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YOU SUCCESSFUL with Refugium's ? EXPLAIN !


ClownTriggerDude

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ClownTriggerDude

I've been researching the types of refugium that are either bare bottom and use mainly cheato for sucking up nutrients and to feed fish to "Miracle Mud" or sand bottom with
a variety of macro algae's.

 

I guess first of all, I don't see myself having a bare bottom with the cheato just floating around, as a refugium,....BORING !

 

So, those of you that are very successful with planted refugium's, please explain your system.

 

Please,....add photo's and video's ?

Describe in full details !

 


1- Why did you want one ?

2-DIY custom or did you buy a manufactured system and from where ?

3-How you created one ?

4-What size display tank do you have ?

5- All in one sump/refugium or separate systems ?

6- Size of sump ?

7- Size of refugium, the other stages and baffles ?

8- How old is yours ?

9-What plants ?

10- What critters are in yours ?

10- Did you use mud, sand or other and why ?

11- How your plumbing works ?

12- What for lighting ?

13- Flow of your pump ?

14- Acrylic or glass ?


Your success's and not so successful attempt's.

 

Your do's and dont's.

 

Products you like, don't like and why ?

 

And, what will you do next time ?

 

Regards,
Kevin

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You can see a picture of mine in my build thread. It hasn't changed much since then. I've added more rock if anything. I went for a little bit of sand and rocks. I have a couple types of caulerpa in it and some chaeto. I mostly have it for copepods. Once I can get a bigger tank, I plan to create a large refugium. Something with a deeper sandbed and a bit more structure. Something like a display refugium but I don't care to look at it. Mostly just so it is easier to clean. When I created mine, I just went with something similar to what I saw others had done and it works well. I should be harvesting the caulerpa once a week, but I tend to slack. If you are thinking about using a refugium as a prime way to remove nutrients, well that won't work unless you have one that is pretty large. I eventually had to get a skimmer once my bioload outpaced my refugium.

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ClownTriggerDude

I looked at your profile but did not see any pics, so please send me a link, would love to see them and the build thread.

 

This is such a difficult decision, as I HATE to create something and have it not work !

 

So far, people that have mud or sand love them or hate. 50/50 so far. I don't mine having another tank to keep clean, almost like a display. It's not my intent to have it to control just the nitrates, if it help's great, but other factors like a place for pods for the fish, pretty plants, macro's etc.....

 

The biggest issue is the cost of 30 (+) lbs of the "Miracle Mud" and that's for apx a 36" x 18" layout. $240 !

I know that Mike Paletta has used it for many years and likes it, but he still uses a skimmer and bio-balls, which does not make it a total "EcoSystem", but he has it on a sps tank and a BIG fish load with 6-8 feeding's per day !

 

But, the Ecosystems mud does contain a lot of minerals etc that helps out corals and other benefits, compared to just sand.

 

If I'm going to create a fuge, it will have to be large enough to do some good, or it's not worth the time and expense. With me using a 55g sump/fuge, I can make it at least,.....36" long and 15" wide, but it's the cost of that much mud.

 

What would you do ?

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I vote you skip the mud and just get some good livesand and plant the fuge with various macroalgaes and put a good amount of liverock in it. When I had my 120 gallon I had around 20 gallons of fuge and it made a significant difference in the amount of algae growth in the display and produced enough pods for all of my hungry fish. I had around 6 fish that mostly ate pods including various wrasse, mandarin, scooter blenny. If your fuge is large and planted and has plenty of liverock it will do a good job of exporting nutrients and providing food. Keep a reverse light cycle to help stabilize ph as well. There are other ways to get trace elements with supplements and water changes

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So far, people that have mud or sand love them or hate. 50/50 so far. I don't mine having another tank to keep clean, almost like a display. It's not my intent to have it to control just the nitrates, if it help's great, but other factors like a place for pods for the fish, pretty plants, macro's etc.....

 

The biggest issue is the cost of 30 (+) lbs of the "Miracle Mud" and that's for apx a 36" x 18" layout. $240 !

I know that Mike Paletta has used it for many years and likes it, but he still uses a skimmer and bio-balls, which does not make it a total "EcoSystem", but he has it on a sps tank and a BIG fish load with 6-8 feeding's per day !

 

But, the Ecosystems mud does contain a lot of minerals etc that helps out corals and other benefits, compared to just sand.

 

If I'm going to create a fuge, it will have to be large enough to do some good, or it's not worth the time and expense. With me using a 55g sump/fuge, I can make it at least,.....36" long and 15" wide, but it's the cost of that much mud.

 

What would you do ?

How big of a tank are you putting it on? Are you planning on going pure refugium for the filtration? Have you looked into Algae Scrubbers?

 

I have a refugium in my tank, but it's mostly for pod production, sponges, macroalgae, and a bit of pH stability. For those uses on my 40 breeder tank I have about a seven gallon refugium. If I wanted it to actually control nutrients reasonably well I'd probably need 20+ gallons dedicated to the refugium, but for my purposes it is fine.

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ClownTriggerDude

I'm just not comfortable yet with the mud sub straight at this point. I just have seen to many negative results. Even Mike Paletta has a skimmer and media reactors, which is not really the Ecosystems method to which he started out with back in 1998.

 

So, I may just use "live" sand (not a DSB) rock and buy pods and macroalgae's like you guys. I may try the Ecosystem on my wife's 29g that I just bought the CPR hang on the back fuge, that way it's relatively low cost, requiring less than 5 lbs of mud. Being gardeners, we like the idea of growing tall mangroves to add beauty to the entire tank.

 

It's going to take more time than I thought, as the stand I bought is actually for a taller 150g aquarium, so it's to short in height for our 125g.

 

Always,......something ! lol... :rolleyes:

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  • 3 weeks later...

Not to jacj the thread but I purchased a cpr aquafuge medium mp , about 20 gallond total and ifrom the start I was wanting to use eco miracle mud, but I also want to grow macro and have live rock as well, can I have the best of both worlds? Or could I modify my sump to hold a tray of mud and keep a display fuge area as well,??

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I'm just not comfortable yet with the mud sub straight at this point. I just have seen to many negative results. Even Mike Paletta has a skimmer and media reactors, which is not really the Ecosystems method to which he started out with back in 1998.

 

So, I may just use "live" sand (not a DSB) rock and buy pods and macroalgae's like you guys. I may try the Ecosystem on my wife's 29g that I just bought the CPR hang on the back fuge, that way it's relatively low cost, requiring less than 5 lbs of mud. Being gardeners, we like the idea of growing tall mangroves to add beauty to the entire tank.

 

It's going to take more time than I thought, as the stand I bought is actually for a taller 150g aquarium, so it's to short in height for our 125g.

 

Always,......something ! lol... :rolleyes:

hey trigger were some of the negatives? I'd have to assume like mud u stir it up it goes everywhere or maintmence a pain?
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ClownTriggerDude

hey trigger were some of the negatives? I'd have to assume like mud u stir it up it goes everywhere or maintmence a pain?

With either substraight, you don't want to stir it up much, but you do want critters to. If you don't have any, you can take a small rake to the surface, but just a small area at a time.

Refugium Debate: Julian Sprung For, Jake Adams Ag:

I've only watch part of the debate and will watch the rest tomorrow, but it looks like a great decision.

Thanks !

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I'm just not comfortable yet with the mud sub straight at this point. I just have seen to many negative results. Even Mike Paletta has a skimmer and media reactors, which is not really the Ecosystems method to which he started out with back in 1998.

 

So, I may just use "live" sand (not a DSB) rock and buy pods and macroalgae's like you guys. I may try the Ecosystem on my wife's 29g that I just bought the CPR hang on the back fuge, that way it's relatively low cost, requiring less than 5 lbs of mud. Being gardeners, we like the idea of growing tall mangroves to add beauty to the entire tank.

 

It's going to take more time than I thought, as the stand I bought is actually for a taller 150g aquarium, so it's to short in height for our 125g.

 

Always,......something ! lol... :rolleyes:

I remember meeting Micheal Paletta in the late 90's at the lfs I worked at. He and my boss were good friends and he came to share what at that time was a new direction in salt water aquariums, especially reefs. Our store set up a lot of fuges with miracle mud, and caulerpa in our customers tanks. Most of them also had DSB in the display tank as well. Quite a few of those tanks are still running as they were originally set up. That influenced me when I set up my system. Last May when I added a seahorse tank to my existing 36g reef, I decided to make that my fuge with lots of macros, and softies for nutrient export. With seahorses it is very advisable to not only use a skimmer but use an oversized skimmer so that is in my sump. Most folks don't use cheato or caulerpa in their displays with macros but they are big nutrient exporters so I integrated them into my display fuge. I also have blue scroll, dragon's breath, red grape caulerpa, red titan, rose petal and 2 other red macros that were traded for but I don't know what their names are. If you want to know more details my build links are in my signature. Good luck as you explore your options.

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My existing fuge has just started growing a volunteer caulerpa. I'm quite sure as fast growing it is, its illegal to own. I pull out clumps and strands of it regularly. I cull xenia in the tank regularly too. The prolifera doesn't seem to grow fast enough to be an ideal exporter, why that one is legal I'm sure (not to imply lawyers or lawmakers actually do any thinking).

 

Other than that, it is one big poop collector. I will never ever set one up again with intention of filtering, it doesn't do that.

 

 

 

I may one day do a display macro, sea grass, sea horse, pipe fish, garden eel, mangrove tank. It wont be a filter, just a theme tank, on a theme I find interesting.

 

That mud stuff seems like a really great way of collecting poop. I would assume a system of rotating trays might make it useful. Pull out an old tray of mud, feces, and detritus. Replace with tray of new mud, to collect more feces and detritus.

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Would the main way to make sure detritus and shit doesn't make its full way into the rest of the refugium is bynusing micron bags? And just replacing or cleaning them smi often? Also running a part time skimmer as well could reduce micro crap?

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Farkwar, my boss at the lfs did rotate out mud and that did work pretty well. I personally never used mud because I found it hard to justify the price for what you got. I'd rather dose my tank with what it needs rather than hope miracle mud provided it to leach out in just the right increments. As far as the macros trapping detritus and such, that can happen but the tanks our store set had power heads in the sump for brisk water movement which helped with that. We also never used cheato, only feather caulerpa which is less prone to hold detritus. Here in PA caulerpa is not illegal.

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Markburns43, I would think filter socks or micron bags would help a lot. Also if you place the skimmer after the fuge but before the return pump, the skimmer won't steal nutrients from the fuge.

 

One thing different about the tanks my boss set up in the late 90s and today's aquarists is the keeping of SPS. None of the tanks we set up back then had SPS so having an ultra low nutrient system was not the goal. Utilizing a fuge in a softie/LPS reef can work pretty well but is probably not the best choice for an SPS tank.

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When we say a low nutrient system, are we talking nitrates and phosphates? My thoughts would be putting a skimmer say part time after the fuge would steal other good things? So putting it in the first chamber where the filter bags would clean more waste product part time but not deplete a lot of nutrients for the fuge to absorb?

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I also wanted to say I guess having a fuge for me any way is that I like plants I come from a high tech plant tank so I wanted to incorparate that aspect into the reef but have my display a nice mixed coral display and a large refugium display but have it be a positive, like the video said there's more than one way to do something and both be the right way, now as the thread asks what is the most effect way to use a refugium, can there be a best of both worlds with wanting some demanding sps mixed in while depending on macro and either mud or deep sand bed?

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Yes, I was meaning nitrates and phosphates. I see what you mean about other beneficial things from the fuge though. Skimmers are even hard on pods which most of us want in our systems and if one is using miracle mud it would be counter productive to skim out the trace elements. I would agree that locating a skimmer in the 1st chamber would be better in that case.

I have never kept SPS as I don't enjoy monitoring alk and CA and Mg diligently. Some of the more forgiving SPS like birds nest and such I would think is very doable with macros. I just don't enough about the SPS corals that are sensitive to parameter spikes and drops to know how they would do with a lot of macros. You definitely don't see folks with big beautiful across colonies with lush beautiful macros mixed in. I'm guessing that they are not very compatible.

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I think this is a subjective question. What do you mean success? How does one measure success of a refugium? Does that mean it becomes a beautiful display refugium or do you mean it contributes something to the actual tank besides a haven for pods? Without actual testing and multiple different runs, it's hard to know.

 

The amount of nutrients able to be export by refugiums is high, but in order for it to be beneficial for a tank, the refugium should probably be around the same size as the display tank. A 3g fuge in a sump on a 20g system isn't going to do much.

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Tibbsy, you are absolutely right, there really is no scientific way to measure success. For me, I guess I measure success by being able to keep the animal, corals and macros that I want to keep. Since I have seahorses pretty much everything revolves around their needs. They are messy eaters, (that dirty up the water quality) so macros in some sort of fuge helps with that. If the fuge is integrated into their display tank then the macros can provide hitches and privacy as well. Most macros will still flourish in the cooler water that seahorses need. With the frequent WCs that seahorses need, (and yes I remember how in the '90s refugium were suppose to make WCs a thing of the past) but I don't subscribe to that with or without seahorses, iodine and iron are continually being replenished which is good for the macros. So for me the fuge concept works thus I consider it successful, at least in my tank.

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I am no expert in refugiums, but i do believe they work. I have a 60 gallon tank that use to just have cheato, and another macro in it along with my return pump and my sump was only a 10 gallon. Very simple, never had any algae in my display tank. took it off line to put a 20 gallon in it with a skimmer and filter sock. after about a month my nitrates went up to around 10 and a few patches of bubble algae. so i do believe they work.

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Just for clarification.

 

My fuge is filled with premium nano live rock. The tank had only live rock bones that needed seeding.

 

I have some sponges thriving down there, but I wouldn't call it cryptic. Theres a foot long bristleworm in it too, it was a foot last time i saw it.

 

Their creepout factor is exponential to size, dont mind not seeing it.

 

I tweeze all my asterinias i can catch and throw them in there. I used to have hundreds of stomatellas. Fish figured out babies were food, there are like only two adults i see now.

 

Chaetomorpha dies in it. And it catches poop. I'll make a video next time I flush it.

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