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100% Water Change Vs Media


Peeleca

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It would be insanely difficult to create identical water conditions. I also could not imagine a stock in which 100% changes would be necessary

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masterbuilder

I am curious, how many people do 100% weekly water changes in lieu of modifications for media?

Is this advisable?

No its not advisable. Stability is the key. Unless you have some overriding event a 20 percent water change or so is a good target for smaller tanks.
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With 100% water changes not being recommended, and creating stability through small weekly water changes, can a pico thrive without media and tank mods?

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In my 9l Pico I do weekly 95/100% water changes. However my livestock is probably a lot more tolerant than other peoples.

 

Haven't found it to be a problem in such a small system, I do it because it is more of a necessity as I have a bare bottom and my objective is to keep the water quality as perfect as possible. The detritus that collects in a tank that small is phenomenal with only two Turbo snails and a Coral Banded shrimp, and in my case is a necessity.

 

I have never noticed any ill effect on any of the inhabitants, and this is something both the corals and the inverts have experienced from day one. Of course it goes without saying that the temperature and the salinity need to be the same.

 

Sorry about the yellowed/blued out shot of the tank :mellow: bloody iPhones (i still need to work out how to adjust the temperature properly ha ha) it is just a quick one from when lights came on about 15 minutes ago.

post-85423-0-29085200-1425246204_thumb.jpg

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Easy answer to this quandary.

What do the longest living pico reefs in the world use? An hours searching would show.

Full water changes or gfo both work! Gives freedom in how we want to reef. Small water changes and no gfo are why most pico reefs die before 18 mos of algae choking. If we do full water changes that can work, or some gfo and smaller changes. There are simply no examples available for making an old pico reef any other way, any pico using no gfo and light water changes isn't 18mos, its dead and a thread from the past. El fabs tank got three years on 50% changes before it died of eutrophication and that was regular half tank volume removal, three yrs max.


the current standard for lifespan potential is 9 yrs, not three, how are we getting 9 years on a one gallon tank? Or five years on a two?



The percentage water change you run in a pico and the frequency of tank CPR water changes is directly proportional to how many years the tank will live before a convenient tear down occurs and any corroborating evidence it could have lasted longer is never re created or shown by other posters repeating the method on any forum worldwide. :)Andrewk's tank is alive right now due to very specific planning and actions.



The ideal is 100%water change with feeding every morning. <-------Since we are too lazy to care for corals ideally, weekly is good enough. Less changes can be done if one can balance po4 sequestration and not bleach the corals.



Water params can vary when doing full changes, not much matching is necessary. I generally match salt and temp and throw it in. Until my lfs got in quality premade water I was mixing reefcrystals fresh in a milk jug, swirling it for two mins, then doing a full water change. No aging whatsoever

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disclaimer

changing 50-100% of water wastes water, somebody should find a better way. We will know if its a better way at least by 2026 if you start ur thread right now

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

:)

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Roland-Berlin

Please, dont be afraid of waterchanges in a pico reef. There is no stabiltiy of water parameters in such a small amount of water, so it is a false conclusion, that waterchanges will harm animals because of alternating parameters. What harms sea dwellers is a creeping intoxication as a result of too little waterchanges.

 

Brandon, is there any explanation, why picos die after a period of more than one year? I have a hunch, that living stones, which have a good influenze on waterparameters during the "running in time" could be one source of intoxication over a longer period of time. Did someone tried a "reef" without porous stones and sand? I am thinking of a non porous reefmaterial, that does not give space to bacteria and can be washed out easily.

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My one gallon tank will live until my elbow knocks over the tank, meteor impact, power outage or a rascal with a nerf ball takes it out, but it has an indefinite biological lifespan, phosphate will never overtake or saturate it and I don't test for phosphate or use adsorption media or use anything other than a deep sand bed and regular cured reef rocks from a pet store in 2006. The only way I can prove any of that is to keep it going longer.

 

 

But I treat that deep sand bed uniquely or it would be bad

 

Phosphate accumulates poorly in the 100% change pico reef that feeds only before a change and doesn't accumulate rot like 99.99 of every tank ever made following the contemporary rules of water changes, algae maintenance and feeding.

 

Corals live uniquely long term in any reef where whole, un rotting fresh proteins circulate in the water long enough for them to fill their guts for a decade while dissolved wastes that saturate rock with phosphate are kept zilch by not following any rules about water changes but rather making some and tracking some proofs

 

A secret technique is that pico reef corals don't function best with sparse daily feedings to avoid nutrient issues, partial water changes biweekly and since most people run them that way I watch their posts stop in 18 mos every single time.

 

I search forums regularly to try and find alt proof, anyone should link outliers right here if a mould has been broken we don't know about on nr.com

 

 

Feeding midweek or daily, not associated with water changes, gets a pico reef a typical lifespan. Reacting to algae as a nutrient problem seals the death of the tank, either by overstripping reactively or by algae encroachment.

 

If we break every rule someone with a large tank told us was inflexible, we can create and sustain fractional size tanks that live as long or longer, pico reef science shows that

 

 

Things get deeply ironic and subtle when tiny reef science breaking all the rules are used to fix bigger, more stable tanks following all rules in some very large running threads. Even tanks starting with gfo on day 1 and perfect phosphate measures get invasions (algae is not closely related to excess nutrients, we just haven't been allowed to think that yet)

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Brandon does have a pretty good point on small tank lifespan - the only way to know something works in that regard is observation over the actual time it continues for. I dunno how he gets away with the 100% water change though - I go over the 10-20% mark on a change and everything closes up for days (or I get attrition with my zoa colonies).

 

I'm pushing back on his tankpocalyse "dies on date" threshold, though. My 9 gallon tank was set up in 2011 using then tried and true methods... and yes, I ran into bloom issues riiiiight about the 18-24 month mark. Then post clean-up and some hard stocking choices based on closing nutrient cycles rather than having open ones - said tank continues to this day (pushing 3.5 years) on nothing more than twice-a-week 1 gallon water changes, weekly filter floss swapouts and daily feedings.

 

To be fair, for the last year it's been stocked only with inverts, fish, soft corals & decorative macroalgae (LPS died in the aformentioned 18-24 month mark issue). The shallow sand bed and rockwork is picked at constantly by a small army of dwarf hermits, trochus snails, shrimp and micro brittle starfish. Algae only shows up if I mistakenly move one of the floating islands out of reach of said army.

 

But his jar and Nanosapiens incredibly long-lived 12 gallon mixed reef are my routinely consulted tank profiles for what to try or not.

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BulkRate you gave me a thought

I recall your tank as being one of the few with dsb right maybe that was NS?

imo having a fish long term doubly ages the tank, the po4 sinking, risk of ammonia fallout even from natural death...3.5 yrs with a fish is excellent, el fab pulled that off as well. its another reason I like andrews small tank, had fish and possibly a fish death and still survives

use the info that those with currently running long term tanks use to be safe, forge a new path if something needs enhancement. We're wasting too much water, need to work on that imo.

I continue to waste it because I just want the tank to cruise low effort high reliability slower growth.

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That's definitely not me... I only have a 1/2" sandbed. I just like the look and the possible extra buffering capacity is a bonus. Depending on what the hermits & ceriths are up it can even be more shallow in some parts... when stirring up the sand I try to even it out every week or two.

 

Another good point - stocking fish in a small nano/pico adds its own set of nutrient buildup/export concerns. We'll see what's going on with my ongoing "too-many-fish-in-it" approach a year from now, but for the past year it's been pleasant to watch, chock full of interesting things doing yet more interesting things and the maintenance window fits the small amount of time I have to do it in each day/week.

 

Now if I could only get my hands on more display-grade macros that some faction of the clean-up crew didn't at some point or another find utterly delicious... ;)

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  • 2 weeks later...

I am curious, how many people do 100% weekly water changes in lieu of modifications for media?

Is this advisable?

(Should I take my lunch to work, or the bus?)

 

The trouble answering such questions as asked by the OP is the lack of defined parameters. What size pico are we talking about? There is a huge difference between a 2 gallon pico and a 10 or 20 gallon pico. Are we always home to do weekly water changes, or do we have to leave our aquariums for two or three weeks at a time? What bio-load are we talking about? What types of corals are in the pico? Does the pico have corals only, or corals, fish, and inverts? What do we feed? How often do we feed and how much? Is there a sand bed or bare bottom? If there is a sand bed, is it cleaned routinely or not?

 

Full water changes or gfo both work! Gives freedom in how we want to reef.

Often true, but it also depends on other parameters such as those listed above

 

the current standard for lifespan potential is 9 yrs, not three...

Again, standard for what? Two gallon picos? 20 gallon? And how many of the picos counted in the average "standard" were taken down because of housing moves, or growing tired of the hobby, etc.?

 

But to answer the OP's question, a Google search on this topic reveals the following very informative conclusions: 100% water changes are essential for long lived picos; never change more than 20% of the water at a time; bare bottom picos out-live those with sand beds; sand beds are essential for the health of picos; clean sand beds with every water change; never clean sand beds; always use carbon; never use carbon; use GFOs; GFOs are not necessary in a pico; skimmers are beneficial in picos; you don't need skimmers because water changes in a pico is all that is needed.

 

I hope that clears it up. :D

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search returns make it seem convoluted but it distills to this

 

9 yr currently running uses six inch dsb and lots of full water changes heavy feeding and spot killing to control algae.

 

 

5 yr currently running uses gfo and 50% ish changes and has balanced the gfo and nutrient profile without bleaching corals so algae isn't much of an issue. no dsb

 

 

these are not the only way, but they are the oldest anywhere. The myriad other ways constitute the search returns for tanks ranging 0-18 mos old. That's the exact breakdown of options.

 

The 5 yr tank can last indefinitely, so can the 9 they were just started at different times both grow coral. dsb systems work, the oldest pico uses one, but they are a liability compared to bare bottom especially in power outage scenarios

 

the most important thing one can do to have a successful pico or nano is to take full decisive command over any

algae and kill it. if you disallow algae independent of nutrients, you have an ageless aquarium and if you manage nutrients you'll work less. algae incursion not loss of coral is what limits most reef aquaria of any size. The missing factor in my signature is simple hand grazing, removal, of algae. In the ocean high phosphates don't drive algae, simple lack of grazers does and I mimic that with spot kills which is why algae can't grow, not that it doesn't want to sometimes. algae will surely grow in the pristine waters of the best tropical reef anywhere if simple grazers are removed

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^Agreed,

 

Algae is not just present with the excess of a fuel so to speak, it is also present when elements are lacking.

 

Algae just "Exists" in any condition :lol:

 

This becomes blatantly obvious when you run a Pico reef on the smaller end of the scale with minimal equipment (not using band aid solutions to keep levels in check)

 

Spot eradication of ANY algae you see in your Pico is the best way to go, lets call it "Micro Husbandry" ha ha.

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its a total cheat and i wish there was a better way. I think andrewK is closest on not needing it with his old 5 yr tank, but, GFO is an alt cheat. that has to be changed out, peroxide has to be reused, we're all circular but in truth his is a little more hands off. his work load is lower, its a valid way for sure. i have no way to run ext filtration to house gfo so I dont...too small tank is 1g. i suppose some could be tucked under a rock but in my tank i just squirt and cheat HA

 

 

if the gfo was was best, nothing else would exist. its downside is the balancing phase and not bleaching out the corals, really if you check gfo threads expecially ones done in response to algae, bleaching is a problem. he started out with it in small portions and worked up, nice.

 

the downside to no phosphate controls or just wc for them is eventually that nutrient w be used by a primary producer, then we must cheat. I literally can't think of a better way to reef other than these two lol.

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one good study was how poci sps grows in presence of roti feast, true controlled study but we never got to see their care or export params i had wondered if it was all plumbed to a big sump

 

they had really good data about adding mass using that feed, it wasnt necessarily independent studies but they did ideal conditions to build mass and it was neat to see correlation between coral X and a feed

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The scientists here that study coral do 75% weekly water changes and pretty basic chemical filtration.

 

What started me doing 95% water changes (close to 100% as there is some water in the bottom I just cant get) was the fact that my Pico is 2g with a 80g HOB (replaced media with coarse filter floss only), light and a heater.

 

Meaning that when I go to siphon out detritus etc. it literally takes under 15 seconds to siphon out using a standard garden hose :lol:

 

Ever since then I have always kept with as close to 100% as physically possible, because I feel it is like doing a hard drive wipe on a weekly basis. Plus the fact that over the years of owning a 5g Nano and now a 2g Pico, I have never had any negative impacts at all.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I have been doing weekly 30-50% changes on my six gallon edge. I do use chemipure elite which has some gfo i believe but i know due to not tumbling like in a reactor it can be less efficient. After reading this thread, i decided to do a 100% (95%) change in my tank today and i am happy with the results. I did it when the lights were off and an hour later when they came on every opened as normal. Tank houses SPS, LPS, and softies. Really happy with results, and after having a coral in the trashcan for 12 hours survive, i wasnt too concerned over them being out of water or parameters other than salinity and temp. I like doing this because it allowed me to blow off all rocks and sand bed and then suck everything out as opposed to it mostly depositing again. I think i will be adding this to my routing at least once a month moving forward.

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yes!

 

guess what time it is for my neglected tank Smeagol

 

 

the back to back flush out time, like a trip to the day spa for a pico.

 

i will pick the dirty rascal up and set him in the sink and put some floss over the drain plug to allow water but catch my mini stars and some pods, others can take the tunnel route they'll repopulate

 

ill pour 20x the tank volume through it, purposely stirring up the sandbed in a gray rage over the whole tank. and then keep pouring

 

and then pour some more and it w be crystal clean but messy. over the next day the sand naturally settles back, ive really only disturbed the top layer with all the ejection intent and intercepted that waste before it could go much deeper, and the corals will open up better than ever.

 

the next year is a slow accumulation phase ramping up to the next one

 

large tanks benefit from assertive changes too, its just harder to pull off and we like to preserve whats in there moreso. this is CPR for the nano reef, it is eutrophication prevention, and most importantly its applying the current top level science on algae control for all of reefdom ---pure export

 

not plant binding, refugiums, ats, or phosphate binders in tank, but raw export

 

what else allows such from a tank, you are literally able to access removal sites and pockets of waste that the white glove treatment cached up in tanks gone by.

 

CPR equals lifespan for tanks not balanced by some form of waste adsorbtion setup like GFO.

 

the rule about disturbing old sandbeds:

 

impartial action w prob kill your whole tank, leave it alone or dont have one if it can't be exported correctly.

when you do disturb it, disturb the hound out of it while you are simultaneously removing the kicked up poisons :) which is why its true that deep sand beds and pico reefs are a tough pair to keep going long term...somebody always ends up underdoing something heh

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My tanks haven't been going long enough to have any true credibility - but on average I am doing 100% WCs every 1-2 weeks. I dose an alternating 3/5 drops phyto* with 10/20 drops Reef Energy A+B* every other day (sometimes I skip a day in between). Then leading up to the WC I target feed the corals in the 5 gallon and the coral, crab, hobbit worm, and anemones in the 3 gallon pest tank along with a heavy handed flurry feed for each tank with a DIY frozen food blend.

 

Then I blast the rocks and sand with baster squeezes and run filter floss the day or two before - then do the 100% WC by emptying and then dumping in the fresh salt mix hard onto the rock and sand kicking up what I can. Then slowly start building the dissolved nutrients again. Very similar to how I used to handle EI dosing on a planted freshwater tank.

 

My pods are CRAZY, my coralline growth is pretty nice in the 3 months they have been setup, and the corals are all open within 20 minutes if not instantly of the water change, have good polyp extension, and are showing growth, even the LPS and SPS.

 

*drop routine for 3 gallon/5 gallon

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I've had a 4 gallon setup for 10 months now. 1.5 inch sand bed. I do 30% water changes with and occasional 20% mid week if I can. The few times that I have done 100% WC's things are really unhappy after and I get RTN on sensitive sps.

 

Key word sensitive SPS. I think if you have all hardy corals and they can fight through a couple parameter changes- big water changes are great.

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All sps, six hour daily drain

 

http://reefbuilders.com/2010/10/19/simon-garratts-intertidal-reef-months/

 

I leave my own tank with sps drained long intervals too, but not that long lol

 

All sps tanks can be acclimated to full changes but only if needed, its ok to change smaller amounts if thats your tanks tune

 

like Andrewk did if your tank variables don't like a full change as the tank ages its easy to use a little gfo to soak up phosphate in place of larger export

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