Giesemann/ATI T5 lamp comparison - pics, PAR, and a whole mess of data

[jedimasterben]

(For viewing this document as a single post, please click here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WHuol0uRn2W7Jk-rxYWmtNgUF-lkY_VlUpAiNsMwME4/pub )

So I am relatively new to the T5 scene. I’m more an LED guy myself, but the same principles apply (it’s all physics anyway). My first T5 added were a pair of ATI Coral Plus, which are gorgeous standalone lamps. Come lamp replacement time I was looking for something with a touch more blue, but not so significant as using blue lamps, so I tried a pair of Giesemann Lagoon Blue, which, frankly, were horrific. They were described as ‘a turquoise blue color’ which i thought would be cool, but in reality it was far from it, just a drab white lamp with a slight yellow tint, it actually made some of my non-fluorescent stuff look worse, was really unimpressed with how unbalanced they were.

Fast forward a few months, I then saw in a discussion that Coralvue was the distributor for Giesemann’s new lamp line. They reworked a few of the lamps from the old D-D line and added some new ones, increased their output, and changed the name on some. I talked with Chris from Coralvue about it, and he wanted to send me a couple of them to use to see how I liked them. He originally sent one Aquablue Coral and one Actinic Blue. I personally couldn’t really tell the difference between them and the ATI Coral Plus and Blue Plus that they replaced. PAR was pretty close between them on my Apogee sensor, within margin of error (slight victory to the Actinic Blue versus the Blue Plus, and slight victory to the Coral Plus versus the Aquablue Coral).

Fast forward another few months and I again talked to Chris and he offered to send me some more of the lamps to try out, this time six in total to be able to see different combinations. This time I also purchased six ATI lamps from Marine Depot in the same corresponding colors to do a comparison to share, just getting some pictures of different combinations and getting some basic PAR numbers.

It took quite a while to get everything ready. I was waiting for a Nano Box Reef retrofit to a 6x39w ATI Sunpower to arrive, and when it did it was unfinished due to a delay in some of the electronics, but once everything arrived, I reassembled everything and got to it.

Keep in mind I don’t have nearly the amount of coral to compare as some do, and on top of that most have non-fluorescent pigmentation.

ATI Lamps
2x Blue Plus



Coral plus
(unfortunately, one of the Coral Plus lamps I received was defective, so I wasn’t able to get any photos of two of them alone)


2x Purple Plus



2x Blue Plus and 2x Purple Plus



2x Blue Plus, 1x Coral Plus, and 1x Purple Plus



Giesemann lamps
2x Aquablue Coral



2x Actinic Blue



2x Super Purple



2x Actinic Blue, 2x Aquablue Coral



2x Actinic Blue, 2x Super Purple



2x Aquablue Coral, 2x Super Purple



2x Actinic Blue, 1x Aquablue Coral, 1x Super Purple



And last we have a mixture of the two brands' white/purple lamps.
1x Aquablue Coral, 1x Coral Plus, 1x Purple Plus, 1x Super Purple


The above combo actually looked the best to me out of all of them IMHO. Plenty of fluorescent response, and every non-fluorescent color still expressed.

And here is a shot of the lamps themselves when running.

Left to right
Coral Plus, Actinic Blue, Blue Plus, Aquablue Coral



Super Purple, Purple Plus, Coral Plus, Aquablue Coral


And now for something a little different. Coralvue had some of the Giesemann lamps sent to a third party lamp manufacturer and asked for them to do things like spectral output graphs, lumen data, electrical data, etc. Data was also collected for some ATI and D-D Powerchrome lamps, as well, but I’ve removed the D-D lamps as they are no longer in production. The third party did not wish to be identified(I think they were worried if Giesemann or ATI didn't like the results that they might sue, etc), so take these for what you will, but keep in mind that each lamp had over 600 data points that were measured, across 20 tests (each lamp tested twice, and some duplicate lamps were sent), for a total of 12,000 data points. It would be rather… tedious to change juuuust the right ones.

Spectral measurements were taken using a Gooch & Housego OL 756 Spectroradiometer (double monochromator).

Radiometric and luminous output data was collected using a Labsphere LMS-3M integrating sphere, measurements at 10” distance, no reflectors.

I have uploaded each spreadsheet containing the raw data (which includes functions to produce a spectral graph based on each reading of each individual wavelength from 200-800nm) to Google Sheets for easy viewing. The caveat to that is that, unlike Excel, it does not connect each point using a line, so the graphs on the linked spreadsheets are just points on the plot. I have pulled the graphs out of Excel and have uploaded them separately and will post each with the appropriate data.

First up, let’s take a look at the electrical, luminous, and PAR characteristics for each of the tested lamps. The lamps were tested twice each - once brand new out of the box, the other with 100 hours of burn time. (sorry for the screenshot here, there is no easy way to put a spreadsheet onto the forum, so if you want a better view, you can find the full data set here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GUu0c1EiCA1P9XzWDgv0RVcSmYXMTWmGRKb-0VVxTik/pubhtml?gid=0&single=true )



ATI Aquablue Special
0 hours
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ICV08bbHWAS45TK8B6jEVDKGr8gOrZM6B-cfYtWozZY/pubhtml



100 hours
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xOVWjx9oyesrRWZHdLQ-J55UYJdUAupipcRJ2DXTzrg/pubhtml



ATI Blue Plus
0 hours
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LPzdUSR-aJsp-oQFfhK3H4gJA-vVLSptYkeV9N08DWE/pubhtml



100 hours
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17_ANHWiTm1jFtXxnpUbUqVa2ZtDNuApbseyqaKyG-b8/pubhtml



ATI Coral Plus
0 hours
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1l5ModHvc5AW_3lp4b2SXad53SKj8LC1Oq9kMKtivV3I/pubhtml



100 hours
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IkVJVFRlojSSR7VsPA0rSQQ4YCaWNUcClIE0NYNcyUQ/pubhtml



ATI True Actinic
0 hours
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1v8sDnhaP4XhhUKcvl_AZHIr-5Nk9Td1DPwMDM1mavk4/pubhtml



100 hours
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ijY2fdTVIAa4cIj-J_MVr2sbSGWPJSLMiXDU7OehcjQ/pubhtml



Giesemann Actinic Blue
0 hours
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JHBJmE535F4ltHVzZqLYxQUpNV-1AXrQZ6VHWR9EI6o/pubhtml



100 hours
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Ws1v9ulo8ge78YGxZB_lz81h1H2rQqz_3OQYHt11jio/pubhtml



Giesemann Aquablue Coral
0 hours
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CKsrjFgwovod64XrC2NxhT8L8A1bNC3HU3J-hIe52Rs/pubhtml



100 hours
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qELjRQKdLDaSBpkJ15pmJbXIDPPWNXXqi8AoMRBHsRY/pubhtml



Giesemann Lagoon Blue
0 hours
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pvipmh4_a1yo_NYCW3C-FhxeR9r4DpDtc5rmixKujfg/pubhtml



100 hours
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ghC1kDjui7yghJRnXW3wzkh3teHTvwW7ErOu157jP8w/pubhtml



Hopefully that gives a little bit of data on these new lamps to show that Giesemann’s new line is better than what they could do previously.

Now, which combo would I recommend? Well, that’s 100% personal preference. I really am not tied to using any of the four T5 in my Sunpower because I have the tank pretty sufficiently covered with two rows of LED arrays.


However, I’ve been playing with using a pair of the lamps for a couple of hours per day. When no LEDs are on, using one white (Aquablue Coral or Coral Plus) and one blue (Actinic Blue or Blue Plus), IMHO it doesn’t look all that great. I know most people use and adore that 1:1 lamp combo, but to me, it is bland. I am not a fan of overly blue tanks, and a 1:1 ratio is overly blue. Adding a purple lamp (Purple Plus, Super Purple) helps a little, but still not ‘white’ enough IMHO.

None of these combinations would be inherently better as far as growth is concerned, as their PAR is pretty similar, so using all blue lamps or all white lamps will grow corals as well as a mixture of the two. Lots of people will still tell you ‘10K for growth, 20K for color’ but IMHO it has more to do with the extra intensity from ‘10K’ bulbs than in the spectral change (it takes more energy to make blue photons than it does green or red, so you can make more photons [meaning more PAR] with green and red). The only exception is for violet bulbs (Super Actinic, True Actinic), as violet have far lower total photons emitted, so much less PAR. These should only be used in 6-8 bulb combinations if you need to lower intensity but still want to use all the bulbs.

So pick whichever combo you think looks best over your tank and let your corals grow!

[Reefkid88]

Awesome write up man. I was wondering when you'd be done with this. There's a slight difference between the Actinic Blue and the AquaBlue Coral but I like that small difference. I'm definitely book marking this one. I may have to order some Giesemann bulbs when I need to swap bulbs out.

 

But after looking at the pics of the blues and pink/purples the coral+ and AquaBlue coral are in both pictures,but look totally different. Any reason why ? Old gens and new gens ?!

[fishguywc]

Thanks for the great write up! I'm very new to the t5 relm and this was very helpful. I'm using 2 B+ and 2 C+ on my 4 bulb and love it so far, might take your recommendation and throw a purple in there to replace one of the bulbs and see how that looks.

[jedimasterben]

Awesome write up man. I was wondering when you'd be done with this. There's a slight difference between the Actinic Blue and the AquaBlue Coral but I like that small difference. I'm definitely book marking this one. I may have to order some Giesemann bulbs when I need to swap bulbs out.

 

But after looking at the pics of the blues and pink/purples the coral+ and AquaBlue coral are in both pictures,but look totally different. Any reason why ? Old gens and new gens ?!

The Actinic Blue is a blue bulb and the Aquablue Coral is a white bulb (akin to the Blue Plus and Coral Plus, respectively, at least they keep the naming convention similar lol).

 

As for your question, I think you're talking about the photos of the lamps themselves? The camera took on a heavy blue tone when looking directly at the lamps and it was difficult to remove it. That photo is more for reference of the two blue bulbs and the photo of the purple/white bulbs is for their comparisons as that one did not need any post-production.

 

Thanks for the great write up! I'm very new to the t5 relm and this was very helpful. I'm using 2 B+ and 2 C+ on my 4 bulb and love it so far, might take your recommendation and throw a purple in there to replace one of the bulbs and see how that looks.

You'll probably like the results, gives the light a little more rich color, takes a little bit of the blue tone off.

[Reefkid88]

I was guessing that's probably what happened. I was thinking to myself God bless,wtf is going on here lol. The Actinic Blue looks a little more blue,and a little darker (I'm assuming a deeper color) than the Blue+. Am I correct in thinking that or are my eyes just playing tricks on me ?

[jedimasterben]

I overlaid some of the lamps' spectral graphs over each other. Blue are ATI, Red are Giesemann.

 

Coral Plus and Aquablue Coral

 

 

Aquablue Special and Aquablue Azure (I just realized I've been calling it Lagoon blue)

 

 

Blue Plus and Actinic Blue

[markalot]

Woah, no wonder the Azure looked so bad. It takes the uglies in the ABS and adds more.

 

So the differences are slight but really no reason to use anything but ATI.

[jedimasterben]

Woah, no wonder the Azure looked so bad. It takes the uglies in the ABS and adds more.

 

So the differences are slight but really no reason to use anything but ATI.

Yeah, that's why I never even mentioned that I would test the Azure. Bulbs like that need to die

 

What makes you say that there is no reason to use anything but ATI? It's one thing if the lamps did not have the right output or varied significantly in their spectrum (such as in the cheap T5) but Giesemann definitely offers an alternative. Unfortunately, such as for you, the Giesemann lamps are also a couple bucks more in 60" lengths, so it definitely makes sense for those with longer tanks at this time.

[markalot]

I don't see anything in the 3 spectra above that makes me think the bulbs are better or much different, except typically not as powerful. What am I missing.

[jedimasterben]

I don't see anything in the 3 spectra above that makes me think the bulbs are better or much different, except typically not as powerful. What am I missing.

The only one with less output than the ATI equivalent is the Actinic Blue (the PAR and radiometric data are in the charts above). The overlaid graphs aren't 100% scaled to equalized output, to be frank I'm not even sure how I would limit this as it is not quite as straightforward as resizing the images on top of each other like I did

[markalot]

Gotcha.

 

Do you have complete graphs of a full spectrum LED? I keep hearing LED has peaks and valleys but in fact LED seems to be the smooth one while MH and T5 have the peaks and valleys. What equipment is used to do these tests?

[GHill762]

nice writeup benny, I've been waiting for this!!

[jedimasterben]

Gotcha.

 

Do you have complete graphs of a full spectrum LED? I keep hearing LED has peaks and valleys but in fact LED seems to be the smooth one while MH and T5 have the peaks and valleys. What equipment is used to do these tests?

The same equipment that are used for measuring any other light, in this case a spectroradiometer and an integrating sphere.

 

If you want to play around with an LED spectrum estimator (that is actually fairly accurate), check this out: http://spectra.1023world.net/

 

If you want, we can continue this here to keep this thread on track: http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/345478-an-updated-led-guide-v11/page-2

 

[jedimasterben]

I was guessing that's probably what happened. I was thinking to myself God bless,wtf is going on here lol. The Actinic Blue looks a little more blue,and a little darker (I'm assuming a deeper color) than the Blue+. Am I correct in thinking that or are my eyes just playing tricks on me ?

Whoops, forgot to include your quote when I made the graphs above. The Actinic blue is slightly more violet to the eye than the Blue Plus, but my eyes can see the difference of a few nm (still only slightly) while most won't pick up on it.

[ifarmer]

the manufacture that makes ATI bulbs (Phillipps) is the same manufacture the makes Giesemann

[jedimasterben]

the manufacture that makes ATI bulbs (Phillipps) is the same manufacture the makes Giesemann

No. ATI lamps are made by Sylvania and Giesemann lamps are made by Narva. Philips does not make any 'reef' lamps to the best of my knowledge.

 

However, fun fact. This is the spectra for the Philips Actinic 03, which is the original violet spectrum T12VHO that made it possible for reefers to have great looking corals instead of just using daylight lamps that gave a yellow tinge a few decades ago.

 

Which bulb does it most look like?

[xmas_one]

No. ATI lamps are made by Sylvania and Giesemann lamps are made by Narva. Philips does not make any 'reef' lamps to the best of my knowledge.

 

However, fun fact. This is the spectra for the Philips Actinic 03, which is the original violet spectrum T12VHO that made it possible for reefers to have great looking corals instead of just using daylight lamps that gave a yellow tinge a few decades ago.

 

Which bulb does it most look like?

My favorite ATI bulb, it hits that chlorophyll a peak real nice. Most people run a ton of blue +, against the actinic I wonder which bulb is putting out more PUR?

[markalot]

I'm going to add two comments after running a few of these bulbs for a while.

 

First, I think you short changed the Aquablue Azure. By itself it looks pretty bad, though not as bad as the ABS, but paired with purple+ it really looks good, a nice even distribution of corals and nothing is washed out. If I swap it with an ABS I lose most of my color, so it's different.

 

Second, the Actinic Blue bulbs are very very different from blue+, you can see it both in the tank and when you look at the bulbs with a blue+ running. The ABs are a nice rich blue while the blue+ is a blue/green. The AB is my new favorite bulb, I doubt I will ever buy blue+ again. I don't care if the spectra looks the same, it's very different to the eye so some measurement is not catching that.

 

I still have to get the G coral+ equivalent, and might as well try their purple as well.

[markalot]

You can clearly see the blue+ bulb in the back slot. Not even close. Blue+ is 2 months old, Giesemann are one month old. Front bulb is a Giesemann Super Actinic, followed by the Azure, AB, AB, Purple+, Blue+.

 

[jedimasterben]

Thanks mark! I might have to give the Azure a shot, but with only four bulbs I don't want it to stand out too much.

[pgrVII]

So I'll mouth breathe it up here,Ben, you so smart buddy!

[MikeTR]

moar stuff to read.. later.. when head not stuffy n stuffed n stuff.

[braaap]

Bump for those looking for bulb ideas. Gonna buy a Actinic Blue to check out.

[dutch27]

Is the OP still active? I'd be interested to see the PAR off at the edges of the tank that isn't directly under the fixture to see how it drops off as you get away from the direct lighting.

 

.

[jedimasterben]

Is the OP still active? I'd be interested to see the PAR off at the edges of the tank that isn't directly under the fixture to see how it drops off as you get away from the direct lighting.

 

.

Only have a PAR map for 36"x18" area. PAR will drop off quickly beyond the 36" length.