Please help! Cycle won't start...

[Kyleqb]

I started my 20g 2 weeks ago... Using only dry rock and dry sand... On day one I added sinking fish pellets to the system - this got filtered to a sock which I than on day 2,3,4,5 added another pinch of fish food. After a week of not even a slight ammonia spike. I changed the sock due to clogging. I this time I did something different. I grabbed a mesh bag and chucked like 4 teaspoons of fish pellets into the bad and has been sitting in my display tank for 3 days now. The water smells of fish food and the display had been a bit cloudy for a couple days. I have also done a sachem stability 7 day cycle.

 

Did a full water test now and:

Ammonia: 0

Nitrites: 0

Nitrates: 0

PO4: 0

 

 

What is happening

[cjm3fl]

Your probably not putting enough in the tank.

A 20g is fairly decent size and a few pellets, followed by a couple pinches of flake food, ain't enough to register.

 

An old way was using an uncooked frozen shrimp (human consumption).

You might want to add more pellets, maybe an ounce worth, and see if you get any readings.

 

I've used the 'fish food' method myself, in 10G tanks. It can take a pretty decent amount of food to get a completed cycle.

[waveland]

I just cycled my tank (30L) with a one inch piece of raw shrimp in one of my wifes old panty hose. I didn't have any issues with cloudy water or smells, though the decaying shrimp stunk when I finally pulled it out of the tank. I kept only filter floss in and didn't run my skimmer. My ammonia dropped to zero on day 11 and my nitrites dropped to zero on day 20. I used dry rock with two small pieces of live rock, but I did by Carib Sea live sand and put in a solid 2" bed.

 

Good luck!

[Kyleqb]

Your probably not putting enough in the tank.

A 20g is fairly decent size and a few pellets, followed by a couple pinches of flake food, ain't enough to register.

 

An old way was using an uncooked frozen shrimp (human consumption).

You might want to add more pellets, maybe an ounce worth, and see if you get any readings.

 

I've used the 'fish food' method myself, in 10G tanks. It can take a pretty decent amount of food to get a completed cycle.

****

Thanks for the advice

I just took out the mesh bag and there was a lot of gunk considering I had no ammonia. I can't explain.

I just cycled my tank (30L) with a one inch piece of raw shrimp in one of my wifes old panty hose. I didn't have any issues with cloudy water or smells, though the decaying shrimp stunk when I finally pulled it out of the tank. I kept only filter floss in and didn't run my skimmer. My ammonia dropped to zero on day 11 and my nitrites dropped to zero on day 20. I used dry rock with two small pieces of live rock, but I did by Carib Sea live sand and put in a solid 2" bed.

 

Good luck!

I have just taken away the mesh with pellets and have just added a mesh bag with a shrimp in it... Let's start dey one again.

 

I'll let you know how it goes

 

Cheers.

[ajmckay]

Maybe go back and read about the "cycle" a bit more. When we refer to a tank being cycled we're saying that it has all the necessary bacteria to convert decaying organic matter into less harmful substances. A typical example is you add food to the tank. It starts to decompose - various processes (physical, bacterial, fungal, etc...) act on it and some of it is converted to ammonia (a byproduct of decomposition) which is toxic to most higher life forms. Then bacteria from the family Nitrobacteraceae convert the ammonia to nitrite then nitrate.

 

So all you need to cycle a tank is the right bacteria. In time the bacteria will be introduced naturally, however, it can be done really quickly by adding a piece of live rock rubble, live sand, or bottled bacteria such as biospira.

 

Then all you need to do is "grow" the bacterial population - also known as the biofilter. The cleanest way to do this is by adding pure ammonia (buy clear unscented ammonia without additives - usually found at smaller hardware stores). Google "ammonia dosing calculator" and it will give you approximate dosing guidelines. Once the tank can process about 3ppm of ammonia in 24 hours it should be ready for livestock. Using a bottle of bacteria and ammonia maturing the biofilter doesn't take long. Using a piece of live rock/live sand may take a little longer, but not significantly. IMO ammonia is the cheapest and cleanest method for cycling a tank though.

 

The raw shrimp method does work, however adding a raw shrimp without the appropriate processes in place to decompose it will potentially just foul the water - it's an old method and you are adding bacteria to the tank that doesn't need to be there. Same goes for pellet/flake food. That stuff is formulated not to break down too quickly in water so adding it would likely just result in a goo and would not result in an ammonia "spike" like you're looking for. Add a piece of established rock or sand to the tank and that will at least introduce the appropriate bacteria in a timely manner and then you can "feed" those bacteria and build up the populations by dosing ammonia. Hope this makes sense good luck with whatever you decide to do.

[Kyleqb]

Maybe go back and read about the "cycle" a bit more. When we refer to a tank being cycled we're saying that it has all the necessary bacteria to convert decaying organic matter into less harmful substances. A typical example is you add food to the tank. It starts to decompose - various processes (physical, bacterial, fungal, etc...) act on it and some of it is converted to ammonia (a byproduct of decomposition) which is toxic to most higher life forms. Then bacteria from the family Nitrobacteraceae convert the ammonia to nitrite then nitrate.

 

So all you need to cycle a tank is the right bacteria. In time the bacteria will be introduced naturally, however, it can be done really quickly by adding a piece of live rock rubble, live sand, or bottled bacteria such as biospira.

 

Then all you need to do is "grow" the bacterial population - also known as the biofilter. The cleanest way to do this is by adding pure ammonia (buy clear unscented ammonia without additives - usually found at smaller hardware stores). Google "ammonia dosing calculator" and it will give you approximate dosing guidelines. Once the tank can process about 3ppm of ammonia in 24 hours it should be ready for livestock. Using a bottle of bacteria and ammonia maturing the biofilter doesn't take long. Using a piece of live rock/live sand may take a little longer, but not significantly. IMO ammonia is the cheapest and cleanest method for cycling a tank though.

 

The raw shrimp method does work, however adding a raw shrimp without the appropriate processes in place to decompose it will potentially just foul the water - it's an old method and you are adding bacteria to the tank that doesn't need to be there. Same goes for pellet/flake food. That stuff is formulated not to break down too quickly in water so adding it would likely just result in a goo and would not result in an ammonia "spike" like you're looking for. Add a piece of established rock or sand to the tank and that will at least introduce the appropriate bacteria in a timely manner and then you can "feed" those bacteria and build up the populations by dosing ammonia. Hope this makes sense good luck with whatever you decide to do.

I know all about the nitrogen cycle, this is not my first tank, i have had many reef tanks and have never had a stalled cycle - probably due to the fact I normally fish in cycle. Haven't lost a fish. This time I wanted to fish less cycle. I couldn't possibly do more reading. It's not rocket science.

I would love to just add some ammonia. Only problem is ammonia is a restricted substance in aus. I have asked all the hardware places in my area including LFS's. Food/shrimp is all I have. I am dry rock cycling too. I won't be adding any live rock. Only scappings once the tank is cycled.

[ajmckay]

I know all about the nitrogen cycle, this is not my first tank, i have had many reef tanks and have never had a stalled cycle - probably due to the fact I normally fish in cycle. Haven't lost a fish. This time I wanted to fish less cycle. I couldn't possibly do more reading. It's not rocket science.

I would love to just add some ammonia. Only problem is ammonia is a restricted substance in aus. I have asked all the hardware places in my area including LFS's. Food/shrimp is all I have. I am dry rock cycling too. I won't be adding any live rock. Only scappings once the tank is cycled.

Ahh good. I'm sorry if I jumped to conclusions - though to be fair your initial post makes it sound like you're new to the process as you seem to only be only considering one aspect of the cycle...

 

That's really odd that ammonia is a restricted substance in AUS - I wonder why...

 

Well then to make the answer simple you need the right bacteria in there... Either wait or add the bacteria yourself using a handful of live sand, a piece of LR rubble, or are you able to get bottled bacteria starters like biospira or Dr. Tims? There are others as well - just make sure they contain nitrobacter.

 

One final thought - have you tried an apothecary/pharmacist to source some pure ammonia? You don't need much, a small bottle should suffice.

[Kyleqb]

Ahh good. I'm sorry if I jumped to conclusions - though to be fair your initial post makes it sound like you're new to the process as you seem to only be only considering one aspect of the cycle...

 

That's really odd that ammonia is a restricted substance in AUS - I wonder why...

 

Well then to make the answer simple you need the right bacteria in there... Either wait or add the bacteria yourself using a handful of live sand, a piece of LR rubble, or are you able to get bottled bacteria starters like biospira or Dr. Tims? There are others as well - just make sure they contain nitrobacter.

 

One final thought - have you tried an apothecary/pharmacist to source some pure ammonia? You don't need much, a small bottle should suffice.

No worries, yeah I know the cycle ammonia is just a start to the cycle. Yes I could have wrote my post a bit better. I did also mention in the post I have been adding seachem stability which is a very good bacteria product. However most bacteria in a bottle type things still need ammonia to start up. It says that when you use seachem stability you can add fish right away so.. I might just do that?

 

Cheers

[ajmckay]

Ahh well the seachem stability changes things... Did you add that part to the initial post?

 

I'm not familiar with the product but it's purpose is to establish a biofilter so I assume it contains the appropriate bacteria. Did you already complete the entire dosing process? If you just recently finished it then I think you would be okay to add fish and just watch things carefully. If you finished it more than a week ago you might want to e-mail seachem and see what they recommend. I would be concerned that in the week that passed some of the bacteria may have died off or something.

 

If you have more in the bottle you could probably just do another few days though to give it a boost. Ultimately though, I believe that given you're using the bacterial product I think adding fish will be more efficient, more enjoyable, and much less stinky than handfuls of fish food or raw shrimp.

 

Personally I'm trying to help people avoid using the raw shrimp method... It's dirty and over-recommended (imo). It seems that in every thread on cycling someone recommends adding a raw shrimp as a matter of course. It does work but only if the processes are already in place to process the shrimp. Adding a shrimp does nothing to introduce the appropriate bacteria - so while you wait for the bacteria to populate the shrimp attracts fungus, makes the water smell nasty due to decay, and introduces potentially undesireable bacteria (google Vibrio vulnificus) etc... IMO if someone had a good reason to add a shrimp, it would be better to add a cube of frozen fish food or something - which I believe most commercial brands are sterilized to a degree.

[cjm3fl]

IMO if someone had a good reason to add a shrimp, it would be better to add a cube of frozen fish food or something - which I believe most commercial brands are sterilized to a degree.

 

This would be a much better method.

I've only used the dry fish-food method or the ammonia method.

[waveland]

My LFS told me to pee in a cup and pour it in! Much the same as the ammonia that happens when fish pee!

 

I saw so many do this, do that, don't do this, blah, blah threads on cycling a tank that it was really confusing?

I read that urine has contamintes in it, ammonia is too pure and will inhibit certain bacteria from forming, etc....

I chose the shrimp in a nylon because it was easy. It never stunk or clouded up my water and completed my cycle in just under 20 days.

IMO, there are many ways to get the job done and from the variety of methods on the web, there appears to not yet be one definitive way.

 

All the best!

[Balix]

I dosed with ammonia and a bottle of biospira. Got nitrites in 3 days.

[ajmckay]

Haha! yeah the pee in your tank thing has been brought up several times... Like you said though human urine has contaminants and it's not accurate at all... In other words there's no piss calculator that tells you to "add x mL of piss per 10g - and make sure you eat asparagus so it's super potent". Hahaha!

 

Pure ammonia isn't "too pure" that I know of, but if you add to much it does inhibit bacterial growth. Seabass did an experiment and found that anything over around 5-6ppm of ammonia actually slowed things down (that's what I recall, it may be off a ppm or 2). Generally a 3ppm target is what most use.

 

So while it's true that there are many ways to cycle a tank, I just don't think it's appropriate to suggest a raw shrimp or pee for everyone. Especially when dosing ammonia is so cheap and simple and measurable if you have access to it.

[SchnauzerFace]

My LFS told me to pee in a cup and pour it in! Much the same as the ammonia that happens when fish pee!

 

 

This might explain why I have green hair algae in my toilet.

[printerdown01]

Another trick is to add a bit of sand or detritus from a tank you trust! This was the "old school' method when starting things off with dry rock. Detritus is by far my favorite way to add bacteria to the tank. It is usually bacteria rich and also usually carries worm eggs and the eggs of pods. Combined with the shrimp method it works well. I have actually always used a cube of frozen fish food for a 10 gallon.

 

For what it is worth. I have had a tank that was slow to start cycle once -it was really weird.

[Circle_City_Bill]

I used the solid ammonium chloride from my son's chemistry set--a little easier to work with than commercial ammonia solution. Ammonium ion is converted to ammonia (to a certain extent) in the alkaline saltwater. Dr. Tim's makes an inexpensive ammonium chloride solution that come in a dropper bottle. Haven't used it, but looks easy to dose.

 

I started with about 15 lbs of clean dry rock and one well-cured, coraline encrusted piece of live rock from the LFS. I think the ammonia dropped from > 2ppm to zero in about 14 days (or so).

[Kyleqb]

Ahh well the seachem stability changes things... Did you add that part to the initial post?

 

I'm not familiar with the product but it's purpose is to establish a biofilter so I assume it contains the appropriate bacteria. Did you already complete the entire dosing process? If you just recently finished it then I think you would be okay to add fish and just watch things carefully. If you finished it more than a week ago you might want to e-mail seachem and see what they recommend. I would be concerned that in the week that passed some of the bacteria may have died off or something.

 

If you have more in the bottle you could probably just do another few days though to give it a boost. Ultimately though, I believe that given you're using the bacterial product I think adding fish will be more efficient, more enjoyable, and much less stinky than handfuls of fish food or raw shrimp.

 

Personally I'm trying to help people avoid using the raw shrimp method... It's dirty and over-recommended (imo). It seems that in every thread on cycling someone recommends adding a raw shrimp as a matter of course. It does work but only if the processes are already in place to process the shrimp. Adding a shrimp does nothing to introduce the appropriate bacteria - so while you wait for the bacteria to populate the shrimp attracts fungus, makes the water smell nasty due to decay, and introduces potentially undesireable bacteria (google Vibrio vulnificus) etc... IMO if someone had a good reason to add a shrimp, it would be better to add a cube of frozen fish food or something - which I believe most commercial brands are sterilized to a degree.

 

 

 

Thanks for the post.

yes I restarted the seachem stability cycle again with the raw shrimp.

it has been in there for about 5 -6 days and still am yet to see even a slight ammonia spike.

 

 

I am using caribsea Liferock too, which apparently is injected with good bacteria that eats ammonia.

 

I have decided to just add a fish in a few days. Im over adding food to the tank. Now I remember why I always fish in cycle.

 

maybe I have too much good bacteria added to the tank to render the shrimp useless.

I have only dosed as per package on the seachem stability. it does say once dosing fish may be added.

 

I will take out the shrimp I think based on your advice.