Is it actually important to test during the cycle...

[RonLarimer]

I am setting up my 1st saltwater tank and in the next week I plan on starting the cycle... I understand what is occurring but I'm failing to see why you need to test to see the spikes.

 

Could you not add your live rock and sand, let the tank run for a week and then test your levels... add ammonia and verify it is processed? And if not rinse and repeat?

[Mariaface]

You could definitely do that, so long as you're proving there was an ammonia spike and that you've kept up ammonia so the bacteria that eat it don't starve before the cycle's done. The point of testing often is to make sure that starvation doesn't happen, and to be more certain where in the cycle you are and how hard it hit (which correlates with how large a bioload the tank will be able to handle afterwards). But if you add ammonia, test and find it at 1-2ppm, then test in 24h and find it all gone, you should be alright. Then you just need to worry about bringing nitrate down to a reasonable level.

[Marc.The.Shark]

Here's what I did...

 

Started new tank, 8gal. w/4gal. Sump/Fuge. I added roughly 7lbs of dry rock that I had for a couple years along with 10lbs AragAlive sand. Dropped in a small bottle of Dr. Tims & dosed ammonia to 3ppm, took a few days, 2-3 to get down to .25ppm ammonia. I then went to LFS & lucked up and got 3lbs of cured LR that a guy brought in that was tearing down his 10yr old tank, solid purple. I added that to my Fuge & dosed to 2ppm ammonia again, waited 2 days & checked it. Was about zero, dosed up to 2ppm again & checked in 24hrs, zero. Did it again just to be sure, again zero in 24hrs, along with zero nitrites/nitrates.Did a 20% water change, added some cheato to the Fuge & CUC, two days later a clown.

 

At about the 2 week mark I got a few diatoms on the sand bed & rocks, this was mild & only lasted about 3 days, CUC took care of it daily (3 snails, 2 crabs). I'm a little over a month in, have a few corals & a cleaner shrimp as well, 0ppm Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate. Added Purigen even though I detect no Phosphates either, but I'm using crappy API test kit for that till I get a low range Hanna. Ca is around 460.

 

I don't know what the magic formula was this time, maybe a combination of a few things, but the established LR I'm sure definitely helped. The tank is processing everything fine & no noticeable nitrates. Just wanted to share, take away from that what will help you. But like Mariaface said, you need to know when the tank can process 2-3ppm ammonia in 24hrs.

 

 

[Deleted User 8]

Marc the Shark is spot on. Also, you are new and need to get some water testing skills down--and the cycle makes for good practice.

 

Buzz

[seabass]

Adding ammonia is an important part of building up the biological filter for dry rock, but it can damage the non-bacterial life on live rock (affecting the diversity of life). And it's not necessary to add another ammonia source to live rock, you just have to stock your livestock slowly, over time (to allow the bacteria populations a chance to adjust to the new bio-loads).

 

Dry rock can be prepped by adding bacteria cultures and a clean source of ammonia (like DrTim's One & Only and DrTim's Ammonium) until it can process daily doses of ammonia. If you are doing a mixture of dry rock and live rock, it's best to prep the dry rock first and then add the live rock (as Marc did).

 

The nitrogen cycle has been established once ammonia and nitrite have become undetectable. However, I only test ammonia, as nitrite isn't very toxic at marine pH levels and it closely follows the ammonia spike. Before adding livestock, I test nitrate and phosphate to make sure that it is under 10 ppm and 0.03 ppm respectively. A water change can reduce nutrient levels if necessary.

[Deleted User 8]

I'm thinking ammonia is ammonia no matter if it comes from fish waste/decay or my bottle from Ace hardware. Add a fish to add ammonia or from the bottle? Hmm, in an unknown system, I will risk using the bottle over the fish. I mean really, dosing up the tank slowly with the bottle to check the bacterial cycle is really not much different than a couple clowns producing waste. Except it is much more controllable, and the clowns are not at risk. The primary waste product of fish is ammonia.

 

Unless I am missing something fundamental here. I guess one could make an argument that the bacteria that break down the more solid waste (scraps of food, detritus) into further ammonia need also to be established, but then that is when the argument of stocking slowly and feeding lightly comes into play.

 

Buzz

[seabass]

Hmm, in an unknown system, I will risk using the bottle over the fish. I mean really, dosing up the tank slowly with the bottle to check the bacterial cycle is really not much different than a couple clowns producing waste. Except it is much more controllable, and the clowns are not at risk. The primary waste product of fish is ammonia.

No, I'm not proposing to cycle (establish the nitrogen cycle) a tank with a live fish. I'm suggesting that the biological filter get established before adding any livestock. This could be by:

• using dry rock and dosing a bacteria culture and ammonia until it can process future ammonia sources (i.e. a fish)
• using live rock that has been fully cured in our own tanks (to verify that it's fully cured)
• or using a combination of biologically prepared dry rock and fully cured live rock.

However, I am proposing that we not add additional ammonia to a system that contains non-bacterial life (like fish, coral, or even live rock).

[Deleted User 8]

No, I'm not proposing to cycle (establish the nitrogen cycle) a tank with a live fish. I'm suggesting that the biological filter get established before adding any livestock. This could be by:

• using dry rock and dosing a bacteria culture and ammonia until it can process future ammonia sources (i.e. a fish)
• using live rock that has been fully cured in our own tanks (to verify that it's fully cured)
• or using a combination of biologically prepared dry rock and fully cured live rock.

However, I am proposing that we not add additional ammonia to a system that contains non-bacterial life (like fish, coral, or even live rock).

 

Gotcha. But what about a scenario where you really don't have properly cured live rock and you are new to the hobby? The term "live" rock is over-used, IMO. There is plenty of crappy rock out there that would not necessarily establish an adequate bio-filter, no matter what the LFS monkey says. New folks especially might benefit from actually testing (and witnessing) the cycle even at the expense of harming established life on the rock. I am also not convinced adding pure ammonia to simulate bio load is harmful to that established life.

 

This all assumes that nothing has been added to the tank other than "live" rock. You could really can do the same thing by adding livestock slowly over time. The bio-load would adjust itself accordingly quite nicely. But then new people often don't have the same concept of slow as more seasoned folks do.

 

Buzz

[seabass]

Testing the nitrogen cycle by purposely elevating ammonia can cause problems to the existing life. If the goal is to introduce biodiversity from live rock, I suggest that we not add additional ammonia. However, if the goal is simply to support a larger initial bio-load, then building up the bio-filter with ammonia can be done. But if that's the goal, I would argue that you could accomplish this with dry rock.

 

My suggestion is to take some sort of corrective action if the total ammonia rises above 0.1 ppm. This suggestion is also made by Stephen Spotte in his authoritative text, Captive Seawater Fishes.6 Values in excess of 0.25 ppm total ammonia may require immediate treatment, preferably involving removal of all delicate (ammonia sensitive) organisms from the water containing the ammonia.

Source: http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-02/rhf/index.php

 

My main disagreement with your argument is the toxicity of the concentration that you have proposed. Adding a small fish to properly, fully, cured live rock will not spike ammonia to the levels that you suggest. In many cases, you wouldn't be able to detect an ammonia spike at all.

 

I do agree that people sometimes misrepresent live rock. Some places will call some dry rock placed in a tub with some other rock that has an established bio-filter "live rock". And while you might argue that this rock does contain living bacteria (and might technically be "live"), this rock will not support the same bio-load that live rock collected from the ocean will.

[Mariaface]

Testing the nitrogen cycle by purposely elevating ammonia can cause problems to the existing life.

 

This is true! Which is why it's suggested to use ammonium instead of ammonia (still available for bacterial purposes, but bound up so it doesn't harm fish), and something like Prime to keep it in ammonium form for 24-48 hours at a time.

[farkwar]

Nope.

 

Unless you are blind.

 

Your eyes are the best test kit until after you add your first coral.

 

It's not important or necessary. It's fun for first timers to titrate and play scientist though.

[seabass]

This is true! Which is why it's suggested to use ammonium instead of ammonia (still available for bacterial purposes, but bound up so it doesn't harm fish), and something like Prime to keep it in ammonium form for 24-48 hours at a time.

Without Prime, some of the ammonium will convert to the more toxic ammonia form. I've read that the effect is about half the duration that you mentioned. This would require repeated doses until the nitrifying bacteria can adjust to the ammonium in the tank. I'm not disagreeing with you, just pointing out to others that dosing ammonium is not a totally safe alternative. Again, I'm just not comfortable dosing it (ammonium/ammonia) with livestock in the tank.

[Mariaface]

Without Prime, some of the ammonium will convert to the more toxic ammonia form. I've read that the effect is about half the duration that you mentioned. This would require repeated doses until the nitrifying bacteria can adjust to the ammonium in the tank. I'm not disagreeing with you, just pointing out to others that dosing ammonium is not a totally safe alternative. Again, I'm just not comfortable dosing it with livestock in the tank.

 

Yehp! I didn't mean Prime would make it safe to start adding fish or anything, just that if you started off with really good, maybe uncured live rock, it'd minimize the damage to the livestock already in/on it. It helped me keep most of the stuff from Gulf Live Rock intact. :]

[Tamberav]

I don't test the cycle of dry rock (I do for soft cycles to make sure ammonia doesn't get to high and kill critters). I just let it run its course with some fish food to rot and create ammonia. When the cycle ends, diatoms/GHA show up to let me know. Ofc if you cycle with the lights off... then... tests may be needed. Good luck!

[Azedenkae]

I do test during the cycle (sometimes) just out of curiosity. Really you only need to test it once you think the cycle is done, via ghostfeeding and testing the response of the aquarium.

[GHill762]

I tested during cycle of my first tank, second tank I just went with it and didn't do any testing. when I thought it was ready I threw a couple frags in I didn't care about and watched them over a couple days, a few days later I transferred everything over.

[Azedenkae]

I tested during cycle of my first tank, second tank I just went with it and didn't do any testing. when I thought it was ready I threw a couple frags in I didn't care about and watched them over a couple days, a few days later I transferred everything over.

Yeah sometimes it's better to just go with it. These living beings can be and are very resilient. Sometimes it is better to just go with it. :3