Dino and refugiums

[mallek]

i have a 30 gallon custom all in one made by pico, its based off their standard all in one and ive dabbled in making some of the rear chambers refugiums. This is my third attempt, all of which have resulted in dino infestations. the macros used have come from different places everytime, all rinsed in ro water. my first two attempts i used my old current orbit light across the back, only white channel used, this third attempt i bought a cheap led lamp from ikea with a very low kelvin. my question is, what is going on!? i honestly dont get how people run refugiums without dino outbreaks at this point. my cure everytime has been to remove the fuge and black out the tank until it subsides. Any opinions or tips are appreciated. I keep mostly acropora and want to keep a low phosphate level with my current bio loead, hence the repeated attempts.

[Jellyingabout]

Have you got an established CUC in your fuge? and are you removing phosphates?

[mallek]

there are hermits and snails that make there way in the back. there is also a bag of phosgaurd in the media basket

[Jellyingabout]

I think the problem most likely lies in the tank rather than the fuge or the bought macro, but it's finding a safe haven to grow in the fuge. A few possibilities:

 

1- your phosguard is spent and needs replacing

2- you don't have enough phosguard

3-the flow in the fuge is too low (including the through the media)

4- the cuc in the fuge isn't grazing of the natural dinos

 

Dino's simply can't grow without phosphate

[mallek]

I replace once a week, but ill start replacing phosgaurd more frequently, along with larger amounts. the fuge has very little flow (its in the first chamber of the back if your familiar with these tanks) so ill try and drop a pump in there. I guess im surprised the macro combined with what phosgaurd i have isnt enough to outcompete it? in addition to these i use red sea NOPOx combined with a skimmer, with great results in terms of nitrates. I also have no encounters with dino when not running a refugium... i guess the obvious would be a phosphate test soon

[Steve973]

Dino's simply can't grow without phosphate

I wonder about this. I have rebuilt my tank and I used very clean dry rock and bagged sand. I have never had a detectable reading on my Hanna phosphate checker, but my dinos started to come back, though very lightly. I have no doubt that phosphates are like steroids for them, but I wouldn't be surprised if they can tough it out with nearly zero phosphates. It surely doesn't take much, if my experience serves as a good example.

[mallek]

I agree, the research I've found says these, like other protists make resistant "eggs" that wait out unfavorable conditions and repopulate later. I couldn't begin to identify what kind of dino this is, but the articles also mention higher toxicity produced at lower phosphate levels, but decreased numbers. Right now I'm leaving my fuge light on, display light only blues, fresh carbon and phosgaurd in higher quantities, and a cheapy uv filter I have laying around with the pump driving it sitting in my refugium. I still wonder what starting a fuge in my tank starts this. It almost immediately goes away once I remove the fuge, but I want a fuge!

[Jellyingabout]

Its true they can survive at very low phosphates and are very good at it. I remember there being along disusion and here about the possibility of having them purposefully out competeted by diatoms just because the chance of getting your phosphates that low are slim. However simple science is that no phosphates no dinos. In a 30g its much more possible to get phosphates to 0, but you need to maintain 0, not to get it down to 0 and think that's it, because as the dinos die they will continue to release phosphates along with other algae in the tank. Once phosphates are at zero you need to replace the phosguard immediately to make sure you have capacity to take out the extra phosphates that are held up in the algae. Otherwise they'll just keep on living on what they already have.

The reason I say phosphates is between phosphates and the other major macro nutrients dinos are most dependent on phosphates, many papers have shown how residual phosphates can enable dinos to live at extremely low nitrates. Also its going to be much easier to limit the PO4 than the NO3. But other than nutrient control there isn't much else you can do. Their presence is the cold hard evidence that the tank has excess nutrients no matter what your test kits say.

 

The cysts they produce are used in the winter periods, favorable conditions for them are low nutrients and high temperature, and high a photo period with a shallow mixing depth. In the winter nutirents in the surface sea water go much higher than our ideal tank condition's but the dinos still resort to cysts so its not a nutrient thing.

[Steve973]

People have reported some levels of success with UV sterilizers, cuprisorb, and Tropic Marin Algae X, as well as with hydrogen peroxide. At this point, I am thinking of employing all of these methods either at the same time, or in succession. The way that the dinos have begun to repopulate my re-started tank makes me think that cysts are a huge part of it. And, yes, I'll be sure to bind and/or adsorb phosphates during this process.

[mallek]

i think that would absolutely work, given enough time they would die off. would this be the case with the corals in my tank as well? i mostly stock acropora, which like low phosphate, but not absolute zero. your mention of other diatoms and things reminds me of these papers we're reading, one refering to dino using things like cyano as a host. I suspect this is why some cyano clearing chemicals have worked for dyno. Aaaand coincidentally ive had some cyano. Im probably going to go the same route it seems as Steve and use every medication known to man. very strange how the introduction of a phosphate removing macro does this. I wonder if higher nutrients and phosphate would rid them long term, at the expense of my coral colors...