Ebay "Seller Beware"

[BlueThumb]

Every now and then, when I get no takers here, I sell my used aquarium items on Ebay. It's been a while, and I guess during the time I took off from Ebay, there have been policy changes. In a nut-shell, it's great if you're a buyer but very risky for the seller. It is now way too easy for a buyer to perpetrate fraud and keep your item without paying. The barrier to entry on Ebay and PayPal have been proven porous...and very easy to manipulate and abuse.

 

My conversation with Ebay regarding a 1/4 HP Chiller I sold, after I found out PayPal was holding hostage the funds for 21-days.

 

"So let me get this right. Your new "Buyer Protection" means you want me, as a "Seller", to ship my expensive item across the country while you hold payment-pending for 21 days. And the clock doesn't start until I ship the item, which means I'm also out of pocket on shipping out the gate. So a buyer I've never met, gets to buy my items at a huge discount, on what is essentially a line of credit, and then get's to use the item for 15 days, and during this time can open a dispute, prolong, and abuse the generous policies you have made in favor of them, whose only real barrier to entry has been proven to be easily manipulated or side-stepped by fraud and loop-holes? Hmmm....TRANSACTION CANCELLED!"

 

Yes, I'm cancelling the transaction. Why in the world would I ship a $700 chiller in perfect working condition to someone I don't know in Florida, and leave my neck sticking out. NO WAY! Just read the posts from seller who got hustled...many horror stories awash on the internet.

 

Seller Beware

[GHill762]

I appreciate some of the changes as a buyer, some of the changes have been silly. From a seller's standpoint (never been an ebay seller) it's kind of ridiculous, but at the same time there's been a lot of shifty stuff happen via ebay and I think they're trying to cut down on that so people trust ebay more.

[sprayed99]

We have lost over 20K on ebay as a seller in the last few years. Over 5K in one transaction alone. I no longer use Ebay and push others to look at other avenues to sell their items. I actually very rarely use paypal after our account was hacked and it took over 60 days to recover a large amount of money.

 

To protect myself I have an account only used for paypal with small balance to negate this from happening in the future.

 

Modern day trade has made it very easy for us to buy and sell items, but has also made it simple for those people that are less than honest.

[BlueThumb]

After speaking with Ebay, as a Seller, I trust them even less. The customer support person actually acknowledged that I'm opening myself up to the possibly of expensive fraud but basically said it's the cost of doing business. I'd accept that if I were a power seller with an ebay store and a fat cash flow. But for selling things here and there, it's too much risk. The bottom line is I'm not going to extend a line of credit to anyone on Ebay. If Ebay/PayPal really wanted to protect the buyer, while also providing a good environment for the seller, they'd insure the transaction. They say they do that very thing, but, if you dig into the details, it's only under certain circumstances. For example, the only real circumstance the seller is guaranteed to be covered in the case of fraud where stolen funds are used. If it's a dispute opened by the buyer, the seller ultimately is on the chopping block. At the end of the day Ebay/PayPal will refund the customer from the sellers account. The seller carries a heavy burden of proof out the gate.

[csingh07]

I appreciate your comments. And just to set the record straight, I am not a die-hard ebay fan either. They have done quite a bit of things to me as a seller in the past (including terminating my seller account) that have made me despise how they treat their sellers. I still currently sell on ebay with an average revenue of ~$2000 per month.

But with all of this being said, what makes you think Paypal is any different? The money lock-out period you mention is not unique to ebay, it also pertains to young paypal accounts. It ensures that sellers do not get on ebay, list a bunch of phoney items, claim to ship them with false tracking nubmers, and wire the money out of the country and run. If I sell you an item and use Paypal to receive the money, Paypal provides you the buyer, a pretty similar level of protection to ebay. Once I ship you the item, what is stopping you from pulling an item-switch and return, claiming you never received it (even if I provide a tracking number saying that it was delivered to your address), or using it for 25 days and returning it because it was defective? Paypal still protects the buyer in all of these cases and requires a refund from the seller end.

 

If you sell high-end items, have them shipped with signature confirmation. Document all serial numbers of the items sent and be wary of the buyers if they have limited ebay purchases. It's unfortunate, but it is part of the risk of selling online.

[BlueThumb]

Very well said. However, I firmly believe Ebay/PayPal can afford to insure the buyer and seller against fraud-loss without freezing funds more than a couple days. The fact that they don't tells me a lot about how ubiquitous E-Fraud is and how Ebay/Paypal are unwilling to take on the risk and/or the associated costs of minimizing or eliminated the risk. They are not a poor company and get no sympathy from me.

 

I'm working with the buyer to try to go outside of Ebay but you may be right that PayPal may put a hold on this regardless. In that case, it's Craiglist for the chiller and CASH ONLY. I'd rather sell the Chiller in summer, when the market is abundant with buyers, than take this risk and headache on right now.

[Lawnman]

Every now and then, when I get no takers here, I sell my used aquarium items on Ebay. It's been a while, and I guess during the time I took off from Ebay, there have been policy changes. In a nut-shell, it's great if you're a buyer but very risky for the seller. It is now way too easy for a buyer to perpetrate fraud and keep your item without paying. The barrier to entry on Ebay and PayPal have been proven porous...and very easy to manipulate and abuse.

 

My conversation with Ebay regarding a 1/4 HP Chiller I sold, after I found out PayPal was holding hostage the funds for 21-days.

 

"So let me get this right. Your new "Buyer Protection" means you want me, as a "Seller", to ship my expensive item across the country while you hold payment-pending for 21 days. And the clock doesn't start until I ship the item, which means I'm also out of pocket on shipping out the gate. So a buyer I've never met, gets to buy my items at a huge discount, on what is essentially a line of credit, and then get's to use the item for 15 days, and during this time can open a dispute, prolong, and abuse the generous policies you have made in favor of them, whose only real barrier to entry has been proven to be easily manipulated or side-stepped by fraud and loop-holes? Hmmm....TRANSACTION CANCELLED!"

 

Yes, I'm cancelling the transaction. Why in the world would I ship a $700 chiller in perfect working condition to someone I don't know in Florida, and leave my neck sticking out. NO WAY! Just read the posts from seller who got hustled...many horror stories awash on the internet.

 

Seller Beware

As Csingh said they hold the money to make sure newer ebay sellers shipped the item. Something is missing here the person can't just cancel the item and keep the money. They have to return the item or send you something to show tracking. I have been burned many times by Paypal and Ebay buyers. A few years ago it was a PS3 I sold they said it was not working. They returned the PS3 but kept the 11 games and Paypal gave them there money back. Lets see last year I sold a fake gold necklace the seller said so they opened a Paypal case and wanted to return the item. So they sent the necklace back and kept the charm but still got all there money back. Next one was I sold a Apple gift card and the seller said the gift card had a zero balance and got there money back. I finally had enough and gave up SELLING on Ebay I still buy. The buying side of Ebay and Paypal is great it's the selling that sucks. I made a purchase last year thru Paypal and the vendor didn't want to fix a few problems so I opened a case. Well I lost that case thru Paypal and the seller won. I did a charge back against Paypal thru my bank and got 100% of my money back. Paypal in return took there money from the seller.

[sprayed99]

you might find this interesting:

 

With high end items I deal with the buyer direct. Here is how I do it.

 

I give the buyer my address, phone numbers, email, and also the information for the fraud division of my local PD. I get the same information from the buyer. I record all correspondence via email. I verify the information I receive from the buyer and their local fraud division of their local PD. If everything checks out I have the buyer mail me a cashiers check from a national bank or a USPS Money order, Both are easily verified once they are in hand. I record all information of the product being sold and have the shipper package the item. I also insure the item for the highest retail amount I can find. This way the shipper is totally in control over the safety of the item. I also have a form signed on the items condition by the manager of my local FedEx office. This is to verify that he saw the item and knows of the condition. I ask the seller to take the following pictures.

 

Box as delivered

Box as packed

Item after unpacking

Pile of packing material once removed from the box and after the item has been "unwrapped"

 

To this date I have had 3 claims with FedEx and all claims were settled within 48 hours after they received all my documentation.

 

This is the best protection I can offer for the seller and myself.

 

Yes, It is a major pain in the rear

Yes, I lose some business

Yes, Many buyers totally appreciate the lengths I go to protect both parties and the items being purchased.

 

I have nailed one guy with his local fraud division, but it was before my drawn out process and I was actually the buyer in the "scenario".

 

Bottom line guys, protect yourself and serious buyers will support the fact that you take pride in your product/business!

[Lawnman]

you might find this interesting:

 

With high end items I deal with the buyer direct. Here is how I do it.

 

I give the buyer my address, phone numbers, email, and also the information for the fraud division of my local PD. I get the same information from the buyer. I record all correspondence via email. I verify the information I receive from the buyer and their local fraud division of their local PD. If everything checks out I have the buyer mail me a cashiers check from a national bank or a USPS Money order, Both are easily verified once they are in hand. I record all information of the product being sold and have the shipper package the item. I also insure the item for the highest retail amount I can find. This way the shipper is totally in control over the safety of the item. I also have a form signed on the items condition by the manager of my local FedEx office. This is to verify that he saw the item and knows of the condition. I ask the seller to take the following pictures.

 

Box as delivered

Box as packed

Item after unpacking

Pile of packing material once removed from the box and after the item has been "unwrapped"

 

To this date I have had 3 claims with FedEx and all claims were settled within 48 hours after they received all my documentation.

 

This is the best protection I can offer for the seller and myself.

 

Yes, It is a major pain in the rear

Yes, I lose some business

Yes, Many buyers totally appreciate the lengths I go to protect both parties and the items being purchased.

 

I have nailed one guy with his local fraud division, but it was before my drawn out process and I was actually the buyer in the "scenario".

 

Bottom line guys, protect yourself and serious buyers will support the fact that you take pride in your product/business!

I would rather donate the item to Goodwill for a tax write off than go thru all of that. That is a serious PITA.

[sprayed99]

I would rather donate the item to Goodwill for a tax write off than go thru all of that. That is a serious PITA.

I said high end items, not aquarium chillers. Think in terms of Rolex and not Casio...

[ajmckay]

I would rather donate the item to Goodwill for a tax write off than go thru all of that. That is a serious PITA.

 

Hopefully by high end he's referring to stuff costing more than our typical aquarium stuff... I could see doing this when selling items for $X,XXX+ but possibly not for lesser value items (though it's all about what you value your time and effort at) I'm not selling anything that valuable anytime soon - mostly because I have nothing that valuable As long as it's disclosed in the selling description I would assume the seller can cancel the transaction if the buyer refuses. Although does asking for pictures of the box once the buyer receives it possible? Not sure what would happen if the buyer refused to provide...

 

But I do record serial numbers, take videos of working products, and pictures/videos of packing no matter what the value is so that there is less of a chance of fraud. I do agree, however, that I'm not in favor of Paypal holding funds for so long. eBay fees have also risen to the point where I'm significantly more likely to sell items locally wherever possible.

[Lawnman]

I said high end items, not aquarium chillers. Think in terms of Rolex and not Casio...

 

Hopefully by high end he's referring to stuff costing more than our typical aquarium stuff... I could see doing this when selling items for $X,XXX+ but possibly not for lesser value items (though it's all about what you value your time and effort at - as long as it's disclosed in the selling description I would assume the seller can cancel the transaction if the buyer refuses. Although does asking for pictures of the box once the buyer receives it possible? Not sure what would happen if the buyer refused to provide... But I do record serial numbers, take videos of working products, and pictures/videos of packing no matter what the value is so that there is less of a chance of fraud. I do agree, however, that I'm not in favor of Paypal holding funds for so long. eBay fees have also risen to the point where I'm significantly more likely to sell items locally wherever possible.

Ebay is 10% on the item and shipping fees. Paypal is 3% and a 30 cent transaction charge on every transaction. I started selling on Ebay when they would mail me a paper invoice every month lol

 

Ow and Paypal nor Ebay ever holds my funds. I get instant access to them every time it's for newer accounts or sellers with low numbers.

[sprayed99]

Although does asking for pictures of the box once the buyer receives it possible? Not sure what would happen if the buyer refused to provide...

 

But I do record serial numbers, take videos of working products, and pictures/videos of packing no matter what the value is so that there is less of a chance of fraud. I do agree, however, that I'm not in favor of Paypal holding funds for so long. eBay fees have also risen to the point where I'm significantly more likely to sell items locally wherever possible.

 

If the seller will not provide evidence I will not initiate a shipping claim or even consider any type of refund.

 

I did have a guy start a file at my local PD office for a $6,000 supercharger. Once all documents were provided by me. The PD reviewed it and they contacted the buyer and asked for proof of fraudulent activity. They received pictures from the buyer and I promptly started the claim process. FedEx obviously dropped the package and broke the inlet casting. The buyer was not refunded all the money, he was sent a new replacement from the manufacturer of the part and I refunded his shipping cost as FedEx sent me a check for the part cost and shipping.

 

Why the buyer went to my PD, I have no idea.

[BlueThumb]

Update:

Funds released and chiller shipped. I actually spoke with the buyer asked questions. She seemed legit (a real buyer) but her reason for purchase was sketchy. Then again, I've sold to some seriously kooky people on Craigslist with some bizarre reasoning. At the end of the day, their money was good...even if the story wasn't.

 

Back story:

The buyer pleaded with me after I told her I was cancelling the transaction. She offered to call Ebay herself and plead that the funds get released. The short of it is that Ebay did release the funds an hour ago. Apparently, since I took a 1-year break from selling, it dropped my status to a newby. Ebay, per request, re-looked my account and decided that I am in-deed in good standing. I know this because I called in to see if the seller really did call. I didn't get a straight answer (private information...blah blah) but I was told that they escalated my case after I told them I was cancelling. I was also asked to share my opinion with their security group no regarding my comments about rampant fraud. I laughed and said the following:

 

"First off - no. Because that is your job and not mine. If you'd like to pay me as a security consultant I'll happily guide you down the rabbit hole. Second, I can't believe that you haven't already heard this before, and if you haven't, it's selective hearing issues. My guess is that Ebay knows full well what's going on but turns a blind eye because it's all about dollars and cents. Are we done?"

 

Creating and incubating an ebay and PayPal account into good standing is not a challenge. With a group of people working together, you can buy and sell your way into bypassing most filters ebay uses, including seller filters.

 

Anyway, the simple answer to this is Ebay needs to insure both the buyer and the seller. Or, seems there is a business opportunity for an e-commerce tool that insures e-commerce transactions. If I knew what that was, I'd be on my way to a multi-millionaire.

[Eisernes]

I don't sell on ebay anymore because of their fanatical pro buyer policies. Recently I sold an item for $200 and I ate the $30 on the shipping. The buyer claimed the item was dirty beyond cleaning and put in a claim for the $200 plus a return shipping quote of over $100. Sounded like a scam to me. That would have been a quick $100 profit for them. Luckily I had taken tons of pictures before I sent it and when they realized I wasn't an easy mark they dropped it. I know if they pushed it though ebay always sides with the buyer. Still cost me a red mark on my perfect ebay rating.

[RK_tek]

I've been burned twice on $100+ transactions with eBay. It's CL only for that kind of stuff now. fTF and cash