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The return of dinoflagellates! :(


Steve973

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I had an outbreak of dinoflagellates in my IM 16 which carried over when that tank cracked and I moved everything into an IM Fusion 20. I tried blackouts, hydrogen peroxide, and media to absorb stuff. Nothing helped a whole lot. The blackouts worked better than anything else, but the dinoflagellates always returned. The look of them changed over a period of time, like they were pissed off, but I could not keep ahead of them. Since they killed my few frags of SPS, I figured that it would be better worth it to change out my rock and sand and start over. So I ended up with this:

 

20150416_184003.jpg

 

That's about 3 to 4 weeks after my setup. Everything looks clean and I thought everything was going well. Several days later, however, I saw tiny strings (about a half-inch long) with little bubbles appearing all over the rocks. It isn't like there's a patch, and it spreads outward from there. It seems definitely like it spread through the water column. At this point, I want to try Cuprisorb and Fauna Marin Ultra Algea (sic) X, which both seem to have some positive results in the forums.

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Water changes seem to feed the stuff when I had them. I got rid of them by aggressive blackouts and manual removal with toothbrush/turkey baster after the blackout. I also ran a filter sock to catch it and changed that out frequently.

 

I once overdosed on the alk..... the pH spike killed them outright but also took out a bunch of coral :P

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on rc, a poster made some of the baddest res pics id seen

 

actual dinos stuck to the slime coat of fish, it total high res off a $$ camera. magazine quality, book quality ones.

 

anything moved from a dino tank into a clean tank brings it, the key is whether or not variables in the new tank select for dominance or submission. this is why i favor treatment options and not start overs for dinos, we can't buy anything guaranteed to be free when buying from pet stores. too much in and out.

 

One item not considered so far, that we have documented success with in dealing with dinos, many times over now, is oversized UV as a temp hook up to hospital the tank. not correctly sized uv, grossly oversized as in 3 units per tank or 1 giant pond clarifier hooked to a small nano. the reason i like to work with those setups is to beat the dinos. our most recent ex of this is pork chop express' tank fromthe last few pages of the big peroxide thread, ive wondered how thats turned out a few mos after now.

 

the thread with the res pics is from poster DNA i think, in the chem forum, reefcentral, couple years old now, about 60 pages or better, called dinoflagellates there's aren't that many in the chem thread any ole search should work to bring it up.

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As with all algaes, there are different species/strains that react differently. water changes alone seem to fuel dinos, but combined with aggressive syphoning, should eradicate them eventually. and of course keep your excess nutrients in check. hey at least it isn't bryopsis!

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Dinos are tough. syphon them out and do lots of water changes.

This is a brand new setup. I must have brought the dinos in with my two zoanthid frag plugs, even though I was treating them pretty aggressively with hydrogen peroxide. And then, suddenly, these little short streamers of dinos are appearing everywhere, which makes me think that they are in the water column. I am thinking about getting a UV sterilizer (probably an 8 watt TMC Vecton) and running it for a while. There are a couple of other products that seem to get some positive results for dinos, so I might try a multi-faceted approach. At the moment, I am doing a blackout. I just have to keep them from running rampant until I get some countermeasures in place.

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One item not considered so far, that we have documented success with in dealing with dinos, many times over now, is oversized UV as a temp hook up to hospital the tank. not correctly sized uv, grossly oversized as in 3 units per tank or 1 giant pond clarifier hooked to a small nano. the reason i like to work with those setups is to beat the dinos. our most recent ex of this is pork chop express' tank fromthe last few pages of the big peroxide thread, ive wondered how thats turned out a few mos after now.

Within the past couple of days, I hooked up a UV sterilizer and I am pushing water through it with a canister filter. I bought the Vecton V2 200 and a Sunsun 302 at 264 GPH (rated). Granted, that is probably not as oversized as you were suggesting, and the flow rate is a bit fast for maximum effectiveness. However, that is one of the best-rated UV units and I can slow the flow rate by first adding a lot of media to the 3 baskets in the canister filter, and then further limiting it with a valve if necessary. My current dino outbreak (after rebuilding my tank) is quite minor, so I might not need as aggressive means as suggested.

 

At the moment, I don't have any media in the canister filter. I am planning on using filter pads, BRS Rox carbon, purigen, and cuprisorb (some people are reporting effectiveness against dinos). Next, i will be running GFO in my media reactor. I currently have the BRS granular form of GFO, but I might switch the the pelletized form from the filter guys. Alternatively, since I don't have any sensitive organisms in my tank at this point, I could also use seagel or phosguard for more aggressive phosphate removal, at least temporarily.

 

Feel free to critique my approach!

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Throw away the 8 watt sterilizer, buy this one: http://www.amazon.com/SunSun-CUV-155-Light-Sterilizer-Clarifier/dp/B00F5NLZXI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1431100538&sr=8-1&keywords=sunsun+55w+uv

Even on a small tank, an 8w unit will do nothing other than cost you money to buy it.

I'm curious -- what is the basis for your opinion? Is it simply the wattage? Unfortunately, the wattage is not the entirety of the equation. The factors that determine effectiveness include dwell time, flow rate, and the space between the bulb and the containment wall. This is a very good article that explains all of this in-depth: http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumUVSterilization.html

 

Also note that clarification and sterilization (at whatever level) are two different things. I don't want to come off as confrontational, and I am not trying to insult your recommendation, but I want to be sure that we are on the same page.

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jedimasterben

I'm curious -- what is the basis for your opinion? Is it simply the wattage? Unfortunately, the wattage is not the entirety of the equation. The factors that determine effectiveness include dwell time, flow rate, and the space between the bulb and the containment wall. This is a very good article that explains all of this in-depth: http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumUVSterilization.html

 

Also note that clarification and sterilization (at whatever level) are two different things. I don't want to come off as confrontational, and I am not trying to insult your recommendation, but I want to be sure that we are on the same page.

Don't worry, you don't come off as confrontational at all, it's good to question things when you're curious :)

 

IMHO, the website you linked to has some good info mixed with some BS (though it is much more factual and correct than most of their other writings lol).

 

Dinoflagellates aren't too simple of organisms. An 8 watt sterilizer is a small unit in size and needs a trickle of water flowing through it to achieve sterilization depending on the radiometric output of the lamp. Hooking it to the canister filter is too much flow and it won't have any significant dwell time. The 55w unit I linked to has a good quality UV lamp in it and with ~250GPH it has enough dwell time to surpass the necessary level for sterilization of dinoflagellates. It (among removing my sandbed and increasing flow to get more dinos through the sterilizer) had a significant effect for me.

 

The only downside to it was that it caused persistent and significant gelbstoff in my tank that both ROX 0.8 carbon and a large skimmer could not remove fast enough. Didn't cause any issues, just didn't look great lol.

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IMHO, the website you linked to has some good info mixed with some BS (though it is much more factual and correct than most of their other writings lol).

What of their UV sterilizer info, do you think, is BS?

An 8 watt sterilizer is a small unit in size and needs a trickle of water flowing through it to achieve sterilization depending on the radiometric output of the lamp. Hooking it to the canister filter is too much flow and it won't have any significant dwell time. The 55w unit I linked to has a good quality UV lamp in it and with ~250GPH it has enough dwell time to surpass the necessary level for sterilization of dinoflagellates.

What is the spacing between the bulb and the wall with the sunsun unit? I'm working with less than fifteen gallons of water, when you take my sand and rock into consideration.

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jedimasterben

What of their UV sterilizer info, do you think, is BS?

What is the spacing between the bulb and the wall with the sunsun unit? I'm working with less than fifteen gallons of water, when you take my sand and rock into consideration.

The UV info is pretty good, there are only pieces of it that don't line up with data.

 

I honestly can't say that I've measured it, but the lamp fits pretty tightly in the unit.

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brandon429

for sure the oversized uv is a gamble. dont even stop at 55 w, put two inline if you want to be serious it cant be overdone to any other organisms harm that matters. people who change full amounts of water strip their water table of similar organisms, they just come back in perpetuity.

 

the reason to grossly, savagely, set some kind of dork record oversize uv is because you are throwing the kitchen sink and all you got at dinos, for a chance. a chance, Ben is right they are mean. 8 w waste of time. it may work, but dual 55s were avail down the street to a little old lady who got mean yesterday and won. :)

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Trigger334

Hello,

 

Sorry, I have to step in here. I'm employeed at AAP, where these sterilizers and information come from.

 

Steve973, you will see a major improvement on the issue with that 8 watt UV. Better would be a 15 watt Vecton, which would give you level 2 sterilizeration, but you are getting level 1 with the 8 watt, which will be helpful for this parasite.

 

Flow should not be an issue and if it is, that why there's ball valves and T hook ups.

 

You most certainly do not need 55 watts and even move 110 watts.

 

This is based on professional use of sterilizers and developing sterilizers for the last 30 years.

 

Thank you for your support of our work.

 

jedimasterben, if you would like to discuss what you think is BS about our work, please do. But you should know our work is based on aquarium research, which dates back to the 70s. We have many professionals and hobbiest use our information and this work has been peer reviewed by many. On top of that, we sell 100s of sterilizers eah year. With the information steve supplied you, none of them have less then what we publish.

 

So, please lets discuss. There's some red flags here, with some real lacking of proof on these recommendations. If we had to sell sterilizers at the recommendation you two are giving, we would never sell UVs. We supply UVs to some serious set-ups too.

 

Not trying to be confentational, but please be specific as to what you think is BS?

 

Thank You

 

Devon

Trigger334

American Aquarium Products.

 

How to trear Oodinium

http://americanaquariumproducts.com/Oodinium.html

jedimasterben

 

 

 

I didn't even mention that this watt of sterilizer will also improve the Rebox balance of the aquarium, which will imporve immunity of the fish, This will help them kick the parasite naturally.

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Thanks for the info, Devon. The particular dinoflagellate that I'm battling isn't the parasitic kind that attaches to fish, but the slimy, bubbly kind that grows on the rocks like this:

Dino%20pam%20(1).jpg

This stuff, apparently, will kind of hibernate as cysts, and spread that way through the water column. My aim is to kill the cysts while battling the very minor growth that I have on my rocks with blackouts, and nutrient export.

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Trigger334

Morning Steve,

 

Thanks for the clearification and you are correct. Any sterilizer will only help this issue with what's in the water column. The wattage unit you have will take care of the cysts. For what's on the rocks, this will have to be cleaned, then the issue will be minalized after the fact, since what's in the water column is being taken care of.

 

Thanks again. Let us know if there's anything else to help with.

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brandon429

Do you have any examples handy of dino infestations you cured trigger, maybe a thread with more than one?

link me a post I'd like to see the bare minimum wattage needed to wipe a decent infestation based on outcome pics or testimonies from those with the challenge dino tanks

 

when one searches goog for UV dinflagellates you get the typical mix of "it didnt work, it worked great" so what we do is play up the latter by doubling the uv using any combo of lamps as long as its vastly overdone.

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Trigger334

Brandon429- I don't think it would be fair to provide one example as sterilization is no a solve all to these type of issues. I will say too, that I'm not the expert here, but here are a couple quotes from the expert himself Carl Stroymeyer. Author and owner of AAP.

 

"What this means is a true level one capable UV Sterilizer is a useful tool, but also NOT the solution to all your aquarium or pond problems. It will not eradicate all dinoflagellates in your marine aquarium, no matter how good your UV Sterilizer or how slow your water is run through the device. Nor will it make up for poor pond or aquarium filtration, feeding, water chemistry, etc.!!!!"

 

"A UV sterilizer will not kill ich trophozoites or similar parasites already on the fish- TRUE; however then most medications don't either, but the use of UVC can again slow the spread of ich tomites in the water column (but usually not out right kill ich tomites).

HOWEVER by virtue of water quality improvement (such as Redox Potential/Balance) and lowering of pathogenic bacteria, the fish has more natural resistance to fight Marine Cryptocaryon or FW Ich.

This is a fact as per controlled tests I performed in the 1990s!

 

This is why simply improving fish immunity by running a UV Sterilizer at Level 1 often helps with Ich prevention and why a GOOD UV Sterilizer should be a considered just one tool for Ich prevention, NEVER the only tool.

 

Even when run at a low flow rate (8-12 gph per watt depending upon UV Sterilizer for level 2), a UV Sterilizer cannot kill all Ich or Crytocaryon Tomites or Oodinium Dinoflagellates in the water column, as it is impossible to force all these Tomites to pass through the UV.

However increasing the aquarium turnover rate through the UV Sterilizer (2-3 times per hour or more), increases the number of these Ick Tomites or Dinoflagellates killed.

As well pre-filtration, especially with a micron filter placed before the UV Sterilizer can further improve effectiveness of the UV. A micron filter of 10 microns is very effective by itself, but can lower flow since it is very fine, so often a 50 micron pre-filter will suffice when combined with a high dwell time UV run at level 2 Sterilization"

 

http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/aquariumuvsterilization.html

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brandon429

we weren't talking about ich...?

 

When I asked if you had a proof link my hope was a link of tanks you fixed having dinos using any method, then we'd contrast to the ones here using oversized uv. many hold the stance uv won't work, agreed. it doesn't unless its oversized. We use oversized uv to beat dinos, so there is documented opposition to that stance.

 

 

Last 5 pages of our peroxide thread in this forum has a decent one (using uv 55w on nano)

there are more on other forums

The technique we've shown is to consistently siphon/hand remove the dinos from the tank while oversized uv is running to intercept the ones missed. The most common info says not to conduct water changes, many approaches exist in desperation for these invaders.

 

common uv alternates for dinos:

 

Randy H Farleys article on them mentions phosphate stripping as effective

we have seen ph boosting work but it's tricky with live animals in place depending...peroxide dosing has worked in many searchable threads.

effective quarantining is best preventative, never a tank start over as there are varying degrees of attack up to and including all three simultaneously but the large or multi uv alone works great. Blackouts worked for many too

 

Steve, the tanks we've corrected of this stuff had keepers removing the biomass by hand such that you couldn't see it in the tank due to repeated manual work, and they used either peroxide dosing or very oversized uv on the reduced mass until they won. Hand removal was primary factor as was in most algae correction issues as well. There is a very common phenomena in aquarium invasions in which the invader appreciates, finds a niche within, the fact we intentionally leave the very first signs of biomass X in place taking no decisive initial action. For dinos, that's day 1 and by day 3 one can easily have an invaded tank.

 

All dinos can be vectored by fish, not just parasitic ones. algae can be vectored on fish slime coats as well, they are sticky. moving fish to any tank for sure can bring dinos. The pics for this effect are found in reefcentral chem forum, dino thread by poster DNA. High res macro pics of exactly this vectoring id never seen it before his thread, amazing pics they should have been published book mag etc

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I went to the site Trigger mentioned. This was the best bit I found so far.

 

Such "straw man" attacks are akin to stating a person with considerable experience with designing MRI (Magnetic Resonance Imaging) machines is not a credible author of an article extolling an MRI for detecting certain diseases in humans!

 

Actually, such criticism would be valid. An MRI designer does not have the credibility to author an article about disease detection in humans. Sorry.

 

Would you want your medical treatment predicated upon the recommendation of someone with no medical degree and a giant financial conflict of interest? I would not!

 

Might want to pick a better analogy.

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Trigger334
One suggestion Carl makes is the use of Micron filters in another section of this article (Myths & Facts section)

Remember, this article is NOT about curing dinoflagellates, rather about UV Sterilization and its use based on his years of experience and research.


I am not arguing your use of peroxide. This use of peroxide is in another of his articles.

Reference:



As for over sized UV, a poorly made UV with medium pressure UV lamps is not going to have the dwell time of well designed UV such as the Vecton 15 or 25 watt is an over sized UV is what you desire.


Reference about the medium pressure UV lamp used by many low cost UVs:



Cjjon, you make the point for Carl.

Whether or not this analogy is a good one is something we can agree to disagree about, although I think you are miss-reading it, but your using this as a way to attack Carl and his decades of experience and research proves his point of Straw Man attacks. Your disrespectful use of this to attack him as an author speaks volumes.

Why should he not recommend something his research and use has been shown to work. It is also worthy of note that he does not recommend these as a fix for every problem

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brandon429

im waiting for some tanks to be linked, not text articles. proof of simply working in others tanks by before and after pics, those are pref to pages of only non dino associated alternate uv battles.

 

ive listed the 5 top modes we'll see online when searching out dino cures. I read but couldnt see where Carl is collecting more after pics using a diff method? I actually saw zero after pics from zero tank threads involving dinos. im seeing advise on how to treat, but missing where thats being applied in tank threads.

 

to me this discussion isn't about uv its about dinos and uv as an option considering the threads we've collected where they help w dinos. a part i skimmed up there about using fine micron filtration in this event was well put, that can be repeatedly exported rinsed in 35% then reused, that absolutely would help the physical removal angle mentioned above and i might take that for future thread use, well stated.

 

it might not be terribly debatable to list that many dinos cases seem impermeable to anything, anyone who claims to be able to fight them w decent success needs to be able to state the limitations of the approach, to me thats key when looking for snake oil salesmen, not just someone selling something. most approaches (uv peroxide alk boosing ph boosting blackouts et al) have been distilled by self reporting in web threads, like magnesium boosting has done for bryopsis and not unlike peroxide either. each method has posts where it didnt work.

 

Can someone simply distill shortly what is Carls take on dinoflagellates, the pending organism for this thread? theres so much non dino info to sift through i cant distill his recommended actions no any threads showing them applied from tanks that aren't his. those are ideal dinos references.

 

 

 

No, you dont have to have uber matched systems when using a few tetra pond sterilizers on a nano tank, i disagree that uv has to be all pro to be effective, most dont want to pay that much when a couple tetras oversized off amazon, or even better borrowed free by contacting local lfs/pond clubs/most keep them in the garage unused because it didnt cure thread algae in a ten thousand gallon pond etc

 

when i make a recommend, its because i think it w work best and that can be inserted/linked post follow up into the threads that already contain some oversized uv of crap quality use.

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It seems like Trigger's point is that an appropriate UVC device (meaning: appropriate wattage combined with appropriate dwell time and volume) can and will kill dinoflagellate cells and cysts in the water column. It seems like the general challenge to this assertion is what the minimal wattage is for effectiveness.

But you also need to combine the wattage with the dwell time, and also with the volume of the water at that wattage and at that dwell time to come up with meaningful and relevant numbers. Ok, I'm clearly the least-expert of the people involved in this discussion, but it is quite obvious that the answer is not simply wattage alone, and not simply dwell time alone. It has to be a combination of wattage, dwell time, and volume *together*. When you have an answer that comprises those three factors, then I suppose the question is whether or not your solution handles adequate turnover at that wattage/dwell/volume.

 

In my case, does an 8-watt Vecton, at approximately 264 GPH, provide enough turnover to make a difference in my IM Fusion 20? I have had it running for almost a week, now, and my tank shows greater water clarity and I am not noticing the formation of tiny, bubbly, dino strands after several days like I was noticing before the addition of the Vecton UV. So far, I deem the effects positive, but the proof comes, for me, in time.

 

For reference, my setup is like this: I am taking water from the overflow chamber in the back of the Fusion 20. it runs through a canister filter (so far without any filtration pad or media) and it is pumped directly into the Vecton UV. It is output to the return chamber of the Nuvo 20. I intend to add filter pads, rox carbon, purigen, and cuprisorb to the 3 chambers of the canister filter (soon) and that will have an impact on flow, which should help to make the UV unit a little bit more effective.

Thanks for the thread participation. I'm enjoying and learning. This information will surely help other people, too.

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