Want to bounce some ideas off the group - No3 reduction

[Tinpanva]

I'm not one for chasing the numbers, so to say this problem of mine has been going on for months is not exaggeration. Starting in January '14 No3 started climbing, .2 to .5 then jumping to 4ppm. In June it was up to 12ppm and since Aug it's been rock solid at 16ppm using red sea pro test kit. Also had my values verified at LFS. So I'm pretty sure they are high. I've taken all the usual steps to reduce it naturally. I have stopped using ammino supplements for the SPS, no longer feeding with coral food like reef frenzy & reef chilli. For about 4 or 5 weeks I jumped the water changes up to 50% which did cut the No3 in half only to have it raise back up within a week so I stopped doing that as well. My Po4 during this time was about .08 so I started using rowaphos and it stays down around .02 -.03 now (since feb '14). I'm starting to see a few of my SPS corals fade so I'm thinking the high no3 is starting to show itself. Not sure if this is related or not, but my Mg is elevated to fight bryopsis, so it's been at 1600 - 1700 ppm since about June. (Tech-M)

My tank is a 2.5 years old, it's a 29 gallon biocube. I do weekly 5 gal waterchanges. I feed fish freenzy daily which I rinse before each use. I have a media rack with filter pads that I change out twice a week, the media rack contains a bag of nuclear grade carbon, a bag of purigen, & a bag of rowaphos. The skimmer is a Aquamaxx HOB-1.

Finally, we are where I need to bounce the ideas around, 3 days ago I added 5 tbls of biopellets to a bag in my media rack. My plan was to use this as a way to lower the no4. But "friends" are suggesting Nopox or perhaps vodka dosing. I was always under the impression that once you started vodka dosing you were committed to it, and I was also concerned with a daily dose and what to do while I was away from the tank. I thought the pellets were the best option for me but now not so sure. I wanted to start small and see how it performed. Instructions called for 1 cup/50 gallons. I think the pellets need 2 or 3 weeks to develop the bacteria, so I left the rowaphos in until it's exhausted.

Thoughts, suggestions, or comments?

[sangheili]

Pellets are just a diff form of carbon (vodka) dosing. They work fine but need to be in a reactor and you need good skimming.

[Tinpanva]

So I won't get much out of having them in a bag in the high flow area (media rack)? As to "good skimming" you mean wetter?

[metrokat]

Good skimming meaning a beast of a skimmer.

[hey]

You aren't commited to vodka dosing once you start, when you stop you will have some bacterial die off but as long as you are skimming properly it gets pulled off and you won't see any big spikes.

[Tinpanva]

kat, does the Aquamaxx fit into that category? It's really the only thing holding me back from going with vodka. I'm just not sure where it ranks.

[ndrobey]

Maybe you are feeding too much fish frenzy, too often? It is possible there is a corpse somewhere in the tank? Have you tried vacuuming the substrate and rocks? Perhaps the tank is overstocked?

[farkwar]

Zeo!

 

 

But I would bet you a 10ml bottle of ZeoBak, that your nitrates are coming from your 2 year old sand.

 

 

 

Overstocked is just another way of saying under-filtered.

[Tinpanva]

Maybe you are feeding too much fish frenzy, too often? It is possible there is a corpse somewhere in the tank? Have you tried vacuuming the substrate and rocks? Perhaps the tank is overstocked?

I lost a sea hare about the same time things spiked, but if that was the culprit things would have dropped back down by now. Plus my banded shrimp does quick clean up of those type issues.

I actually use reef frenzy, and yes its very easy to raise no3 with that food but I've always used the same amount and demonstrated my feeding video to my local club, unanimous feedback was I'm not overfeeding. Bioload is high imho, 5 fish in a nano. That's why I run a bigger skimmer.

Tank is otherwise pristine, no GHA or nuisance algae. Just a little fading on a couple corals. With no3 at 16ppm I would expect a forest of green fuzz. Maybe the live rock has just reached a point it can no longer keep up?

[Tinpanva]

Zeo!

 

 

But I would bet you a 10ml bottle of ZeoBak, that your nitrates are coming from your 2 year old sand.

 

 

 

Overstocked is just another way of saying under-filtered.

 

Could be true, I never considered sand having a life span. TBH, the tank has been on autopilot for so long that I'm just not up to date on things like carbon dosing and I have no idea what Zeo is.

[farkwar]

Zeo is ZeoVit.

 

It is system of removing nutrients before they become nutrients.

 

Zeolite rocks adsorb ammonia and ammonium before it breaks down into nitrite,nitrate.

Biologically culturing bacteria with carbon based liquids, acetic acid mostly, pyruvic acid probably.

And adding trace elements and amino acids to provide nutrients to corals, sponges, and filter feeders that generally do not contribute to crap algae growth.

 

Im pretty skeptical of such things, but it works in my system. Works well.

 

Another advanced filtration method which will lower nitrates would be a Nitrate Reactor or sometimes called a Sulfur Reactor.

This works much like a bio pellet reactor, but instead of carbon, one uses sulfer to feed special bacteria that turns nitrate into nitrogen gas. The same bacteria can utilize iron or iron sulphite/iron pyrite to accomplish this same reaction.

 

Frequent partial water changes is the cheapest and least technical method of nitrate removal.

[Bingo1213]

Vodka is a tried and true method. Many people have used it and had great results, the same goes for sugar or vinegar. I use vodka because biopellets and zeovit are relatively new, there are unknowns with both of those systems. Running biopellets out of a reactor can actually be dangerous due to the fact that with out the pellets tumbling, hydrogen sulfide can build up and essentially nuke your tank if your are not careful. I would strongly recommend a dosing pump if your using vodka. They are on sale right now at bulk reef supply for around 50 bucks I think. You would want the 1 milliliter a minute version. That way you won't forget doses and they are also very exact. Also use the cheapest vodka available you will be able to stop any time you'd like. Just keep an eye on the tanks parameters right after stopping. If you are really worried about you can stop dosing slowly by lowering the dose.

[farkwar]

Running biopellets out of a reactor can actually be dangerous due to the fact that with out the pellets tumbling, hydrogen sulfide can build up and essentially nuke your tank if your are not careful.

Links to science articles, please.

 

Thank you

[Bingo1213]

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1956395

 

Here is one example of a case where it was a possibility. If you google biopellets and hydrogen sulfide many different cases come up where it is the only logical answer. The problem with biopellets is that there is no scientific research on the pellets themselves. There seem to be some good results, no results, and bad results from different users. No actual studies have been performed that look at the possible dangers of running the pellets incorrectly. For this reason I feel that the tried and true vodka, sugar, or vinegar are the best options.

[Mr. Microscope]

Biopellets take a while to kick in. You might want to wait to see how they effect things after a month to six weeks. My other thoughts are on feeding.

 

Perhaps switch to pellets and only feed a few at a time and make sure that they are all eaten. Also, only a few pellets per fish once every other day is fine.

 

Finally, at 2.5 years old, perhaps your sandbed is causing the problems. You may want to consider removing/replacing it.

[Tinpanva]

Well, I'm going to pull the pellets this weekend during my routine maintenance on the tank. Just seems the general concensus (in several forums) that this just isn't the most effective way to remove no3.

I also have strong suspicions it's tied to the sandbed. I used to have sand sifting goby, he kept in nice and tidy, but slowly starved. Most of my local club members that have seen my tank felt I was keeping it too clean and there wasn't enough to eat so when he passed there was alot if discussion on whether to vacuum or just leave it undisturbed. I left it undisturbed for months. Stared thinking this was my no3 factory same as you so started vacuuming small sections each week. I don't know if you've seen pictures of my tank (this month's TOTM) but that puppy is packed. Reaching "all" of the sand; not going to happen. At best only the front and sides against the glass.

Keeping that in mind, how will the carbon react with my sandbed if in fact is holding no3? Cyano explosion? If I go with vodka, should I continue with vacuuming? And lastly, should I remove the rowaphos as well as the carbon affects both no3 and po4? I've read some folks have great results with no3 reduction but still need some type of gfo to control po4. Without rowaphos, I read between .08 and .1 po4.

[Bingo1213]

I would continue to use the rowaphos, I use GFO and dose vodka with no ill results. Carbon dosing usually removes more nitrate than it does phosphates. You can try removing it at first and see if your phosphate levels drop, mine did but not enough so now i am back with GFO. As for the cyano, it is always going to be a risk when you start carbon dosing. Cyano is just bacteria and you are creating a perfect environment for bacteria to thrive! That said it wouldn't hurt to try and clean the sand a little, after all manual removal is always the best method.

[Benny314]

What's your cleaning routine for equipment? Are you using a sump or external canister?

Is there any corners where some crap has built up causing your issues.
Algae scrubber of mangroves might be a solution to help burn through it faster without algae break outs in the tank.

[CronicReefer]

I added a couple nessarius snails and vodka dosed for about two months and quit and my nitrates have remained <10 and I feed LRS Reef Frenzy daily for my lobster and clowns. It requires patience especially if you have a deep sand bed like I do as I saw almost no change till about one month in. There is also a nitrate reducing bacteria product called Instant Ocean Nitrate Reducer that I have heard many people have good success with.

[NorthGaHillbilly]

My bets on the sandbed, but that's probably not too suprising. With the courser grain sand detritus will quickly find its way inbetween the grains. Seeing the pictures of your tank, beautiful and flourishing, I would just say, whatever you do, go SLOW. Any major chances you do could have major repercussions

[Polarcollision]

+1 for the sand. Maybe try a conch or something else that will disturb the bed just a little at a time? Alternately, switch out a small portion of the sand quarterly.

[Tinpanva]

Just a quick update, started Vodka dosing. I did 4 days at .2ml a day then .3ml for another 4 days. No3 went from 16ppm to 12ppm, moving nice and slow just how I like it, last night started the .8ml dose for a week. Next scheduled water test is Saturday, but I'll more than likely do a random test this week just to monitor this dose.

 

Using the guide here http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/355078-vodka-dosing-guide/