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Re-cycling new tank question


Dlc27

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I started up a new 20g tank with a bag of CaribSea Arag Alive, a few live rocks (3-5 lbs) from my established tank, and a few handfuls of saturated filter fiber that had run in the established tank. no light, temp 78. I also threw some mysis in there for good measure. The cycle did it's thing so the ammonia and nitrites were just about zero, and the nitrate at 20. On Monday I recieved my order of cured Real Reef, and added that. Naturally I saw a rise in ammonia and nitrites again, but I figured this would be a mini cycle, and ordered two rock nems that won't be here till next Friday giving me almost two more weeks for things to even out. I SHOULD have minded my hesitations, and waited for a diatom bloom etc., but I wanted those nems. So on Wednesday I came home to find that the Real Reef was completely white. Well the 4th gen peices were anyway. They stuck some garishly purple older generation Real Reef in my order as well even though I emailed before ordering to be sure that they were selling the 4th gen. Long story short it had been in the vendors curing tanks for "a while", and Real Reef does fade after six months or more, but by that time (ideally having been in your established tank during this time) you've got coraline so it's not noticeable. More long story short the vendor is going to send me some more (after they receive another shipment since they are now out... further rubbing my nose in the fact that I got the scraps from the bottom of the barrel... whatever, they are making good... I hope), but now I'm going to have ANOTHER mini cycle. Possibly after I recieve my nems since I haven't gotten a response yet to my email yesterday on time frame and other details.

Should I run out and buy one of the instant cycle products? I've never used anything like that before, but it seems I've gotten myself into a desperate situation. I was reading about and considering Continuuum Aquatics Bacteria Gen-M. Anyone tried this, or have any other recommendations? I'm also wondering if I should just take the rocks out when the nems arrive, and only leave my rocks. My luck so far they'd attach to a rock I don't want in a way that I can't safely remove them!

Im so pissed right now on a number of levels. At myself for assuming things before I had them, and at the vendor who could have shown some courtesy in replying that they didn't have what I was very specific in stating I wanted BEFORE I purchased. They screwed me in type, quality, and size, apparently because they were down to the last of their stock when I ordered. If they'd only said, I'd have been content to wait on them.

I had to get that out, but back to the fast cycle products, and the rock situation. Thoughts?

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So... these rocks, they are cured? Or semi-cured?

 

Either way I am not entirely sure your tank was cycled in the first place. Have you check the current filtrative capacity? If it is just a matter of a few rocks being added/changed then it should be fine, but only if the tank is truly cycled.

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I started up a new 20g tank with a bag of CaribSea Arag Alive, a few live rocks (3-5 lbs) from my established tank, and a few handfuls of saturated filter fiber that had run in the established tank. no light, temp 78. I also threw some mysis in there for good measure. The cycle did it's thing so the ammonia and nitrites were just about zero, and the nitrate at 20. On Monday I recieved my order of cured Real Reef, and added that. Naturally I saw a rise in ammonia and nitrites again, but I figured this would be a mini cycle, and ordered two rock nems that won't be here till next Friday giving me almost two more weeks for things to even out. I SHOULD have minded my hesitations, and waited for a diatom bloom etc., but I wanted those nems. So on Wednesday I came home to find that the Real Reef was completely white. Well the 4th gen peices were anyway. They stuck some garishly purple older generation Real Reef in my order as well even though I emailed before ordering to be sure that they were selling the 4th gen. Long story short it had been in the vendors curing tanks for "a while", and Real Reef does fade after six months or more, but by that time (ideally having been in your established tank during this time) you've got coraline so it's not noticeable. More long story short the vendor is going to send me some more (after they receive another shipment since they are now out... further rubbing my nose in the fact that I got the scraps from the bottom of the barrel... whatever, they are making good... I hope), but now I'm going to have ANOTHER mini cycle. Possibly after I recieve my nems since I haven't gotten a response yet to my email yesterday on time frame and other details.

Should I run out and buy one of the instant cycle products? I've never used anything like that before, but it seems I've gotten myself into a desperate situation. I was reading about and considering Continuuum Aquatics Bacteria Gen-M. Anyone tried this, or have any other recommendations? I'm also wondering if I should just take the rocks out when the nems arrive, and only leave my rocks. My luck so far they'd attach to a rock I don't want in a way that I can't safely remove them!

Im so pissed right now on a number of levels. At myself for assuming things before I had them, and at the vendor who could have shown some courtesy in replying that they didn't have what I was very specific in stating I wanted BEFORE I purchased. They screwed me in type, quality, and size, apparently because they were down to the last of their stock when I ordered. If they'd only said, I'd have been content to wait on them.

I had to get that out, but back to the fast cycle products, and the rock situation. Thoughts?

Yeah, not optimal situation you have gotten yourself into, but don't stress. ;)

 

First of all, do you have any reef buddies close by, that could do an emergency babysitting of your rock nems in case you suddenly observe them looking stressed? That would help a lot :)

 

For "the bacteria in a bottle" products I have avoided them, since they usually are only dead/wrong bacteria and you can get just as good results with just some additional waiting. However, if I were to use this kind of product I would definitely go with Dr. Tim's "One & Only Live Nitrifying Bacteria": http://www.drtimsaquatics.com/reef-nano-and-seahorse-aquarium#one

Mr. SaltwaterTank, Mark Callahan, has featured this product in his show and used it personally in some pretty huge builds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPxExG-FbvI

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I'm sure that it was fully through the nitrogen cycle phase before I added the Real Reef. I was only seeing nitrates in my testing. I decided not to do a water change at the end since I knew I was adding new rock.The Real Reef was fully cured, but shipped to me, and I saw the ammonia rise again with the die off of pods n things.

My filtrative capacity? Meaning biological? Right now I'm only running floss, and I have some macro in the camber as well as on rocks from my established tank. Other than those few rocks of mine, there is the sand bed. Mechanically I was just about to add chemi pure and purigen, and start breaking in my new skimmer when I ran into the rock issue.

Thanks Sailfish. No reef buddies nearby, I do have an 8g cube could technically squeeze them into. I'm not sure if shifting them into there after seeing them stress in the 20 wouldn't be worse though. I'm going to check out Dr. Tim's. Thanks for the tip.

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I'm sure that it was fully through the nitrogen cycle phase before I added the Real Reef. I was only seeing nitrates in my testing. I decided not to do a water change at the end since I knew I was adding new rock.The Real Reef was fully cured, but shipped to me, and I saw the ammonia rise again with the die off of pods n things.

My filtrative capacity? Meaning biological? Right now I'm only running floss, and I have some macro in the camber as well as on rocks from my established tank. Other than those few rocks of mine, there is the sand bed. Mechanically I was just about to add chemi pure and purigen, and start breaking in my new skimmer when I ran into the rock issue.

Thanks Sailfish. No reef buddies nearby, I do have an 8g cube could technically squeeze them into. I'm not sure if shifting them into there after seeing them stress in the 20 wouldn't be worse though. I'm going to check out Dr. Tim's. Thanks for the tip.

Thanks Sailfish.mNo reef buddies around here, but I do have an 8 gallon I could squeeze them into... Maybe. I'm going to check out Dr. Tim's. Thanks for the tip.

Thanks Sailfish.mNo reef buddies around here, but I do have an 8 gallon I could squeeze them into... Maybe. If shifting them after they were stressed in the 20 already wouldn't be worse? I'm going to check out Dr. Tim's. Thanks for the tip.

No problem :)

If you see them start stressing out, then no, it will not be worse to put them in the 8G. If they go from OK -> stressed, then all that can settle them are better water parameters :) Just drip acclimate anything you put into an aquarium and you will forever stay golden! B)

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I'm sure that it was fully through the nitrogen cycle phase before I added the Real Reef. I was only seeing nitrates in my testing. I decided not to do a water change at the end since I knew I was adding new rock.The Real Reef was fully cured, but shipped to me, and I saw the ammonia rise again with the die off of pods n things.

My filtrative capacity? Meaning biological? Right now I'm only running floss, and I have some macro in the camber as well as on rocks from my established tank. Other than those few rocks of mine, there is the sand bed. Mechanically I was just about to add chemi pure and purigen, and start breaking in my new skimmer when I ran into the rock issue.

Thanks Sailfish. No reef buddies nearby, I do have an 8g cube could technically squeeze them into. I'm not sure if shifting them into there after seeing them stress in the 20 wouldn't be worse though. I'm going to check out Dr. Tim's. Thanks for the tip.

I mean testing it. Only way to know if you are truly cycled. Even if your ANN zeros out, it doesn't necessarily mean that it has cycled. You need to make sure that if it rises, it can zero out quickly. Only then is your tank cycled.

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So backup plan is the 8gallon. Any thoughts on taking the rocks I won't be keeping out to avoid the nems atatching to one in a way that makes it hard to remove? Nah, I guess I could always shift the rock in a way that will make them come off on thier own.

Azedenkae the link doesn't work, but I think I'm good in the cycle department. My problem is that I planned to have the rocks settled and doing their thing by the time my livestock arrived, but that isn't the case, and I can't do anything about it now.

 

Probably the nems will be fine, and I will be the one stressing with daily testing and lots of water changes. I'm also wondering if the nems get here before the rock.... They will have just been shipped "cured" to the vendor, and then re-shipped to me. I'll have to re-cure them before putting them in the tank, yeah? Crap. Should I do this in a bucket with a powerhead? I've never added new rock to a tank before.

 

On a happy note I didn't miss the opportunity to suggest to hubby that starting up another tank to cycle the rocks in when they arrive might be necessary. I'm not sure he took me seriously though. :)

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Moving rocks among tanks doesn't recycle them either, its not fatal to switch into 100% new saltwater of a different brand. The life and death action of live rock has been misstated for twenty years and API is why

 

Disturbing used up sandbeds can generate a mini cycle it almost never occurs with live rock transfers. LR will easily do 10-20 mins in the air and not die. It used to be stated that worm death would cause a chain event, but worms have their own death cycles in normal tanks, mini cycles almost never occur unless an old sandbed is disturbed partially..

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So backup plan is the 8gallon. Any thoughts on taking the rocks I won't be keeping out to avoid the nems atatching to one in a way that makes it hard to remove? Nah, I guess I could always shift the rock in a way that will make them come off on thier own.

Azedenkae the link doesn't work, but I think I'm good in the cycle department. My problem is that I planned to have the rocks settled and doing their thing by the time my livestock arrived, but that isn't the case, and I can't do anything about it now.

 

Probably the nems will be fine, and I will be the one stressing with daily testing and lots of water changes. I'm also wondering if the nems get here before the rock.... They will have just been shipped "cured" to the vendor, and then re-shipped to me. I'll have to re-cure them before putting them in the tank, yeah? Crap. Should I do this in a bucket with a powerhead? I've never added new rock to a tank before.

 

On a happy note I didn't miss the opportunity to suggest to hubby that starting up another tank to cycle the rocks in when they arrive might be necessary. I'm not sure he took me seriously though. :)

 

Oops, link fixed.

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But I not moving rocks back and forth Brandon, I'm adding rock that was shipped in a box with wet paper for two days. That absolutely does cause a mini cycle.

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Oh I thought you said you were moving rocks from one tank to another. Curious, what was the ammonia levels and how long have they held since the install

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I mean testing it. Only way to know if you are truly cycled. Even if your ANN zeros out, it doesn't necessarily mean that it has cycled. You need to make sure that if it rises, it can zero out quickly. Only then is your tank cycled.

I see. With freshwater tanks I always added food or waste from existing tanks consistently throughout the cycle to feed it. With saltwater (the only three tanks I've started) I add mysis after the initial shock of die off on the live rock settles down. Ive never added anything to test out whether the bio filter can handle it after the cycle is done.... I've also never had issues either. I DID wait for the diatoms to come and go on my second tank before adding anything more than a CUC. IMO that is the real end of the break in period for a new tank.

Unfortunately, whether I was cycled or not is a moot point. I'm in it now, so to speak. As of Friday, I've got to new rock flower nems arriving and a half ready tank. :( which is why I'm asking about bacteria supplements. Even then I'm still dealing with the issue of new rock probably getting here AFTER the nems. What a mess. Maybe I should just drive an hour to the closest lfs and grab some cured rock now, and ask the Real Reef vendor for a refund. Since their response was a replacement they probably won't be willing.

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I see. With freshwater tanks I always added food or waste from existing tanks consistently throughout the cycle to feed it. With saltwater (the only three tanks I've started) I add mysis after the initial shock of die off on the live rock settles down. Ive never added anything to test out whether the bio filter can handle it after the cycle is done.... I've also never had issues either. I DID wait for the diatoms to come and go on my second tank before adding anything more than a CUC. IMO that is the real end of the break in period for a new tank.

Unfortunately, whether I was cycled or not is a moot point. I'm in it now, so to speak. As of Friday, I've got to new rock flower nems arriving and a half ready tank. :( which is why I'm asking about bacteria supplements. Even then I'm still dealing with the issue of new rock probably getting here AFTER the nems. What a mess. Maybe I should just drive an hour to the closest lfs and grab some cured rock now, and ask the Real Reef vendor for a refund. Since their response was a replacement they probably won't be willing.

 

Mhm, see I was just wondering if you could cancel the rock flower nems.

 

But given that it is not possible now, what I would suggest is just let the current tank be. Get the nems, put them in there. When the new rocks come, place the nems in another container temporarily - with the proper heating and everything if necessary, whilst adding the new rocks to the tank and let it cycle as quickly as possible, then add the nems back.

 

I think that's probably the only way. ><

 

I agree that the Real Reef vendor probably won't honor a refund, so yeah. ><

 

Man, what a predicament you are in. :(

 

And if I was you, I'd not want to part with the nems either... rock nems are quite unique, so once you find something you like it is hard to find a replacement.

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Oh I thought you said you were moving rocks from one tank to another. Curious, what was the ammonia levels and how long have they held since the install

The ammonia was gone, the nitrites were barley registering, and nitrate was 20 when I tested a few days before the Real Reef got here. Two days after adding the shipment ammonia and nitrite went back up. Yesterday morning ammonia was 1ppm, nitrite was around .25, and nitrates between 20 and 40. I intentionally did not do a water change before adding the new rock. About to test again tonight.

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The ammonia was gone, the nitrites were barley registering, and nitrate was 20 when I tested a few days before the Real Reef got here. Two days after adding the shipment ammonia and nitrite went back up. Yesterday morning ammonia was 1ppm, nitrite was around .25, and nitrates between 20 and 40. I intentionally did not do a water change before adding the new rock. About to test again tonight.

 

Hm, actually go for one of those bottled bacteria products. Probably your only hope right now. That are humongous water changes.

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Mhm, see I was just wondering if you could cancel the rock flower nems.

 

But given that it is not possible now, what I would suggest is just let the current tank be. Get the nems, put them in there. When the new rocks come, place the nems in another container temporarily - with the proper heating and everything if necessary, whilst adding the new rocks to the tank and let it cycle as quickly as possible, then add the nems back.

 

I think that's probably the only way. ><

 

I agree that the Real Reef vendor probably won't honor a refund, so yeah. ><

 

Man, what a predicament you are in. :(

 

And if I was you, I'd not want to part with the nems either... rock nems are quite unique, so once you find something you like it is hard to find a replacement.

I think that's exactly what I'll do. I've never used those bacteria products, and I'm a little afraid of them screwing with the natural balance. You're spot on about me and the nems. I've been looking at RFAs for a year now, and when I saw one that looked like another I saw months ago and never forgot, I bought it.
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Hey Dlc,

 

First off, IMO you're not in the predicament you think you're in... If I have it wrong correct me, but you started a new tank with some filter sponge and rubble from an established tank and then got some real reef rock and it turned white? Meanwhile you have livestock coming in... Sound about right?

 

I'm not super familiar with the real reef rock but I'm guessing it shouldn't have turned white so you want new rock? From what I read at their site the rock is cured for like 12 weeks. So as long as they live up to their claims I don't see why it would cause much of a "mini cycle" if you got new rock... Obviously you have reasons to doubt that claim though!

 

Anyways, keep the tank as it is now and assuming that you are testing 0 ammonia and nitrite and a reasonable level of nitrates then you should be fine to add the flower nems.

 

When your new rock comes, if you have reason to believe that they will cause issues (like you can visually see dead stuff on it), or if you just want to be safe, set up a bucket or 2 with some saltwater and a powerhead and stick the rock in there. You can test the water if you want but if the water tests fine after a few days it's not going to cause any issues in the tank. This is a good way to ensure that rock has been sufficiently cured because admittedly not all LR vendors cure their rock adequately.

 

Regarding the bacteria in a bottle, I haven't used the stuff but based on results that I've observed I would use it if I had the opportunity to. But IMO it doesn't sound like you really need to. You added the bacteria when you put in the sponge and rubble from the established tank. The only benefit I could see to adding the bacteria in a bottle would be that you could add more livestock and add it quicker. Make sense?

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Hey Dlc,

 

First off, IMO you're not in the predicament you think you're in... If I have it wrong correct me, but you started a new tank with some filter sponge and rubble from an established tank and then got some real reef rock and it turned white? Meanwhile you have livestock coming in... Sound about right?

 

I'm not super familiar with the real reef rock but I'm guessing it shouldn't have turned white so you want new rock? From what I read at their site the rock is cured for like 12 weeks. So as long as they live up to their claims I don't see why it would cause much of a "mini cycle" if you got new rock... Obviously you have reasons to doubt that claim though!

 

Anyways, keep the tank as it is now and assuming that you are testing 0 ammonia and nitrite and a reasonable level of nitrates then you should be fine to add the flower nems.

 

When your new rock comes, if you have reason to believe that they will cause issues (like you can visually see dead stuff on it), or if you just want to be safe, set up a bucket or 2 with some saltwater and a powerhead and stick the rock in there. You can test the water if you want but if the water tests fine after a few days it's not going to cause any issues in the tank. This is a good way to ensure that rock has been sufficiently cured because admittedly not all LR vendors cure their rock adequately.

 

Regarding the bacteria in a bottle, I haven't used the stuff but based on results that I've observed I would use it if I had the opportunity to. But IMO it doesn't sound like you really need to. You added the bacteria when you put in the sponge and rubble from the established tank. The only benefit I could see to adding the bacteria in a bottle would be that you could add more livestock and add it quicker. Make sense?

Yes it does, and you summed things up perfectly. I think I'm going to put the rocks in a bucket when they arrive, and test for a few days as you suggested. I'll also keep an eye on the nems, and be ready to do several water changes till things calm down. I think you're right... it's not as bad as it could be, and everything will be fine. Lol
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