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sump scrubber or refugium or none? plz help


MadReefer13

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MadReefer13

i have a 20 gallon lon thats coming on its year mark.ive been thinking of adding a sump ,fuge,or algae scrubber.i have a spare ten gallon ima use would this be wise and is ten a good size? also what one is better from the three> and how to setup? never set any filter up in my three years of reefing :scarry:

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Since you probably don't want to add any of these in your display, I'm guessing that you want an external sump. Do you plan on drilling your display tank? I kind of favor a skimmer and carbon/GFO reactor; but there is nothing wrong with either a macro algae refugium or algae scrubber. It's a matter of personal preference and objectives.

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MadReefer13

Since you probably don't want to add any of these in your display, I'm guessing that you want an external sump. Do you plan on drilling your display tank? I kind of favor a skimmer and carbon/GFO reactor; but there is nothing wrong with either a macro algae refugium or algae scrubber. It's a matter of personal preference and objectives.

ya I'm doing it in a spare 10 gallon tank I have. I was thinking a hob overflow I can't drill the tank its already up and going with tons of corals already grown on rock. So drilling wouldent work will it? Sorry just have never setup anything external.also thank you sea bass you have helped and answer about all questions I've asked on here.thanks for your help

I've really been looking at refugium because its gonna be a seen external tank..not going under my DT it will be about 1foot below and right beside the DT

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Personally, I think a skimmer would be more advantageous then a fuge in that size set up...However, you may be able to get away with both by using a hang on back skimmer...that will give you room to set up a fuge...just make sure you cover the skimmer input so you aren't sucking in macros if you go that route. Best of both worlds if you ask me.

 

edit:

Sorry, I just read over your post again and you weren't even asking about a skimmer. Lol. Sorry about that!!

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MadReefer13

Personally, I think a skimmer would be more advantageous then a fuge in that size set up...However, you may be able to get away with both by using a hang on back skimmer...that will give you room to set up a fuge...just make sure you cover the skimmer input so you aren't sucking in macros if you go that route. Best of both worlds if you ask me.

edit:

Sorry, I just read over your post again and you weren't even asking about a skimmer. Lol. Sorry about that!!

really anything is up right now a skimmer would be great. what I was thinking is making bubble traps on both side one for the return pump and other for the water coming in then the refugium in middle...so I could make one side big enough to hold a hob skimmer. Would this work and would the skimmer be in the part where water enters?

If needed I can make a sketch up if can't see what I'm thinking

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I was thinking a hob overflow I can't drill the tank its already up and going with tons of corals already grown on rock. So drilling wouldn't work will it?

Drilling a tank with water in it has been done before, but it's not recommended (as a cracked tank would be devastating). It's especially dangerous with a thin glass tank (like a 20L).

 

A 20L is $20 during the PETCO $1 sale. I'd buy another 20L tank (maybe even a 29 gallon), drill it, get all the plumbing you need, then do a tank transfer (setting up the new drilled tank).

 

HOB overflows fail more often than drilled overflows. However, some HOBs are better than others.

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Hey I say go for it... Once set up is done sumps are great. Gives you room for all your equipment, many more options for running skimmers/media reactors, scrubbers, refugiums, etc... I like seabasses idea to just buy another $20 tank. You'll have more flexibility to do what you want. Alternatively go for a bigger tank and use your current 20l as a sump.

 

I agree that what you do in a sump is mostly preference. Being that it's your first sump you probably won't get everything you want in it. But at the same time don't half-ass it. You're going to have to put some $$ into it so you might as well try to get the best set up you can. A good start would be to think about/research the objectives you want to accomplish with a sump and then create a post with your best design and ask for feedback on it.

 

A skimmer/refugium combo is really popular because it lets you use a bigger skimmer, and refugiums are helpful for reducing nutrients like nitrates and phosphates by growing algae and then removing the algae. It also offers a great place to cultivate pods, deal with some situations like temp. frag placement, recovery spot for an injured fish, place to put more rock for biological filtration so you don't need so much in the display tank, etc... The list goes on... Since your proposed sump would be outside a cabinet it might look cool to do a few mangroves too ;)

 

An ATS (algae turf scrubber) is a more specialized piece of equipment for extreme nutrient reduction. The size you buy is dependent on how much waste is in your tank and how much you feed. They can be extremely effective but need the right conditions (a nutrient rich system). If you want to have a lot of fish and feed them like crazy an ATS probably isn't a bad idea but as I'm in the process of researching they do require a bit of fine tuning and regular maintenance. Think of it like you're maintaining a fish tank but you're also trying to grow algae.

 

Myself personally I ran a skimmer and a fuge, but the fuge was ugly (and it's not in a cabinet) so I'm converting it to a partial fuge with extra rock and such, but no macros. Instead I'll also be adding a DIY scrubber.

 

On a side note here is some discussion on the eshoppes overflow. It has a unique system of baffles that prevents air from being sucked in when the pump is turned off.

http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/359309-diy-10-gallon-refugium-sump/

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MadReefer13

What size would I use on that overflow just the smallest nano one ..also what pump for return?

Hey I say go for it... Once set up is done sumps are great. Gives you room for all your equipment, many more options for running skimmers/media reactors, scrubbers, refugiums, etc... I like seabasses idea to just buy another $20 tank. You'll have more flexibility to do what you want. Alternatively go for a bigger tank and use your current 20l as a sump.

 

I agree that what you do in a sump is mostly preference. Being that it's your first sump you probably won't get everything you want in it. But at the same time don't half-ass it. You're going to have to put some $$ into it so you might as well try to get the best set up you can. A good start would be to think about/research the objectives you want to accomplish with a sump and then create a post with your best design and ask for feedback on it.

 

A skimmer/refugium combo is really popular because it lets you use a bigger skimmer, and refugiums are helpful for reducing nutrients like nitrates and phosphates by growing algae and then removing the algae. It also offers a great place to cultivate pods, deal with some situations like temp. frag placement, recovery spot for an injured fish, place to put more rock for biological filtration so you don't need so much in the display tank, etc... The list goes on... Since your proposed sump would be outside a cabinet it might look cool to do a few mangroves too ;)

 

An ATS (algae turf scrubber) is a more specialized piece of equipment for extreme nutrient reduction. The size you buy is dependent on how much waste is in your tank and how much you feed. They can be extremely effective but need the right conditions (a nutrient rich system). If you want to have a lot of fish and feed them like crazy an ATS probably isn't a bad idea but as I'm in the process of researching they do require a bit of fine tuning and regular maintenance. Think of it like you're maintaining a fish tank but you're also trying to grow algae.

 

Myself personally I ran a skimmer and a fuge, but the fuge was ugly (and it's not in a cabinet) so I'm converting it to a partial fuge with extra rock and such, but no macros. Instead I'll also be adding a DIY scrubber.

 

On a side note here is some discussion on the eshoppes overflow. It has a unique system of baffles that prevents air from being sucked in when the pump is turned off.

http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/359309-diy-10-gallon-refugium-sump/

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The PFNano (the one in the link) is rated up to 20g and has 3/4" bulkheads. The PF300 is bigger but rated for 30 to 75g and uses 1" bulkheads.

 

http://www.eshopps.com/products/overflowboxes/pf300/

 

The return pump sizing depends on a few factors. I'm assuming you have enough flow in your tank using circulation pumps. If that's the case all you need is water flowing through the sump. IMO unless you have more than 3' or so of head (the height of the tube going from the pump to the display tank) you would be fine with a pump with a rating of 250-350gph. Take out about 100gph for head loss and you're left with 7-10x turnover. If you want to go with a larger return pump you could stick a valve on the output and dial it in to exactly what you want.

 

Good luck.

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MadReefer13

The PFNano (the one in the link) is rated up to 20g and has 3/4" bulkheads. The PF300 is bigger but rated for 30 to 75g and uses 1" bulkheads.

 

http://www.eshopps.com/products/overflowboxes/pf300/

 

The return pump sizing depends on a few factors. I'm assuming you have enough flow in your tank using circulation pumps. If that's the case all you need is water flowing through the sump. IMO unless you have more than 3' or so of head (the height of the tube going from the pump to the display tank) you would be fine with a pump with a rating of 250-350gph. Take out about 100gph for head loss and you're left with 7-10x turnover. If you want to go with a larger return pump you could stick a valve on the output and dial it in to exactly what you want.

 

Good luck.

47_a_sump2_2.jpgfound this will this be good

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That sump design is fine, just be sure that if you decide to run a skimmer that you make sure it will fit in the drain chamber.

 

Also I think it's important to maximize the return pump chamber - because as water evaporates in your tank the water level in that chamber will go down. If it goes too far down the pump will suck in air. In that design the final chamber holds 2 gallons, with a 10-12" water level. Considering the pump is 4-5" tall you really only have 1 gallon of evaporation. On my 40 breeder I add more than 1g per day to compensate for evaporation. Giving that chamber another few inches would help a lot. Alternatively you could install an ATO (auto top off) that will keep the water level constant.

 

I think the amazon description isn't correct, according to the eshoppes website its good for 20 gallons. Of course they don't list a flow rate so "tank size" is irrelevant. I can have 500gph flowing through a 10g just as easily as a 50g. Just don't get a pump that will overpower the overflow and you're set. That pump would probably be fine - plus it looks like it comes with a ball valve flow restrictor. The 1100 would probably be fine too, again as long as the distance (vertical) between the pump and the top of your display tank is around 3' or less.

 

Take your time, do a little more research. Find some example sumps you like and don't forget to think about the other things, like the kinds of hoses and fittings you'll need, etc...

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will just getting a ac110 or a hob fuge be better then plumbing in a fge on this lil tank?

Haha totally depends on what you want to do with the sump... If you want to get a skimmer or hide equipment a sump will work better. But an AC70/110 with an intank media basket is also quite useful if you just want to add chemical filtration like carbon/GFO or modify it into a place to grow macroalgae like chaeto.

 

Totally up to you... One solutions isn't necessarily better than another, it's more about what works best for you goals and objectives for the tank.

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MadReefer13

Looking for somthing to take things out of water.I just started adding fish again after long battle with. Ich so wanna have the export now another thing I've been thinking is adding one the hog hang on algae scrubber

Haha totally depends on what you want to do with the sump... If you want to get a skimmer or hide equipment a sump will work better. But an AC70/110 with an intank media basket is also quite useful if you just want to add chemical filtration like carbon/GFO or modify it into a place to grow macroalgae like chaeto.

 

Totally up to you... One solutions isn't necessarily better than another, it's more about what works best for you goals and objectives for the tank.

So over the place right now but I want to make right step I've never use filter on any tank yet in my four years

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Wow you've never used a filter? Like not even an HOB power filter?

 

On a 10g I think a filter would be very beneficial. It will allow you to add some mechanical filtration like filter floss that helps a ton with keeping nutrients low as long as you change it out frequently. It also allows you to add chemical filtration like activated carbon, GFO, chemiputre, etc.... These things, while not essential will definitely help in maintaining great water quality in addition to water changes.

 

If I were in your shoes I would consider how long I'll keep this tank. If you think you might want a bigger/different tank in the next year or so I would consider an HOB aquaclear filter with a media basket (http://shop.mediabaskets.com/AquaClear-110-Media-Basket-AC110MR.htm). This would allow you to get your heater out of the tank, and the media basket is configurable so if you don't want to run chemical filtration you can operate a small refugium there or grow macroalgae.

 

If you think you might keep this one long term then I think a sump makes more sense. You have a ton of flexibility with a sump. If a year down you decide to run a skimmer you can. I also really like using a sump to do water changes in because it's a lot easier not to disturb the display tank. Same goes for topping off.. If you don't use an ATO you may find yourself having to dump a gallon of FW into the display tank without a sump and that's a pain. Obviously you could add smaller amounts over time but that's even more of a pain. With a sump you can give the new water a little bit of time to mix with the tank water first. Also you would have a much larger refugium, which you could cultivate pods and other things in without having to deal with your fish eating them all. You can grow more macroalgae there too or even mangroves.

 

Regarding the HOG ATS, it looks like a nice unit. There's always a debate on which is better the waterfall style or upflow style scrubbers. Bottom line seems to be they both grow algae. The scrubber does add some maintenance to the tank, but as far as nutrient export goes an ATS with a mat of turf algae is more efficient than a ball of macro algae. Plus with macro algae you can run the risk that it goes sexual with certain species.

 

So finally I will say that after setting up a sumped system on my own tank I don't think I would do it any other way going forward, but at the same time you can accomplish the same thing with an HOB or an AIO tank if you're clever about it.

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MadReefer13

The tank is a 20 long.and I'm gonna be keeping tank forawhile but never know if might move so tank may move also so either thinking a ac70or 110 or the hog ats but not sure what be best outta them thinking one the ac with some floss and a some fuge made outa it so I can get some pods and some filtration or just skip the fuge and use chemical filtration?

Wow you've never used a filter? Like not even an HOB power filter?

 

On a 10g I think a filter would be very beneficial. It will allow you to add some mechanical filtration like filter floss that helps a ton with keeping nutrients low as long as you change it out frequently. It also allows you to add chemical filtration like activated carbon, GFO, chemiputre, etc.... These things, while not essential will definitely help in maintaining great water quality in addition to water changes.

 

If I were in your shoes I would consider how long I'll keep this tank. If you think you might want a bigger/different tank in the next year or so I would consider an HOB aquaclear filter with a media basket (http://shop.mediabaskets.com/AquaClear-110-Media-Basket-AC110MR.htm). This would allow you to get your heater out of the tank, and the media basket is configurable so if you don't want to run chemical filtration you can operate a small refugium there or grow macroalgae.

 

If you think you might keep this one long term then I think a sump makes more sense. You have a ton of flexibility with a sump. If a year down you decide to run a skimmer you can. I also really like using a sump to do water changes in because it's a lot easier not to disturb the display tank. Same goes for topping off.. If you don't use an ATO you may find yourself having to dump a gallon of FW into the display tank without a sump and that's a pain. Obviously you could add smaller amounts over time but that's even more of a pain. With a sump you can give the new water a little bit of time to mix with the tank water first. Also you would have a much larger refugium, which you could cultivate pods and other things in without having to deal with your fish eating them all. You can grow more macroalgae there too or even mangroves.

 

Regarding the HOG ATS, it looks like a nice unit. There's always a debate on which is better the waterfall style or upflow style scrubbers. Bottom line seems to be they both grow algae. The scrubber does add some maintenance to the tank, but as far as nutrient export goes an ATS with a mat of turf algae is more efficient than a ball of macro algae. Plus with macro algae you can run the risk that it goes sexual with certain species.

 

So finally I will say that after setting up a sumped system on my own tank I don't think I would do it any other way going forward, but at the same time you can accomplish the same thing with an HOB or an AIO tank if you're clever about it.

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