No cycle?

[iceshade]

So, my tank is finally set up, 20 gallon H, Haiti cured live rock, live sand, etc.

 

Today is the 4th day, tested twice and everything reads 0, (api master kit)

 

On the reef facebook group everyone keeps saying nothing will happen until I add a raw shrimp to start the cycle. I did a Google search and lots of threads on here came up, and it seems most people say do not bother with shrimp or bottles ammonia, and just wait 2 or 3 weeks and if everything still reads 0 then start adding live stock bit by bit.

 

So what gives? Do I not bother with a raw shrimp, bio spira, and just leave the tank while doing top offs and that's it?

 

The first day I had chemi-pure elite and matrix in the filter. But took it out and now there is only Floss in there.

[brandon429]

excellent question

 

i never cycle any of my reefs, and thats a lot of micro reefs. i skip

 

its optional to crud up your tank with shrimp organics, which is better reserved for dry cycling.

 

what you are doing is xferring live things among tanks, and we've built an armada of pico reefs over the years here by doing just that. I have ffriends right now in the pico forum who routinely pick up their entire rock structure and move it to a brand new tank...clams, sps, fish, lps, all, and nothing cycles. coming home from a pet store is no different, if you move the stuff right.

 

i can easily prevent live rock from dying 100% of attempts.

 

seems you may have as well.

 

the only surprise here mind boggling me is that your api ammonia kit shows zero, hold on to that one its gold.

anyone who recommends putting a dead shrimp in a tank full of live rock is simply lobbing options, live rock that has coralline on it, and living creatures, and fanworms etc dont want to be exposed to ammonia, thats all backwards.

 

 

a cog pin in the discussion is when someone says they have live rock but what they did was pick grey, devoid rock that came from underwater. contrast that to a bin of real live rock, can't be mistaken so if we really have live rock you are as good today as you will be on day 5000x

 

if you indeed put in live rock with living verifiable animals and plants on it, and live sand, you need to get to reefing lightly. cycles and ammonia are the most predictable, most rock solid behaving items in all of reefdom. you can treat live rock in such a way that it never dies when xferring. we may read of uncertainty, buts thats from nonassemblers of armadas cataloged online...they are just having problems with 1 tanks interpretation and are posting that.

when we say its possible to command a cycle and either skip it, delay it, or start it from scratch we mean just that with no gray area in between, clear as day.

 

post pics, lets see how much of this pans out we can dissect them in detail.

[iceshade]

Hmm interesting. My rock doesn't seem to have much life on it, but it's apparently 100% cured.

 

Should I give it another week or 2?

[brandon429]

post pics

 

 

there is no 1 or 2 week guess, there's an exact date

based on pics.

 

if the live rock was gray and lifeless then you must drive the ammonia to 3ish ppm and see if it comes down within 24 hrs to know. if the pics can show any signs of micro life, they want the reef to run without an ammonia spike.

 

 

its possible for live rock that a pet store recently submerged a few mos ago or several weeks ago to truly have bacteria and be colorless, especially if they drive the cycle w dr tims and raw ammonia. bacteria establishment can outpace benthic growth in that condition.

 

 

but in the condition of having live coralline on the rocks, we are good to go houston as long as the rock was treated decently on the way home. we look for clues there by finding open micro fanworms on the rock todays pics, if those are open you are further proven good as they'd be dead alternatively and wont open in poor water.

[jamescstein]

It really depends on how your live rock was treated before you got it.

 

Did you buy it from an LFS? Did they just get it or has it been in their system for a week or so?

Did you have it shipped to you from Haiti or elsewhere?

 

Liverock properly handled like brandon said usually won't 'cycle'. But if it sat exposed to air for a a couple of hours, or was shipped dry (or even just covered with a wet towel) you will have die off and therefore a 'cycle'.

 

Typically the deli shrimp cycle thing is for dead rock that you got completely dry and devoid of live.

[iceshade]

Hmm I'm on my phone right now can't post pics. There is no algae anywhere, rock doesn't really have color except for a bit of green on one rock. And some red on another. At the LFS the rock was kept in bins under spray bars.

 

Also it's been at the LFS for a while they said, I got it locally.

[lkoechle]

Its up to you if you want to risk it, personally I always add ammonia just in case. I would rather wait awhile and be sure then lose a fish on a guess. I usually start from dry rock but in my pico I started with everything live and still made sure it cycled.

[brandon429]

agreed. Live rock is not doubtful. .. since we aren't sure let's do 3ppm ammonia test using correct ammonia, not variable shrimp, Google ammonia cycling for details

[markalot]

Hmm I'm on my phone right now can't post pics. There is no algae anywhere, rock doesn't really have color except for a bit of green on one rock. And some red on another. At the LFS the rock was kept in bins under spray bars.

 

Also it's been at the LFS for a while they said, I got it locally.

 

Wait wait wait.

 

Under spray bars and they got it locally, in Canada? I don't think they understood what you were asking. Cured live rock is under water, not under spray bars.

 

Anyway questions like this are usually a result of not understanding what needs to happen, so let me run that by you to see if it makes any sense.

 

By "cycling" a tank the goal is to get bacteria to colonize something that will consume ammonia and nitrites. Bacteria #1 eats ammonia and produces nitrites, Bacteria #2 eats nitrites and produces nitrates.

 

In a reef tank it has been found that the best place to host this bacteria is on suitable rock and the sandbed (optional).

 

So, if you have no ammonia source then there will be no bacteria because like everything else bacteria needs food or it dies. Cured live rock is full of critters and already has a good population of the bacteria needed to complete the cycle. The critters produce a low level of ammonia but it's enough to keep a small bacterial population alive. You add a single fish, a small on preferably, and this fish will add more ammonia which in turn will cause the bacteria population to increase to handle the load.

 

If you add a fish with no bacteria present the ammonia will build up and the fish will become stressed usually die.

 

I prefer to start with uncured live rock because it provides some critters and has enough dieoff on it to provide an elevated ammonia source to kick start the process. Others like to start with dead rock and add pure ammonia to start the process. Up to you.

[lkoechle]

 

Wait wait wait.

 

Under spray bars and they got it locally, in Canada? I don't think they understood what you were asking. Cured live rock is under water, not under spray bars.

 

Anyway questions like this are usually a result of not understanding what needs to happen, so let me run that by you to see if it makes any sense.

 

By "cycling" a tank the goal is to get bacteria to colonize something that will consume ammonia and nitrites. Bacteria #1 eats ammonia and produces nitrites, Bacteria #2 eats nitrites and produces nitrates.

 

In a reef tank it has been found that the best place to host this bacteria is on suitable rock and the sandbed (optional).

 

So, if you have no ammonia source then there will be no bacteria because like everything else bacteria needs food or it dies. Cured live rock is full of critters and already has a good population of the bacteria needed to complete the cycle. The critters produce a low level of ammonia but it's enough to keep a small bacterial population alive. You add a single fish, a small on preferably, and this fish will add more ammonia which in turn will cause the bacteria population to increase to handle the load.

 

If you add a fish with no bacteria present the ammonia will build up and the fish will become stressed usually die.

 

I prefer to start with uncured live rock because it provides some critters and has enough dieoff on it to provide an elevated ammonia source to kick start the process. Others like to start with dead rock and add pure ammonia to start the process. Up to you.

 

by "local", I think he meant the liverock wasn't shipped so he is expecting it to be live and not a lot of die off.

[brandon429]

helpful comparison pics

 

questionably live

https://imageshack.com/i/idkMDxVjj

 

ready to roll unquestionably live has built all my reefs

https://imageshack.com/i/f0603iylj

 

Good call on shipping I'd forgot to ask if from pet store

[lkoechle]

helpful comparison pics

 

questionably live

https://imageshack.com/i/idkMDxVjj

 

ready to roll unquestionably live has built all my reefs

https://imageshack.com/i/f0603iylj

Not to be a negative nancy, but that doesn't mean its live. We have "real reef rock" in the world now, aka "painted rock and we're going to charge you an arm and a leg"

[brandon429]

not my lfs, they won't cheat.

 

its something to consider if dealing with cheats tho... trying to sub without telling would be uncool.

 

additionally, benthic establishment would count even for painted rock, this rock has the fanworms and sponges and pods and worms in the bin flooring, tons of cross verifiers from good pics

painted is just painted, nicely

 

this real reef rock appears to be maricultured, not painted, so it would work as well for quick starts as long as it has curing time post shipping. I too have read about the painted stuff.... This was maricultured so it may be diff company

 

http://realreefrock.com/about

[iceshade]

ok guys i have a ic from just now, also it's live rock, from my local lfs, they had it a while, under spray bars.

 

not sure about much life in it since it wasn't submerged in water but they called it cured. yeah locally i have yet to see much color on any rocks, so i'm guessing i need to buy bio spira or something to get the cycle rolling and throw a raw shrimp in? cause it seems everything is dead on this rock, there are dried up little things, although the color of the rocks in spots seems to be changing a tiny bit so far.

 

[lkoechle]

ok guys i have a ic from just now, also it's live rock, from my local lfs, they had it a while, under spray bars.

 

not sure about much life in it since it wasn't submerged in water but they called it cured. yeah locally i have yet to see much color on any rocks, so i'm guessing i need to buy bio spira or something to get the cycle rolling and throw a raw shrimp in? cause it seems everything is dead on this rock, there are dried up little things, although the color of the rocks in spots seems to be changing a tiny bit so far.

 

Lack of coraline doesn't mean it isn't live. Coraline is an algae.

 

 

not my lfs, they won't cheat.

 

its something to consider if dealing with cheats tho... trying to sub without telling would be uncool.

 

additionally, benthic establishment would count even for painted rock, this rock has the fanworms and sponges and pods and worms in the bin flooring, tons of cross verifiers from good pics

painted is just painted, nicely

real reef rock isn't a cheat. or at least the lfs that sell it don't intentionally try to cheat you. real reef rock is a brand name of rock. Except they don't have official signs, so the LFS has to write their own... I do think the company itself is incredibly shifty with that name and then painting the rock.

[ajmckay]

Hey Ice, check this thread.

 

http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/359513-fast-cycling-time-frame/

 

Just remember you need to see a progression. Getting all 0's for ammonia/nitrite/nitrate doesn't by itself indicate a cycled tank. You should get positive results for one or more of these parameters at some point. For example if you show 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite you should be able to at least test positive for nitrate. As nitrate is the least toxic of the 3 you want to make sure the nitrite are being broken down into nitrate.

 

Good luck.

[iceshade]

Hey Ice, check this thread.

 

http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/359513-fast-cycling-time-frame/

 

Just remember you need to see a progression. Getting all 0's for ammonia/nitrite/nitrate doesn't by itself indicate a cycled tank. You should get positive results for one or more of these parameters at some point. For example if you show 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite you should be able to at least test positive for nitrate. As nitrate is the least toxic of the 3 you want to make sure the nitrite are being broken down into nitrate.

 

Good luck.

well the first time i tested i did all 4 tests, but today i just did ammonia and nitrite, i added some flakes after the test on day 2 for fun but i guess flakes don't make a difference.

 

I'm reading everything i can it's hard to get straight answers, i'm not one of those guys that ordered live rock online with tons of life, and tons of color, although it seems some light green is coming in a bit.

 

but anyway, i have no clue if i should buy bio spira? a raw shrimp? based on my set up. also my sand is 20 pounds of live Bahamas oolite.

[brandon429]

You can use a shrimp or use bottled bac and cleaning ammonia

 

Based on pics this live rock comes from the gray bin

 

Take it back get some from the awesome bin pic above, if its not fake rock you are good to go

 

Just ask

 

Rarely will lfs lie boldfaced. Mine never will

 

If you want to add some on top of this base rock and still skip a cycle, you can. I'm 15 yrs into doing it and have never been cheated. Buy from the good obvious LR bin

 

Or just proceed in making yours as good, sometimes thats fun but not for me. Opinions vary lol

 

As it stands, treat your rock as not live. Any ammonia digestion abilities are conferred to the sand if it was wet packed...I'm assuming that as it was labeled live.

 

You simply have to spike your tankwide ammonia to 3ppm and see if it goes down to zero in 24 hours, leaving some nitrate you can see, in order to know. In a few weeks the system will do this if your gray rock had zero curing, but they've likely added some curing time before you bought. Looks like typical base rock from a base rock bin like my pic.

 

The part about finite time frames based on benthic growth ID still holds, for sure. Yours has none, so its assumed uncycled until a real digestion test verifies it.

 

Shopping for true curing off live rock by benthics is simply a way to reef quick. We can't paint on fanworm that extend, pods and worms down in the bottom of the holding bin, and more. They can fake coralline well.

 

If someone wants to take the time to convert gray rock into purple thats ok too. There is no guessing either way, for sure steps are avail. You can't discern anything so far without a registered spike and time frame back to zero. Use either shrimp or raw cleaning ammonia to get there based off searches about what kind of ammonia to use.

[iceshade]

hmm, well i'm not gonna bring it back thats for sure, looking at this rock close up you can tell it came from the ocean, it's not man made.

 

I just called my LFS and the girl said it's normal to not see anything for a week or 2, and that the die off takes time to jump start the ammonia.

 

i've been to 5 LFS in my city, and all of the rock looked the same, brown, some had slight color, but i rarely saw any color, but my main LFS where i go is the only one who just kept it under a spray bar not submerged.

[brandon429]

Lack of coraline doesn't mean it isn't live. Coraline is an algae.

 

 

 

real reef rock isn't a cheat. or at least the lfs that sell it don't intentionally try to cheat you. real reef rock is a brand name of rock. Except they don't have official signs, so the LFS has to write their own... I do think the company itself is incredibly shifty with that name and then painting the rock.

Lack of coraline doesn't mean it isn't live. Coraline is an algae.

 

 

 

real reef rock isn't a cheat. or at least the lfs that sell it don't intentionally try to cheat you. real reef rock is a brand name of rock. Except they don't have official signs, so the LFS has to write their own... I do think the company itself is incredibly shifty with that name and then painting the rock.

this sounds confusing, I thought your mention of it was that it was painted, not cured?

 

You positioned it as something negative a post ago?

hmm, well i'm not gonna bring it back thats for sure, looking at this rock close up you can tell it came from the ocean, it's not man made.

 

I just called my LFS and the girl said it's normal to not see anything for a week or 2, and that the die off takes time to jump start the ammonia.

 

i've been to 5 LFS in my city, and all of the rock looked the same, brown, some had slight color, but i rarely saw any color, but my main LFS where i go is the only one who just kept it under a spray bar not submerged.

what would be dying off

 

on the inside=more gray

 

if are meaning shrimp dieoff that makes sense, from a cycling shrimp.

 

if she means your rock is cured but with zero benthic growth living, that means it's cycled and awaiting normal reefing, to grow benthics.

 

Only an ammonia test at3-5 ppm can tell. All else is guess.

[iceshade]

brandon i don't get what you're saying, that this is dead, dry rock? i have seen color change since day 1, some light green, and a bit of red, just a few spots.

 

I might just get a raw shrimp and if i can find the 100ml bottle of bio spira (only 250ml so far i see) but she said to let it go naturally because there will be die off to start the cycle, but it takes time.

[lkoechle]

this sounds confusing, I thought your mention of it was that it was painted, not cured?

 

You positioned it as something negative a post ago?

what would be dying off

 

on the inside=more gray

 

if are meaning shrimp dieoff that makes sense, from a cycling shrimp.

 

if she means your rock is cured but with zero benthic growth living, that means it's cycled and awaiting normal reefing, to grow benthics.

 

Only an ammonia test at3-5 ppm can tell. All else is guess.

 

 

"real reef rock" is copyrighted brand name of a painted eco-rock that is supposedly live. I brought it up because of the photos you posted implied that live rock is purple. That's not always the case as "real reef rock" (the brand, see how it gets confusing and misleading?) is painted and does not contain live coraline algae. http://realreefrock.com/

 

I had purchased "real reef rock" thinking it was man-made rock that was live and covered with delightful coraline algae, only to discover later it is just painted rock kept in water. I have no idea if it was actually live or if the LFS had only gotten it the day before.

[brandon429]

That makes sense, but im saying if it had the red tube worms in the pic, and was maricultured, it wont be just painted it will have real animals on it.

 

the pics from that website show heavy live worm casings, with red crowns, the typical sabellids and assorteds we see on cured lr, it doesnt even mention painting I saw?

 

I still dont think its valid to think we are easily tricked by painted rock, coralline was never the totality of benthic verifiers it came along with others that we cant fake. being faked out doesnt apply much, nearly all of these threads are rocks from the two bins i pictured but yes I recall 2 or so using the fake stuff. one was this forum a few mos back

 

in this thread the prediction turned out to match one of the two bins above it wasnt fake, getting faked is rare. if a lfs will sell you cured live rock from a bin they just got in from shipping this morning that could be mid decay/thats a form of trickery thats rare

 

 

 

 

Iceshade

I agree its very tricky let me try to sum like this see what you think

 

live rock with coralline and other verifiers, is known ready to go. try to transport it wet back to home. i dont, but you should to lower loss variables. the live rock i showed above is often stacked in my trunk in the air, taken home with some easy corals, and stocked with no mini cycle

 

because live rock rarely mini cycles, its the old live sand that will do it

 

mini cycles from live rock are a huge myth, even from an occasional dying worm (worms die in established tanks all the time, not causing .25 ammonia as we may soon see here)

 

live rock that has benthics and even sponges is fantastically strong. since that statement may be hard to believe consider my own tank i leave totally drained for 30-40 mins at times while working on it, all animals exposed, or this guy who drains for 6 hours a day

 

 

http://reefbuilders.com/2010/10/19/simon-garratts-intertidal-reef-months/

 

his live rock is not magic, yours will do this. theirs will do this, but alas, api ammonia readings usually present a challenge (whole sep issue when trying to cycle with api we w soon see)

 

this is how nature works, live rock is very strong in fact, we use this knowledge to skip cycling and build reef tank that outlive others, its really reliable.

 

the picture from the good bin above applies to my first paragraph. move it home from the pet store=ready to reef

 

transfer it among tanks in your house (like a new reef each time) its ready to go, no cycle

 

transfer it to a buddy, he gets an instant reef. we have set up probably ten thousand tanks online using this technique its atomic predictable.

 

if you have gray rock devoid of life, they may well have it bacterially established you just cant tell off visual cues

 

you have to drive the tank to 3-4 ppm, either by shrimps decaying or straight raw ammonia to get things done, and if the ammonia registers zero in 24 hours from a reliable ammonia test kit, your rock was indeed cycled, but hadn't been curing long enough to pick up the benthics from other growths in a normal reef tank.

 

when you can find live rock with sponges and fanworms and algae and coralline, you are good to go as long as it came from somewhere you transported it nicely, not like shipping across the country.

 

 

benthic encrusted live rock is a dead giveaway, able to be managed just of high res pics.

 

all else requires testing.

 

the time it takes to grow real coralline and fanworms and worms and textures of real live rock also means by inference the bacteria were established long ago, they come first, before benthic animals.

 

bacteria seed live rock immediately upon emersion, immediately. some are in the water, and we've created alter currents by adding it stirring up more, but they take a while to multiply. a few weeks is ok if they were put in a speed cycling setup like ammonia+dr tims, but the only way to know is to test, without benthics to indicate. some summaries go long.

[ajmckay]

well the first time i tested i did all 4 tests, but today i just did ammonia and nitrite, i added some flakes after the test on day 2 for fun but i guess flakes don't make a difference.

 

I'm reading everything i can it's hard to get straight answers, i'm not one of those guys that ordered live rock online with tons of life, and tons of color, although it seems some light green is coming in a bit.

 

but anyway, i have no clue if i should buy bio spira? a raw shrimp? based on my set up. also my sand is 20 pounds of live Bahamas oolite.

 

Try not to overthink it... you've gotten a lot of responses surprisingly! The nitrogen cycle isn't complicated when you break it down, what's difficult is applying it to your specific situation - which is where the different interpretations come in. Truth is we don't know the exact conditions of your tank by looking at a picture.

 

First things first as brandon said you just need to verify your cycling is working. To so this get some 10% pure ammonia at the store. Dose 2.5ml into the tank using a syringe or some other fine measuring device (a childrens medicine syringe is only a few cents at the pharmacy). If you test ammonia after that you should see 3-5ppm.

 

Test again a day later and ammonia should be 0 and nitrate should be a positive number.

 

 

If the results come out as described above then your cycle is working and all that needs to happen is for it to mature. Contine to dose ammonia daily for 7-14 days and then you should be ready to start adding fish.

 

If right after testing there's no ammonia detected then your test kit is bad.

 

If a day after adding the ammonia there's still ammonia but no nitrate then your tank is not cycled. Test again in another day or 2. Once ammonia goes down and nitrates go up then the cycle is complete. Continue dosing ammonia daily for 14 days or so but don't let the ammonia build up to more than 5-6ppm. Alternatively you could buy bio-spira and follow the instructions - which I believe says to stock 24 hours after adding the bio-spira.

[iceshade]

 

Try not to overthink it... you've gotten a lot of responses surprisingly! The nitrogen cycle isn't complicated when you break it down, what's difficult is applying it to your specific situation - which is where the different interpretations come in. Truth is we don't know the exact conditions of your tank by looking at a picture.

 

First things first as brandon said you just need to verify your cycling is working. To so this get some 10% pure ammonia at the store. Dose 2.5ml into the tank using a syringe or some other fine measuring device (a childrens medicine syringe is only a few cents at the pharmacy). If you test ammonia after that you should see 3-5ppm.

 

Test again a day later and ammonia should be 0 and nitrate should be a positive number.

 

 

If the results come out as described above then your cycle is working and all that needs to happen is for it to mature. Contine to dose ammonia daily for 7-14 days and then you should be ready to start adding fish.

 

If right after testing there's no ammonia detected then your test kit is bad.

 

If a day after adding the ammonia there's still ammonia but no nitrate then your tank is not cycled. Test again in another day or 2. Once ammonia goes down and nitrates go up then the cycle is complete. Continue dosing ammonia daily for 14 days or so but don't let the ammonia build up to more than 5-6ppm. Alternatively you could buy bio-spira and follow the instructions - which I believe says to stock 24 hours after adding the bio-spira.

yeah i've been reading on bio spira, most people say don't follow what it says about adding fish quickly though, they say it just speeds up the cycle, doesn't make it instant.

 

also i'd rather not play around with pure ammonia, i might try the raw shrimp thing but that would only be in a few days, ill keep testing every day or every 2nd day to see whats happening.