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Need to Dose? (And Why This Cyano Outbreak?)


LebaneseDlight

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LebaneseDlight

My 20 gallon is about 3 months old. I just got my first frags a few weeks ago. About 10 small SPS frags. I've been testing dKH (ALWAYS in the 7s - currently 7.8) and PH (always 8.1-8.3). Salinity is 1.026 (ATO). Phosphates have been at .02 just since prior to the frags (two weeks ago). But prior to the frags, my Phosphates were high (.4) and I've been using Phosban and Purigen. They've been .02 for the last two weeks.

 

Today I tested Calcium (420) and Mag (1400) for the first time. I do a 20% weekly water change Brightwell NeoMarine. It's been a week since my last water change. Hence, it doesn't seem I need to dose anything. My dKH and PH have been very stable (although I feel my dKH should be higher, shouldn't it?) and my Ca is 420 right before a water change. Am I correct in this assumption?

 

My other issue is I'm having a Cyano bloom on my sand bed. It's been going on for a week. I have two RW-4s running at 50%, and as is, have some sand being blown as I'm trying to make sure water is flowing to the sand.

 

Could this Cyano outbreak be the residual affect from my previous high Phosphates? Maybe they just need time to eat up any residuals? Or maybe it's because my tank is new (3 months old)?

 

My photoperiod is 11 hours. Could this be the culprit?

 

I have a good CUC and I feed frozen mysis (which is rinse) every other day (a quarter of a cube), use RODI (currently 0 TDS, but was not 0 TDS due to a set up mistake I had made - hence my high phosphates earlier). I also have been feeding Coral Frenzy (spot feeding, and verrrry small amount) 3x a week.

 

I have a protein skimmer with good skimmate. I just bought some filter floss. I'm not running carbon (but bought some chemi pure elite, waiting for it to arrive).

 

Sorry for the drawn out message.

 

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LebaneseDlight

Thank you, it feels reassuring to hear it :) Just did my 20% WC and syphoned it all out.

 

Do you think I should be dosing 2 part even though Calcium is 420-440 and dKH in the 7? I bought a BRS two part dosing pumps and 2 part - just don't know when to start dosing. My Ca seems fine but not sure why my dKH is always <8. Must be my salt mix is low on it.

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LebaneseDlight

Should I run some ChemiClean or let the Cyano run its course? It was gone this morning after the WC, but back with a vengeance this afternoon.

 

And any suggestions about dosing to get my dKH up? With 2-part, do you have to dose equal amounts (I don't need Ca) or just the element you're deficient with?

I'm thinking of setting my automated doser on for a few minutes throughout the evening to try and keep PH swings minimal. I'm only assuming I'm having PH swings at night (haven't really thought of testing after sundown until now and don't have a controller yet).

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I´m following this one... In the same boat atm.

Need to figure out if i really need to dose or not.

Planing to add SPS to my new tank.

Some say that i need to buy a doser and dose, if i have pure SPS in a 20 gallon tank.

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cruzH20polo

Awesome write up metrokat!

 

as to your cyano outbreak:

 

if you had a spike in phosphate (inorganic P) this gets converted in biomass by various microbes. As microbes produce metabolite waste this contributes to your organic waste load. So the once inorganic P that entered your system has now been converted to organic P. Cyanobacteria are very good at using organic P (they have enzyemes that specifically break apart the organic P), also many cyanos fix nitrogen gas. So even if you have low or no NO2/NO3, they can still produce their own ammonia though that process.

 

So in a nutshell - they are chewing on organic P that is left over from your inorganic P spike. eventually they will starve themselves out as long as you keep your general phosphorus level down

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Awesome write up metrokat!

 

as to your cyano outbreak:

 

if you had a spike in phosphate (inorganic P) this gets converted in biomass by various microbes. As microbes produce metabolite waste this contributes to your organic waste load. So the once inorganic P that entered your system has now been converted to organic P. Cyanobacteria are very good at using organic P (they have enzyemes that specifically break apart the organic P), also many cyanos fix nitrogen gas. So even if you have low or no NO2/NO3, they can still produce their own ammonia though that process.

 

So in a nutshell - they are chewing on organic P that is left over from your inorganic P spike. eventually they will starve themselves out as long as you keep your general phosphorus level down

Like to add that cyanobacteria is thought to be an over population on one kind of bacteria. And a possible way to outcompete it is adding another source till it multiplies - such as microbackter7, prodibio, microbelift, dr tims. etc.

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cruzH20polo

Like to add that cyanobacteria is thought to be an over population on one kind of bacteria. And a possible way to outcompete it is adding another source till it multiplies - such as microbackter7, prodibio, microbelift, dr tims. etc.

true true!

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LebaneseDlight

THANK YOU SO MUCH Kat and Cruz. I have microbacter7 and dosed a capful last night. So I think the takeaway is not to do Boyd Chemiclean, just let it starve (my regular weekly 20% WC should help) and keep dosing microbacter7 (it can't hurt).

 

I will read up more on the Two Part dosing - but I'm not going to dose anything until I have a handle on it.

 

Just bought a Minimax, that should make my Phosphates better regulated and I'm running Carbon now.

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LebaneseDlight

Arce and I wrote part 2 of the article series SPS for Beginners. Part 2 deals with dosing. Marine Depot should be posting it today/tomorrow. Hopefully it will help answer some of your questions.

 

In the meantime here is part 1

http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/358172-on-the-blog-filter-media-guide-sps-for-beginners-and-more/

 

Kat - as I anxiously wait for part 2, can someone tell me: is two part supposed to be dosed in equal amounts? If my dKH is 7.5 and Ca is 440, seems like I should just dose Alk and not Ca. But I've been reading that they should be dosed in equal amounts.

 

Also, with my automated dosers, should I use the Alk at night (to offset PH swings after lights out) and Ca during the day?

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Kat - as I anxiously wait for part 2, can someone tell me: is two part supposed to be dosed in equal amounts? If my dKH is 7.5 and Ca is 440, seems like I should just dose Alk and not Ca. But I've been reading that they should be dosed in equal amounts.

 

Also, with my automated dosers, should I use the Alk at night (to offset PH swings after lights out) and Ca during the day?

I dose 24/7.

 

Article 2 on dosing just got published, take a look on how to do it, be happy to answer Qs

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LebaneseDlight

Yup. Answers all my main questions :D " As your corals go through the process of calcification they will use the same amount of alkalinity as calcium therefore when dosing 2-part you should be dosing equal, if not close to equal, parts of each solution."

 

So I just did a full test panel. I found my Nitrates at 5ppm. I haven't tested for Nitrates since my initial cycle. Is 5 ppm acceptable for SPS? Can this be causing the Cyano?

 

​Perhaps I should consider a fuge after all.... And I need to get a Hanna Phosphate checker. This Red Sea POS is so hard to read. What shade of beige are my Phosphates :huh: ?

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Yup. Answers all my main questions :D " As your corals go through the process of calcification they will use the same amount of alkalinity as calcium therefore when dosing 2-part you should be dosing equal, if not close to equal, parts of each solution."

 

So I just did a full test panel. I found my Nitrates at 5ppm. I haven't tested for Nitrates since my initial cycle. Is 5 ppm acceptable for SPS? Can this be causing the Cyano?

 

​Perhaps I should consider a fuge after all.... And I need to get a Hanna Phosphate checker. This Red Sea POS is so hard to read. What shade of beige are my Phosphates :huh: ?

5ppm Nitrates are right on the money IMO. Nitrates aren't evil.

 

Hi Kat - how are your dosers set up? Do they dose equal parts at the same time, or do you do Ca during the day and Alk at night?

My dosers dose 24/7 as I mentioned earlier. One doser kicks on on the hour and at half past, the other comes on at 15 past the hour and 45 past.

 

The amount I dose is somewhat equal. My alk doser doses less than the calcium doser in a very recent calculation so it doses for about 8-9 seconds more each time than the calcium.

 

I adjust this dosing whenever testing my parameters reveals a significant change from the levels i want. They may not be precisely equal but they are almost equal.

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  • 2 weeks later...
LebaneseDlight

So here we go... After dosing about 4ml daily of 2-Part for the week, I checked Alk and Ca today and found that Alk had risen from ~7.5 to 10 and Ca had dropped from 420 to 400. I imagine this says I'm overdosing. I checked my new salt and it's dHK 7.5 and Ca 420. My Mag is 1500+. I wonder why so high? Again, my thought is overdosing (and the Kent Nano 2 Part has MG in part 1).

 

Should I do anything? I'd doing a water change today so that's going to help. This is what I think I should do based on reading: just wait for the Alk to go down on its own and then start dosing equal parts of 2 part (but less than I was before).

 

(on a positive note, I have no more Cyano :D The passing of time and my fighting conch has done a great job).

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  • 2 weeks later...
LebaneseDlight

My tank seems to be eating Ca only. I don't get it. I tested and my Ca was 380 and dKH 8.4. My Mg is high (1500+), as I'm using Kent Nano A/B and A has Mg in it. My salt (Neomarine) is also high on Mg. I think the problem is my salt which is low on dKH (7.5) and Ca (412). I want to switch to RSCP but afraid to do so as RSCP seems to be so high on dKH and my salt right now is so low...

 

Should I keep adding more part A and less part B?

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RSCP is very high in dKH from what they advertise. Generally the rule of thumb in dosing 2 part is that they're dosed in equal parts. The kicker here is they have to be mixed to the correct concentration, or molarity. Bulk reef supply has great instructions on how to mix their dry 2 part chemicals to where you'll dose them in equal parts, and alot of the commercial pre-mixed liquid 2 part additives are mixed as such as well. I like using the bulk reef supply stuff because its very clear on how to use it and the purity is very high.

 

Generally speaking, you're only going to dose what you test for, and you'll only dose it if your tests indicate there's a need. All of the organisms in our tanks that pull Ca and CO3 ions out of the water to form CaCO3 (coraline algae, tube and feather duster worms, snails, crabs, shrimp, corals for skeletons, fish for their own bones, ect) will pull the separate ions in equal amounts. So, if the tank is humming along and nothing funny is happening, your dKH (CO3) and calcium should be depleted at the same rate.

 

Something else to keep in mind. Alkalinity titration tests are essentially PH reducing tests. They dont directly measure CO3 in the water. They measure how much reagent it takes to reduce the sample water PH down to a general endpoint (usually betwen a PH of 4-5ish). The "alkalinity" is derived from that number and is generally correllated to how much CO3 is in the water. The problem here is PH is a fluid value (as in always moving). It has a nice up and down drift through the photoperiod. So if you test your alk when the PH is at its lowest point, you'll have a low alk reading, and if you test it when its at its highest point, you'll have a high reading, but the actual CO3 content in the water has not changed. Alk tests can be misleading in that aspect if you dont make sure to at least be in the same PH neighborhood every time you test it.

 

I apologize if this is too long winded, or someone correct me if I'm mixing up the concepts here. It's just important to note because if you're not testing alk consistently, it may NOT be staying the same and it may be fluctuating with the calcium. Or you could have some abiotic precipitation going on and the calcium is being depleted by something NOT related to coral/algae/invert growth.

 

I'd keep testing on a regular basis and stick with the "only dose what you need to" mantra, and eventually in time the numbers will start moving in sync with each other. As far as the cyano goes? Like others have mentioned, its just part of the routine of a new tank. There are ways to minimize it before you set up (like acid dipping your rock before cycling it), but most new tanks will have a cyano plague at some point in the first year. I've only met a handful of reefers who have gotten away with having no nuisance algae issues during their first year in. Usually those who don't have any form of algae at all will also have pitiful coral growth and color. Algae uptake waste in the water faster than corals do, but corals still use those same things as well to feed the symbiotic algae in their tissues.

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LebaneseDlight

Thank you for your response. It's not long winded.

 

My dKH seems to stay constant (before I was dosing, always staying at 7-7.5). My Ca has been consistently low. The Neomarine salt says it mixes to 413 with salinity 1.025. When I test my Ca, it's always under 400. Around 370-400. I keep dosing equal parts of 2 part, but only my dKH is getting higher. Ca does get higher but disproportionately so.

 

Currently, I've been dosing 2-3 ml a day of 2 part. My dKH has gone from 7 to 10.5 (over the course of a week). However, Ca has only gone from 370 to 390-400 tops. I don't want to keep dosing and getting my dKH higher and higher only to get Ca to 420.

 

This leads me to think my salt is inadequate. I don't know what to do. I've tried just dosing Part A, but as you and others have said, it has be dosed in equal parts. Again, Mg isn;t the issue as it's consistently over 1400.


From what I'm reading, I just need to find a sweet spot in my params, and that sweet spot is different for everyone. Maybe my sweet spot is 10 dKH and 400 Ca.

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I follow. Well in this case I'd say it would be more beneficial to follow the dose what you need rule OVER the dose in equal parts rule and just expect them to come in line eventually. When dealing with sps, those alk swings can be catastrophic, but calcium has a much wider margin of error.

 

I did an experiment once with some sample saltwater I had mixing at 10 dKH and 400 ppm calcium with 1450 ppm mg. I tried to drop alk via a calcium overdose as should work on paper and it didn't. I ended up with 10dkh water and 700 ppm calcium swirling in a bucket for a week before I tossed it. I'd cease alk dosing and let it naturally fall back to 7.5 and try to keep the calcium elevated.

 

What's your dosing method? Pumps or hand dosed?

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LebaneseDlight

I have a two part dosing pump (BRS) but I'm just testing daily at this point and adjusting my dosing so that I don't increase dKH by more than .5-.7 a day. Once I can figure out what's my ideal param, then how much dKH I'm using up a day, I will program the dosers (just a manual timer) and set them on auto. Next month I will purchase a controller and that should help me at least see my PH swings.

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LebaneseDlight

...but, but, how are your corals doing? Cyano aside (on such a new tank), your parameters are not that out of whack.

 

Diatoms and Cyano have been 100% exhausted. Totally clean! My phosphates are stablized at .02-.03. I bought a fighting conch and cant tell you how much I love that thing. I thought due to it's size I wouldn't keep it, but it stays on the sand bed (and I have plenty of sand bed) and cleans better than any CUC I've ever had.

 

My corals look happy and they have good PE. 1.5 months and no STN/RTN (one monti did STN briefly due to a quick drop of Phosphates initially, but I superglued that corner and it's been a month and no more STN). Colors are great on all the SPS frags. But I've had minimal growth. That's the problem!

 

I think I have a plan. In this last few days, when I keep the dKH at 10.5, it drops to 9.5 by the next 24 hours. 2 ml of 2 Part gets it back up to 10.5. So it seems that should be my dose. I'm going to run the dosers for two minutes total per day and that should keep Ca at 400 and dKH at 10.5.

 

I think I've been over worrying, but I feel I learned more about reef chemistry in the last month than I previously did in 3-4 years of having a LPS/softies tank :D

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