquaclear filter modified into hob with some filter floss and chaeto. It is inexpensive and would give you surface agitation (if you get the surface skimmer mod, it will also "skim" the proteins off the surface of the water), a place to put a the heater and keep the interior of the tank very "clean" looking, and a place for a chaeto refugium for some pods.

[Jackal_Knight]

Just do it, you'll be fine I ran my tank natural for a 8 months. My skimmers air plugged up months ago so I stopped running it and I don't use filter floss. I just recently started using a reactor but I didn't have a problem before just more toys. Just vacuum up the sand bed every water changes and the koralia should be plenty for water flow

[lokipsl]

The bottom line is always the same.

 

If imports > exports then eventually the tank will crash, but before then it will become a maintenance nightmare. Algae in the sand, poor coral health, cloudy water, etc.

 

I think just water changes will work if you spend money getting a larger storage container and getting used to doing more water changes, and quick water changes. Buy a 25 gallon Brute, for example, mix up 15 or 20 gallons of water and do 2 or 3 gallon changes every few days.

+1 I used to run a 20 gallon tank with only a mp10 and a very small heater. I kept a 25 gallon Brute container with salt mixed at all times and every day or so when I'm relaxing and enjoying the tank I would simply take a one gallon jug (that I cut for a easier scooping effect) take a scoop or two of water out and put a scoop or two back in. Every week I would baste the rocks to suspend ditritus and syphon. I did however have a Tom's mini canister filter in event I had to run carbon

[Nano sapiens]

I am surprised to see the negative comments regarding the 'natural system' as somehow more fragile and less stable, a maintenance nightmare and will lead to various issues that can only be handled by man-made products (skimmer, GFO, GAC, floss, etc.). I would invite those who think along these lines to reflect and reconsider as there are many different ways to run a nano tank, some more successful than others in the hands of different people.

 

My 'natural' 12g nano has run quite well for nigh on 7 years now and it is just as viable as any other if certain husbandry routines are established (as should be done for any tank...these small tanks are not 'set them and forget them' systems). In sum total, I do not spend any more time on my system than I would if I had all the typical aids people think they need to use. In fact, it is quite likely that I spend less time than most due to not having to maintain auxiliary products/systems.

 

Bottom line is that whether going natural, something in the middle or 'all in' with the whole nine-yards, a nutrient import/waste product export balance must be created and maintained in order for a system to thrive long term.

[khuzdul]

I think that you are reading into the comments things that you want to / expect to see.

 

The most "negative" comments on the "natural method" that I see is that since the WC is the only way anything is getting exported, that the volume of the weekly WC may need to be drastically increased from what the OP was originally thinking. The alternatives to the massive WC regularly if the OP can't do them is to add back in some other method of export, be it a HOB refugium, canister filter or other method. It is not a negative to the "natural method", it is just a way to ensure that the imports are not greater then exports in the OP's new tank. I think that everyone is pretty much saying the same thing on that count, including you.

 

Going to a "natural" tank with only WC is not simply a "cheap" alternative to "active" nutrient export methods. Depending on economies of scale it can actually be a more expensive option. It is only in the nano size tanks that the costs of saltwater mix for a massive WC does not outweigh the cost of doing nutrient export in some other manner and dosing back in missing minerals. The "natural" method in a large tank would work just fine also, but the salt costs would quickly become hideously expensive.

 

Going to a "natural" tank with only WC is also not simply a "less work intensive" way to run a tank. While it reduces the number of items that need maintenance and attention, reducing the number of different tasks required, but the smaller number of tasks that remain require more frequent attention.

 

These are not negative statements, they are statements of fact.

[Nano sapiens]

I think that you are reading into the comments things that you want to / expect to see.

 

The most "negative" comments on the "natural method" that I see is that since the WC is the only way anything is getting exported, that the volume of the weekly WC may need to be drastically increased from what the OP was originally thinking. The alternatives to the massive WC regularly if the OP can't do them is to add back in some other method of export, be it a HOB refugium, canister filter or other method. It is not a negative to the "natural method", it is just a way to ensure that the imports are not greater then exports in the OP's new tank. I think that everyone is pretty much saying the same thing on that count, including you.

 

Going to a "natural" tank with only WC is not simply a "cheap" alternative to "active" nutrient export methods. Depending on economies of scale it can actually be a more expensive option. It is only in the nano size tanks that the costs of saltwater mix for a massive WC does not outweigh the cost of doing nutrient export in some other manner and dosing back in missing minerals. The "natural" method in a large tank would work just fine also, but the salt costs would quickly become hideously expensive.

 

Going to a "natural" tank with only WC is also not simply a "less work intensive" way to run a tank. While it reduces the number of items that need maintenance and attention, reducing the number of different tasks required, but the smaller number of tasks that remain require more frequent attention.

 

These are not negative statements, they are statements of fact.

 

Really? Your idea of 'Statement of fact' is a whole lot different than mine

 

Quotes:

 

"Going all natural in a tank is difficult and in many ways makes no sense"

 

"We need mechanical and chemical filtration because our biological filtration is so limited" (implying that the natural method, which relies on biological processes, won't work)

 

IMO, you are off base with the water changes statement. I use 10% WC/week and have consistent 0.5ppm NO3 and undetectable PO4 (Salifert). If this is 'excessive' in your eyes, so be it. I may cut them back to 5%/wk just to increase the retention of these substances.

 

We are talking about nano tanks in this thread, not large tanks. But, if you want to go there, I ran a 55g 'natural' for 9-1/2 years with 5%/month WCs.

 

Whichever way the OP goes, I wish you the best of luck.

[khuzdul]

That was Tibbs, not I, so I'm not going to put words into his mouth defending him, but the selective quoting overlooked that in the same post he said:

 

"If you go all natural you'll also need to do larger water changes weekly. I'd say ~50% weekly to ensure enough waste removal and water replenishment."

 

or his later post where he wrote:

 

"If you want to try it, go for it, but I think you'll end up needing to do larger water changes (or smaller changes but more frequently) or you'll end up adding more filtration."

 

so I don't think that you are portraying his posts a neutrally as you think that you are reading them.

 

The amount of water needed per water changes depends entirely on how much input there is to export and how many trace elements need to be replenished. If you can get by in your tanks with 10% on a nano or 5% on a 55 gallon, that's great. That has no bearing on the OP's stocking, stocking levels, feeding and ultimately how much water he will need to change per week, both to replenish depleted nutrients and to export waste. Have you looked at how many LPS he has in his tank currently? Seeing as he has filled his current tank to the max and his intention of going to a larger tank is to fill that one up, I'm with the other respondents and wager he will have to have larger water changes than you did if he wants to go natural without dosing or Kalk and without other exports from the tank than a WC.

 

And yes, I do stand by my statements that natural tanks are not a "cheap" alternative to other forms of reef keeping. The relative cost of salt for water changes vs other forms of export can change in relative advantage/disadvantage depending on how much of each consumable is needed for each given method. Salt can be more expensive over time than than filter floss, cutting chaeto, or dumping skim as the upfront costs for the equipment become amortized.

 

I also stand by the statement that there is a decreased number of tasks, but increased attention/frequency of the remaining tasks. Like you, I'm running a "natural" tank. I only use two powerheads, a light and a heater, but unlike you I don't even dose Kalk or Iodine. I "only" do about a 12% WC per week which currently works for me. I really don't think that the bias you think you are reading against "natural" tanks is the bias that is actually there. I think a fair reading is "OP, you started recently and have a lot of nice stuff. If you are making several significant changes, such as change to a new tank, adding even more to your new tank using a method of reef keeping that you never used before with WC only, you know, you might not be on top of all your water parameters. We recommend that you to err on the side of caution and do larger water changes so you don't crash your tank" and not "don't do a natural tank because it is impossible/a nightmare."

[Nano sapiens]

Ummm, I never said I was quoting you. The quotes stand as they are, plain and simple, and were made in this thread.

 

We could go back-and-forth on here forever arguing a minutiae of details, which won't really help the OP.as he's looking at the broader picture of which method to go with.

 

In the end effect, he'll have to come to his own conclusions based on what he perceives as sound advice.

[righttirefire]

Personally, I feel anyone willing to ask advise on trying something new or different is admirable. Regardless of the reasoning, there is no wrong way to operate YOUR reef. Personally I ran my 20 gallon tall with bio only for 3 months. Dry sand, live rock and an AC50 with chaeto. I decided to add a second AC50 with filter sponge and chemi-pure elite. I ended up setting a sump refugium. With filter sock, deep sand bed, live rock, and chaeto.

So whatever you decide commit to it and be willing to upgrade and modify your system to suit your desires.

I think the mr. Aqua 12 long makes a beautiful tank.

Good luck

[Horerczy]

I've run several tanks bio only before. It's all about maintaining a balance of good husbandry and balancing your nurient ins and outs.

[Lynaea]

Definitely check out Nano Sapiens tank thread if you haven't already. I'm running a filter less tank but have macro algae and Gorgs to 'clean up' the excess nutrients. I also blow off my rocks with a baster before weekly(ish) water changes (I think Nano does this too?).

 

It's definitely doable, just a matter of striking the right balance as others have stated.

 

Link to my tank thread is below but it's not as nice as Nano's. ?

[hey]

My tank is pretty natural method at this point although I do like a little mechanical filtration to keep the water column a little less dusty looking. I am a big fan of packing as much biological diversity into a tank as possible and also find invasive macros of most types to be attractive and helpful in a reef tank. Not everyone shares this view and to them I say skim on.

[stefalopod]

So, I've been running a low maintenance nano for years now. No sponges or filter floss, just a heater, mp10, and an HOB skimmer that runs during the day. I empty the skimmer maybe every couple weeks at the most, and top off water every week or two. Water changes I might do every couple months. Is it a reef? Well, not really. There are some softies and LPSs, and they look happy and grow slowly, but with the exception of my ricordia yuma (which has budded all over the place) they don't thrive. My nutrient export comes in the form of macro algae harvesting every two or three months. I grow a colony of grape caulerpa when I've gone too long between water changes.

 

If you think about it, harvesting nuisance algae out of your DT is natural reef keeping, it just doesn't maximize the look of your reef.

 

All of the gadgets are basically there to help make your DT look as stunningly beautiful as it can, skipping them probably won't kill your reef (hasn't killed mine), but it does reduce the odds that you'll be able to keep a pristine aquarium unless you're ultra committed to frequent maintenance in the form of water changes, etc. I adore my orchid dottyback and make sure that he's got everything he needs to be active, curious, and happy, but I don't chose to spend a lot of time or money on my aquarium, and when I get an algae bloom, I view it optimistically as my ecosystem working to neutralize contaminants. That's a lifestyle that works for me and I haven't lost a tank inhabitant in more than two years (it was a turbo snail), but it's worth being aware of the downsides.

 

Just an added thought, one benefit of running a protein skimmer is that it acts like an oxygen exchange reactor, so you don't have to worry about not having an overflow to get your oxygen exchange on.

[Alexraptor]

I went natural once.

On average I do a partial water change once a month, with a couple of consecutive major onces a few times a year to even out trace elements.

But the longest I ever went without a water change in a full biological system was 6 months in my former mantis tank without any adverse effects.

My Mandarin tank would still be going "all-natural" if I wasn't for a calcerous macroalgae going sexual that killed my wheeler goby and made me a bit paranoid, so now I run a skimmer exclusively as an extra safety net for any future potential bloom event.

 

IMO a full biological full blown reef tank is more than viable, but for a pristine reef I would have a refugium or satellite tank of near equal size dominated with macro algae.