Perfect shimmer with no colour banding epiphany!?

[cocojakes]

okay, I might be crazy, I've been focusing way too much on my lighting the past week, and am going crazy, but I think I had an epiphany.

 

What if I pretended that I was using metal halides.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

let me explain.

 

Instead of pucks consisting of all the LEDs, put the Red, Blue, and Actinic (royal blue + Violet) channels in strips, two strips, one spanning the front, one spanning the back, with diffusers on them, so that for all intents and purposes, they are slightly colour mixed t5 tubes. Then have two high intensity neutral white led lights which are perfect point sources with lenses. Something like the 12W LEDs from Steves LED, maybe even more bright, but the equivalent of 4x 3W LEDs per puck, two of them (24W of white) over what is pretty much a standard 29gal, seems like plenty.

 

 

well well well? It would be metal halide + t5, but all LED instead. Perfect point source shimmer lines, without breaking the bank on kessil or radion lights. What are opinions, is anyone doing this? how does it work out. I think I need a break from my tank I know my wallet needs a break from my constant changes in lighting.

[cocojakes]

something like this?

[jedimasterben]

It's been done before (can't remember the brand) but they used a regular white/blue mix multichip for the point-source. Still had some color banding, and if you have red, even pretty heavily diffused you'll likely still see some separating. Dedicated reds just don't blend well.

[cocojakes]

It's been done before (can't remember the brand) but they used a regular white/blue mix multichip for the point-source. Still had some color banding, and if you have red, even pretty heavily diffused you'll likely still see some separating. Dedicated reds just don't blend well.

yeah, the red is an issue, but I really want to be able to add a little bit of red, to give it that purple look visually, without BLASTING the corals with violet light. How does BuildMyLED do it, because they have reds in their "purple" light, but at least from what I've seen, you don't see banding really with their lights? They're pretty heavily diffused I assume. Does the idea stand up though? make white point sources, and blue "t5 actinics" similar to how it used to be done regularly with halides? that way only the white shimmers, so you don't get disco, because theres literally only one colour of point source light.

[VW_TDI_02]

Can't you sub in warm whites instead of full reds? Should add in a bit of the red without being as overpowering.

[cocojakes]

Can't you sub in warm whites instead of full reds? Should add in a bit of the red without being as overpowering.

 

I find that even warm white, tends to just be more yellow, not more red. I want to use red to mix with blue to create a purplish colour, without using a ton of coral bleaching violet

[xmas_one]

Why pretend, why don't you get a couple of high CRI Veros and run them with blue plus/actinic T5s?

[cocojakes]

Why pretend, why don't you get a couple of high CRI Veros and run them with blue plus/actinic T5s?

 

 

because I don't want mega expensive bulb replacements every 6 months, Super heated water, and a hydro bill higher than a kite

[xmas_one]

Veros are leds, and you do not have to replace t5s every 6 months, more like 12-18.

[cocojakes]

Veros are leds, and you do not have to replace t5s every 6 months, more like 12-18.

oh, I just assumed you literally meant metal halides and t5 time to google veros

[cocojakes]

okay, so why a Vero 10 as opposed to a Luxeon M 12W ? whats the difference? From what I can tell the Luxeon M would better achieve my super tight point source, but I haven't really read up much on either, any advantages/disadvantages to either?

Also, the reason to make psudo LED t5 bulbs, as opposed to regular t5 bulbs is that I can dim, and colour mix them.

[Hexadron]

Not exactly DIY, but why not just hold out for the Kessil AP700? It seems to have everything you want Adjustable color spectrum and amazing shimmer. Not sure about price or release date though.

[cocojakes]

Not exactly DIY, but why not just hold out for the Kessil AP700? It seems to have everything you want Adjustable color spectrum and amazing shimmer. Not sure about price or release date though.

 

Because as sexy as it looks, it comes with a 1K price tag I'm already fussing about how the canadian dollar has plummeted so bad that an apex is 630CAD now instead of 530. The amount of money I make hasn't changed, but the cost of anything from the US has risen a LOT. with a 1,000USD price tag, thats 1300CAD which pushes WAY beyond my price range. a pair of Kessil A160W are only 550CAD, and a Radion is still hovering at 750-800 for the non pro.

[Hexadron]

 

Because as sexy as it looks, it comes with a 1K price tag I'm already fussing about how the canadian dollar has plummeted so bad that an apex is 630CAD now instead of 530. The amount of money I make hasn't changed, but the cost of anything from the US has risen a LOT. with a 1,000USD price tag, thats 1300CAD which pushes WAY beyond my price range. a pair of Kessil A160W are only 550CAD, and a Radion is still hovering at 750-800 for the non pro.

 

Hah, preaching to the quire I'm also in Canada, and not thrilled with our dollar as of late! I heard so many figures thrown around for this fixture I wasn't sure which was closer to the final price, but I suppose only Kessil knows for sure at this point. Supposedly to be released this year, maybe the dollar will change by that time. Good thing is, no extra controller needed, as it's built in, so at least your saving a bit there

 

You're not crazy for wanting no banding/disco. That is my biggest pet peeves with LED, and one of the main reasons I chose the Kessil A160WE for my build. I was tempted a few times to venture to T-5's and MH just so I don't have to see 'the dancing spots' Good luck with your venture!

[farkwar]

When I built my Lumia it had spot lighting, not just banding.

 

A diffuser mixed all the colors.

 

You're thinking too hard.

 

Also if the cluster is in one long strip, like the Vertex Illumina, banding is greatly minimized.

[cocojakes]

You're not crazy for wanting no banding/disco. That is my biggest pet peeves with LED, and one of the main reasons I chose the Kessil A160WE for my build. I was tempted a few times to venture to T-5's and MH just so I don't have to see 'the dancing spots' Good luck with your venture!

 

Do you have any pics of your current setup? How do you like the 160WE's? My only concern is that you can only work the gradient between white and blue, and for normal daylight viewing I kinda prefer the old 20,000k MH look, with that slight purple white.

When I built my Lumia it had spot lighting, not just banding.

 

A diffuser mixed all the colors.

 

You're thinking too hard.

 

Also if the cluster is in one long strip, like the Vertex Illumina, banding is greatly minimized.

 

 

 

 

This is my current cluster, quite tight, but I get very noticeable banding still. I'm working on trying different diffusers, so we'll see how that works out. but I'm really starting to like this idea the more I think about it.

[Reefkid88]

If you're experiencing "banding" then id say raise the fixture. And yeah,besides the Vero the Luxeon M's are your next best bet. And if you're doing your cluster tight enough you could use a Lumia optic. and also 405-430nm is a good spectrum for growth and coloration,just so you know. Hyper violets are strong as hell.

 

I'm thinking about doing 1x 4k M,2x M RB's,2-4 ES Cool Blue's and 2 410nm & 430nm violets. Should make out for a KILLER retro with t5's.

[cocojakes]

If you're experiencing "banding" then id say raise the fixture.

Yeah, I came to that conclusion as well, and wish that I could raise the fixture, to see how it affects the banding, but I only have 8" of space between the underside of the hood, and the top of the water. The fixture is already as high as it can go without removing the hood. which would not only look bad, would result in no more fish, since my cat loves to go fishing.

as an FYI, this is my custom chip:

 

I think the fact that the LEDs are in rows (Violets, blues/cyan, whites, royal blue) doesn't help either, since you get a purple/green/white/blue stripes going

[Benny314]

The fixture your describing is the Lumenair by TMC.

 

 

 

I have seen these in use in person, and I can confirm they colour band like a bitch.

 

From what I understand most users seem happy with them and they carry a built in programmable controller. But they're expensive as all off the shelf units are and there have been a lot of reliability issues reported I believe.

 

After commenting on your previous posts, I still don't know how you see colour banding with your current setup. Those tight clusters should be fine, you must be supper sensitive as previously mentioned by fellow reefers or have mad surface agitation causing the light to be refracted as suggested by Dave of Nano box.

[cocojakes]

yeah I'm talking something similar to that, but with some heavy diffusing on everything other than the two whites, so that theres no shimmer from anything other than the white. I'll try and take a pic or video of the banding I see. Its nowhere near as bad as a friend of mine who has my first gen DIY LED pucks laid out in a star pattern with a central white, and blue around it.

He gets mad blue/white disco. I just get strips of colour in the shimmer. so a shimmer line isn't a solid hard line like from the sun, its 4 coloured lines next to each other. I feel like if I was able to put like 80 degree optics on it, and raise it up another foot, it might blend better, but with only 8 inches of canopy, thats pretty much out of the question. I feel like without going open top, or a weird canopy thats as tall as the stand, it'll be near impossible to get any light high enough to not have visible banding or disco.

I have high hopes that I can find a look somewhere along the kessil spectrum that I like, that way I can just get two kessil A160WE and be done with it. Because I think anything with a puck style like a radion, I'll notice the disco. Maybe thats why they recommend keeping them so high off the water. I'm gonna do some tests with my current light and see how raising it up affects it. Although obviously it can't stay raised since its attached to the underside of the canopy.

[blasterman]

The lumia chip could greatly reduce the disco/banding problem by scattering royals like a checkerboard on the PCB rather than rows. Having 4 different flavors of white doesn't help either. Not sure what's up with that, but it sure didn't encourage me to buy one. Are we lighting reef tanks, or the clothing aisle at Target?

 

A piece of lucite diffusion plastic should really help the problem. Same thing as frosted (sanded glass), but in plastic form. Milk plexi eats at least 50% of your light. Diffusers not so bad, but the materials are tougher to find.

 

The Kessil solves the problem most elegantly, but last time I checked their lights still use low CRI cool whites as a base color, and I'd rather have disco and banding rather than go back 10 years in terms of color quality.

 

I just stick with Luxeon M's with royals on either side of a neutral, and call it a day. Having a royal on either side of your white helps offset banding and disco because water ripples fill in the gaps kind of like being out of phase.

 

The worst banding and disco I've seen is from the common 120-160 watt models that now mix in red and green. Give me a fog machine and a disco ball will ya'.

[jedimasterben]

Having 4 different flavors of white doesn't help either.

Wait, what? The Lumia uses neutral and warm white.

 

 

Also, in Luxeon M news, it seems that Steve's has stopped selling their M on those massive 30x30 PCB and is back to a standard 20mm star.

[Reefkid88]

 

That's a pretty nifty little light. Any reason you opted for the use of a red (or is this a older set up?) ?

 

Have any pictures of it in use over a tank or anything ?

[cocojakes]

That's a pretty nifty little light. Any reason you opted for the use of a red (or is this a older set up?) ?

 

Have any pictures of it in use over a tank or anything ?

 

Yeah thats an older one, I used the red as part of OCW (660nm, 495nm, 470nm) red blue cyan.

 

I can try and dig up some photos of it over a tank. A friend is actually currently using it so that might be easier. I'll post some tomorrow hopefully.

[Reefkid88]

That's what I was thinking. It's awesome looking,it'd be killer for a pico lol.