I can't figure out what is causing respratory problems in my fish.

[Recoiljunky]

Hello, I'm not sure if i put this in the wrong section. Please move it if have.

 

I hate it when i cant figure out something but i do need help. Thankyou in advance.

 

I am new to saltwater aquariums, but i have had succesfull freshwater aquariums and i brew beer sucessfuly so water chemestry is not new to me. I started cycling a 50 gallon tank with 55 lbs of live rock that was covered in coraline 5 weeks ago. At 2 weeks what looked like diatomes started to apear. The cycle finished 3 weeks in thoe i keeped dosing to keep gowing bactera and doing a 20% water change every 4 days leaving the diatomes alone as i read many places on forums not to mess with it and it would clear up on its own. At week 4 I introduced 3 small green cromis to the tank when amonia was at 0 nitrites 0 and nitrate 20. I emediatly noticed that the smallest of the cromis was getting bitten by the largest one. 4 days into having the cromis in 2 died with blown eyes and bite marks and ammonia at 0.5 ppm with the largest alive on the bottom breathing heavily, i removed the two dead fish and within 3 hours the ammonia droped down to 0 again. the largest one died the next morning. thinking that it died from the ammonia spike from 2 decaying fish that were bullied to death in the next 3 days i introduced a pixy hawkfish and a palm tree polyp. after 24 hours i noticed the hawk fish was breathing heavily but was eating well and the polyp was opening and closing repidly. the hawkfish died 6 hours later. the polyp is still alive but looks stressed. there are stil what looks like diatomes on the live rock and glass.

 

water paramiter useing petco saltwater mix

spacific gravy useing a hydrometer 1.0235

spacific gravity using refractometer 1.0235

gravity useing bulb hydrometer 6 Brix the one i use for brewing

water temp 79F and does not vary through the day

ph 8.2

dKH 12

ammonia 0ppm

nitrite 0ppm

nitrate 20ppm

phosphates .25ppm

seachem prime used to declorinate

korilia evolution 1150gpm

air pump rated for 60 gallons and fine airstone

fluval canister filter rated for 70 gallons with charcoal and bio media

2x 30? watt mistery chinnese lamps

50 lbs of gravel and sand

55lbs of live rock with coraline

tapwater that is working fine in my roommates freshwater aquarium.

test kits used are the API 5ml vials that you add drops to.

 

Thankyou for your time and efforts.

 

 

 

 

 

[ajmckay]

Normally I don't respond to threads from someone with only 1 post, but you were pretty thorough in your post and I read it already

 

So based on what you wrote I can't identify anything wrong specifically... Your timeline seems reasonable, your water parameters may not be ideal but they're not going to cause harm to chromis either.

 

My first reaction as to the cause of your issues is that there's something wrong with your acclimation procedure. This is pretty typical of issues from acclimation anyways - where a fish will act fine at first, there are no issues with water quality, and then 1-4 days later they suddenly die. Obviously this wasn't the only issue with the 2 chromis that died, but it may have contributed to their weakness.

 

One thing to think about is your water quality is okay on it's own, but how does it compare to the LFS? Fish don't do well with changes in their environment that aren't super gradual. For example there's usually a wide range of salinity in the different systems at so,e LFS and also between different stores. So now any time I purchase a fish I bring a water sample and I ask them to test my sample as well as the water from the tank I want to buy the fish from. I use their refractometer so that the results can be compared without having to deal with issues from calibration.

 

My guess is that either something in the LFS water (probably salinity) is different than yours, or your acclimation procedure is flawed in some way. Can you explain in detail what you did to acclimate those fish?

[Recoiljunky]

Thankyou for your response

 

That is a good idea that i have over looked. as for the aclimation procedure i turn the power head off and the lights off. i then let the bag float for apoximatly 30-40 mintues. or in the case of the coral sink. after that i open the bag and revove 25% of the water "not into the tank". i use a meat injector that was boiled before useing on both the fresh and saltwater aquarium and i add 70ml of aquarium water and wait 15 minutes then i add another 70 ml of water wait 10 minutes then let it swim into the aquarium and dispose of the water that is in the bag. i leave the lights off and the power head off untill the next morning and i feed frozen mysis shrimp that has been thawed in aquarium water.

[ndrobey]

You would be better off with the drip acclimation method.

Also, tap water isn't good enough for saltwater fish. You really need RO/DI.

[CronicReefer]

I'm guessing this could have been osmotic shock. Most stores in my area keep salinity at 1.026. If your stores' are doing the same then the fish are experiencing a large salinity swing when you transfer them to your tank. Try getting your salinity to match your local fish store and see if this helps. Also the reason you can't use tap water is because it contains elements and minerals that will throw off the balance of the saltwater. Also certain heavy metals like copper are often in tap water which can kill invertebrates in your tank.

[ajmckay]

Thankyou for your response

 

That is a good idea that i have over looked. as for the aclimation procedure i turn the power head off and the lights off. i then let the bag float for apoximatly 30-40 mintues. or in the case of the coral sink. after that i open the bag and revove 25% of the water "not into the tank". i use a meat injector that was boiled before useing on both the fresh and saltwater aquarium and i add 70ml of aquarium water and wait 15 minutes then i add another 70 ml of water wait 10 minutes then let it swim into the aquarium and dispose of the water that is in the bag. i leave the lights off and the power head off untill the next morning and i feed frozen mysis shrimp that has been thawed in aquarium water.

 

I personally think you would be better served using a different acclimation method. There are a ton of methods - drip acclimation is probably one of the most widely used and it's nice because it's kind of "set it and forget it".

 

If you're using the bag method float the bag for 10-15 minutes (just to bring the temp up/down a bit closer to the tank) then do as you did but take a bit longer - do more like 10% every 10-15 minutes and just make it a 1:1 switch. Dispose of 1/2 cup (or whatever your estimation of 10% is - you can dump some water initially if there's too much in the bag) of bag water and then replace it with 1/2 cup of tank water. Do this for like 2-3 hours.

 

I've encountered people (LFS employees) who simply instruct you to float the bag for 20 minutes and then dump the fish in, whatever method you use you're going to say it works fine - until it doesn't, then you find a better way. There are just so many variables that I prefer to take my time with acclimating, especially if I don't know what the LFS water is at.

 

As for tap water - it's generally not recommended for reef tanks, though just like acclimation methods there are a lot of variables. Using tap water is not inherently bad for reefs assuming you treat it properly using prime or whatever. I ran my tank for a few years off tap water and generally it ran fine but I was pretty much constantly fighting algae. To say that you "need" RO/DI water I don't think is true though. For example I run my basement FOWLR using treated tap with no issues at all.

[NorthGaHillbilly]

I'm dumb. And as everyone said before, use either ro or distilled asap.

[Maniu]

I agree.

Top water is way to risky for use in reef aquariums.

Water could contain traces of elements dangerous to marine life but undetectable to your common test kit.

Acclimation period and methods depends greatly on species, water chemistry difference & time in transport/temperature swings.

For example:

Porcelain crab that wasn't "drip acclimated" by accident (hitchhiker). Died within an hour from introduction to new environment.

Gorilla crab (also hitchhiker) on the other hand, survived a whole lot more then that.

Cutting coral colony on wet saw he was found.

Extended periods out of water.

Coral dipping. (Twice)

Then transferred to "piss off" tank that host all unknown hitchhikers and grows chaeto.

Survived salinity swings from 1.014 to 1.028.

When "piss off" tank became an idea for new nano setup, crab was tossed in a bucket with unwanted rubble, chaeto leftovers and some water.

Survived in that bucket for two weeks without light, heat (I am guessing bucket temp.was around low 60s) and food.

As you can see, some can die from tiniest of changes.

And others are almost immortal.

So acclimate accordingly and be suspicious of your top water.

......ohhhhh and knowing your lfs chem specs is always a plus.

Good luck

[Chadf]

1.035 is higher than you should be at, 1.026 aught to help with stress on the fish. And as everyone said before, use either ro or distilled asap.

He said 1.0235

[NorthGaHillbilly]

He said 1.0235

I'm dumb.

[Recoiljunky]

Thankyou all for your responses. I will start doing waterchanges with distilled water, increase the saltinity and switch to the drip aclimation method. Would it be good to suck the diatomes from the gravel and sand?

[ajmckay]

Thankyou all for your responses. I will start doing waterchanges with distilled water, increase the saltinity and switch to the drip aclimation method. Would it be good to suck the diatomes from the gravel and sand?

 

Woah woah - I think that switching up your accimation method is a good idea, but the use of tap water or your 1.0235 salinity wasn't the cause of your initial problems with fish dying... Using purified water and increasing your salinity to 1.025 are good suggestions and may help you in the future, but doing these 2 things alone won't solve your issues because fish aren't overly sensitive to salinity (as long as it's stable they can live in a pretty wide range) nor conditioned tap water. IMO using a more gradual acclimation method will make the biggest difference based on the information you've given.

 

I completely agree that tap water is not ideal for reef aquariums - but I don't agree that it's a blanket statement applicable to everyone. We don't know where you live or what the conditions of your water are. So I'm not saying you should use tap water, but I'm annoyed that everyone is saying that tap water is not suitable for reef tanks just because - or because it contains dangerous elements... You said that you're using prime water conditioner, which per the description :

 

Prime® removes chlorine, chloramine and ammonia. Prime® converts ammonia into a safe, non-toxic form that is readily removed by the tank’s biofilter. Prime® may be used during tank cycling to alleviate ammonia/nitrite toxicity. Prime® detoxifies nitrite and nitrate, allowing the biofilter to more efficiently remove them. It will also detoxify any heavy metals found in the tap water at typical concentration levels.

 

So you're detoxifying the tap water with prime... Unless you're tap has above normal concentrations it should be fine for fish.

 

Anyways, sorry to get off track I just don't want you to get too frustrated. If someone gives you advice and you don't completely understand it you should push back and ask for an explanation or do further research on the suggestion. It's not a good idea when you're having a problem to take all the advice you can and completely change the way you're doing things. Changing too many things at once makes it harder to find out what the real problem is and leads to confusion. For example don't suddenly change your water to 1.026 until you've decided for yourself that's the best option. Doing so might make the difference between your water and the LFS water larger and contribute to the acclimation problem. Until you ask what they keep their S.G. at you won't know.

 

You can suck up the diatoms if you wish, however, they will probably come back the next day. They usually stick around until they've absorbed the nutrients they can and then they die off.

 

Good luck.

[Benny314]

Just to really upset everyone (except ajmckay).........

 

Brace your selves..............

 

I run my tank on tap water.

 

There I said it.......

 

I aerate it vigorously overnight before mixing my salt as this removes chlorine and I have no issues. I live in deepest darkest Cornwall in the UK and our tap water is ridiculously soft (just like RO DI) so I have to buffer it up when mixing the salt. Also bugger all gets added to our water over here unlike you lot over the pond where fluoride and allsorts of other things are chucked in just for good measure, just what it picks up on its way to me which where I live isn't anything detrimental.

 

As has been stated, gentle acclimation is going to be the biggest improvement.

 

One thing that seems to have been over looked, how reputable is the LFS your using for your stock?

I have several shops near me. One I will not use as everything I have had or heard of people having from there dies normally infecting and killing other fish etc in the process.

Some shops just don't care or have poor quality suppliers and its part of the learning curve of fish keeping as to who you buy what from.

Just a thought that hasn't come up yet.

[CJJon]

Yeah, use tap water, it will be fine--no worries!

 

If not, I am sure that Benny will fly right out from the good old UK with some of his premo tap water. Fix ya right up mate!

 

[Recoiljunky]

Thank you for all of your help. Tomarrow im picking up another hawkfish and a shaving brush plant and drip aclimate them both.

[Recoiljunky]

so today i did the drip aclimation for a falco hawkfish, chalk bass and a shaving brush plant "the bass was on the planned list of fish to get and just so hapened to be the same size as the hawk. i descovered that my lfs is keepimg there gravity at 1.020 for the fish and 1.025 for there inverts, corals and plants. i aclimated both fish together " they cam from the same tank" for 4 and 1/2 hours checking the gravity every 30 minutes or so waiting for it to equilize. I did notice after 2 hours they started brathing heavy. Should i be concernd? after introduction to the display the hawkfish wasnt shy but the bass went immediately into hiding i i cant even find where it went.

 

side note: The plant i aclimated for 2 hours as that was how long it took for the salt level to equilize

also: when i was aclimating the fish and plant i had both lamps over the polyp. it opened up all the way and sayed open. i guess it just needed more light.

[Benny314]

That's not uncommon for shops to run their fish only systems at a lower salt level. My main shop runs the fish only system at 1.022 and coral trays are at 1.025.

 

Good luck with the new additions.

[CJJon]

4 1/2 hour acclimation? Seems like that is too long to me. I bet ammonia built up in the bag during that time. Were both fish in the same bag? Even more ammonia would build up.

[Recoiljunky]

I put them both in a bucket together. I was removing water periodically. Probrobly had 1.5-2 gallons go through the bucket

[Recoiljunky]

Looking at both fish today the hawk is no longer breathing heavy and the bass is only breathing lightly

[CJJon]

Temp acclimate for 10 min. 30 minute drip acclimate. Set to double the water in 30 min. Scoop gently, plunk into tank. Discard water from bag/container. Keep things quiet (don't power feed the tank after adding fish) and go slow around the new guys for a while. The whole ordeal is quite stressful to the fish.

[Recoiljunky]

It was the aclimation that was the issue. Both fish are still doing fine. Thankyou everyone for your help.