Stumped on the Cycle

[CCXGT]

So I'm on Day 15 of my 10G cycle.

 

I kick started it by adding bottled bacteria and dosing 3ppm Ammonia daily and kept the tank at 85°.

 

The Ammonia bottomed out by the 2nd day.

 

Once the Nitrites went sky high (Day 6/7) I backed down the dosage to 2ppm daily.

 

I've just spotted the first Diatoms developing so I tested the water and I've got:

 

0.25 Ammonia

1 Nitrite

160 Nitrate

 

So I was thinking, could it be a good idea to lower dosage further? Or just keep going as normal?

[tibbsy07]

Bring your temperature down. The bacteria that are responsible for the cycle don't like it that high - Keep it 78-80. Also, STOP dosing ammonia. It's cycling. Don't prolong it.

[CCXGT]

Bring your temperature down. The bacteria that are responsible for the cycle don't like it that high - Keep it 78-80. Also, STOP dosing ammonia. It's cycling. Don't prolong it.

The bacteria actually thrive in much higher temperatures than 78-80. I was aiming for around 90 but couldn't get there.

 

I will stop dosing Ammonia, I was under the impression that providing the bacteria with food would speed their growth rate up.

[markalot]

If this is the typical fishless, or in case of a reef, lifeless cycle then I think maintaining 2ppm should be ok as that follows the freshwater recommendations. Only once you are ready to add life should you stop ammonia, clear out both ammonia and nitrites, water change to get nitrates down below 5 and then add "life".

 

 

Whenever I see someone mention .25 ammonia I think API, which has a tendency to always show .25.

 

Bacteria needs food so the population will be directly related to the amount of food available (ammonia, nitrite, etc). If you stop dosing and add one fish after a few days you will only have enough bacteria to support 1 fish.

[CCXGT]

If this is the typical fishless, or in case of a reef, lifeless cycle then I think maintaining 2ppm should be ok as that follows the freshwater recommendations. Only once you are ready to add life should you stop ammonia, clear out both ammonia and nitrites, water change to get nitrates down below 5 and then add "life".

 

 

Whenever I see someone mention .25 ammonia I think API, which has a tendency to always show .25.

 

Bacteria needs food so the population will be directly related to the amount of food available (ammonia, nitrite, etc). If you stop dosing and add one fish after a few days you will only have enough bacteria to support 1 fish.

I don't spose there's some magic formula which will give me an estimate for the bioload of a single Perc Clown..?

[markalot]

I don't spose there's some magic formula which will give me an estimate for the bioload of a single Perc Clown..?

 

Not that I know of. I would think 2ppm would me more than enough though.

[CCXGT]

 

Not that I know of. I would think 2ppm would me more than enough though.

When the Nitrates vanish, should I bother doing the massive water change? Or just keep adding Ammonia until I'm ready to get any livestock?

 

I imagine the tank will be at it's 'purest' just after the water change.

[tibbsy07]

The bacteria actually thrive in much higher temperatures than 78-80. I was aiming for around 90 but couldn't get there.

 

I will stop dosing Ammonia, I was under the impression that providing the bacteria with food would speed their growth rate up.

Only the Nitrobacter species thrive in warmer water (38C/100F). Nitrosomonas species and Nitrococcus species thrive in water that is 20-30C or ~68-86 degrees F. 85 isn't too warm for them in that they are going to die, but I would still drop the temperature down a bit and let things settle.

 

As far as the growth rate, the bacteria have a finite growth rate (they can't undergo more than X amount of divisions in a certain amount of time no matter what you give them). They also can only metabolize and utilize a finite amount of ammonia/etc. at any given time. I think in this case you actually have a LOT of Nitrosomonas and Nitrococcus species, which are important for the ammonia - nitrite breakdown which is why your ammonia disappears. Unfortunately, you've likely got so many that they are competing the Nitrobacter out, which are important for nitrite to nitrate reactions. Stop dosing ammonia for a couple of days and let it settle. Give the Nitrobacter time to catch up.

[cju84]

+1 to what Tibbsy said. If you're looking for advice, listen to the guy.

[acrab78]

Run the tank like you will once it is complete and holding fish, as far as temp... no reason to crank the heat up...

[CCXGT]

Well Tibbsy... I lowered the temp to around 81, I never slowed the ammonia dosage down though..

 

Anyways, it's now Day 20 of the cycle:

 

Ammonia is at 0.5, I just ran out of test tubes...

 

Now I need to do a 100% water change, keep up the ammonia and monitor the tank for a week or two, right?

[acrab78]

Quit dosing amonia... Do a 50% water change due to nitrates and add some fish or whatever you want.

[CCXGT]

I'll do the water change the day before I get my first fish, probably Saturday.

 

I was expecting to need to add a CUC... But apparently not at the mo..

 

I'm rather excited about this.

[tibbsy07]

Yeah your nitrites are down - nitrates will catch up as they are consumed. Ammonia will fluctuate if you keep adding it. I'd stop dosing, let the tank stabilize for a couple of days, do a small water change and then get a fish.

[brandon429]

if you will post a full tank shot we can tell how much ammonia you have

 

sounds hard to believe I know

 

its more reliable than api test kit

 

so post it, we'll make the call, then go compare to a non api kit and post back

 

 

love this game its fun. If you have coralline on your live rocks you dont have ammonia, all that before we even get pics~

 

its not that ammonia and coralline have a thing in common, but im predicting for this tank it surely does. if your rocks are bone white id agree you may have some ammonia, but I think your ammonia has been zero since first post. off your above readings I think you may be working with aged live rock from a pet store, lets see, curious

[CCXGT]

Right..

 

Temp is down to 78°.

Stop dosing ammonia.

Wait a few days.

Do a biggish water change.

Get first fish.

 

1 last question... I do have some CP Elite which hasn't been used at all during the cycle.

At what point should I add it?

[tibbsy07]

Add it before the fish. Put it in now and let it chill for a couple of days and get working. As for ammonia via picture, no. Maybe, MAYBE you could tell based on coralline, but that assumes you had any to begin with, that your camera and light are optimal, etc.

[CCXGT]

if you will post a full tank shot we can tell how much ammonia you have

 

sounds hard to believe I know

 

its more reliable than api test kit

 

so post it, we'll make the call, then go compare to a non api kit and post back

 

 

love this game its fun. If you have coralline on your live rocks you dont have ammonia, all that before we even get pics~

 

its not that ammonia and coralline have a thing in common, but im predicting for this tank it surely does. if your rocks are bone white id agree you may have some ammonia, but I think your ammonia has been zero since first post. off your above readings I think you may be working with aged live rock from a pet store, lets see, curious

I originally started with about 6lb Dry Rock and went to pick up some LR pieces from the LFS, one just happened to have coralline on it.

 

Blues:

 

Whites:

 

Small bit of LR with Coralline on it:

[CCXGT]

Add it before the fish. Put it in now and let it chill for a couple of days and get working. As for ammonia via picture, no. Maybe, MAYBE you could tell based on coralline, but that assumes you had any to begin with, that your camera and light are optimal, etc.

I've squeezed the CPE in.. The bag is larger than I imagined.

 

I rinsed it out for a minute or two under the tap, as instructed. Water looked like oil but I spose that's why you rinse it...

[Polarcollision]

+1 to everything Tisby says. He knows his bacteria. :-) I think I see a brown film on the sand? Maybe? Hard to tell from pic. Anyways that brown film and then hair algae is the final proof life is able to be supported in your tank.

[tibbsy07]

If you have ANY reservations about your water, wait a week or so and then get your fish. Rushing leads to bad things in this hobby. An extra week won't hurt and will give you more time to gauge the baseline of your tank. No NEED to do this, but if you are unsure, put the brakes on a bit

[CCXGT]

+1 to everything Tisby says. He knows his bacteria. :-) I think I see a brown film on the sand? Maybe? Hard to tell from pic. Anyways that brown film and then hair algae is the final proof life is able to be supported in your tank.

Apart from a few diatoms on a piece of rock, I'm not sure about this brown film, probably just my crappy camera.

[CCXGT]

If you have ANY reservations about your water, wait a week or so and then get your fish. Rushing leads to bad things in this hobby. An extra week won't hurt and will give you more time to gauge the baseline of your tank. No NEED to do this, but if you are unsure, put the brakes on a bit

I'm not against holding off a few days, turns out we're having a big Christmas Do... Perhaps a new lil fishy won't appreciate 15 people running around the house like idiots.

 

Anyways, should I hold off on the water change until it's ready for a fish or do it now?

[Polarcollision]

I'm not against holding off a few days, turns out we're having a big Christmas Do... Perhaps a new lil fishy won't appreciate 15 people running around the house like idiots.

 

Anyways, should I hold off on the water change until it's ready for a fish or do it now?

 

You have diatoms on a rock so your tank is able to support more complex life now. Personally, I'd stop dosing ammonia and start feeding the tank mysis and pellets as if you had a fish in there. I'd also start doing water changes to lower nitrates below 10 (ideally below 5).

 

Don't add a fish if your nitrates are still at 160. 40 is the commonly quoted high range for fish-only systems, but even that level is high and unkind to me. Nitrates are the least harmful nitrogen waste, but they'll still damage liver, kidneys, gills, etc of fish.

 

Just a thought that Tibsy can weigh in on, maybe the high nitrates are partial cause of your ammonia reading from die-off?

[CCXGT]

 

You have diatoms on a rock so your tank is able to support more complex life now. Personally, I'd stop dosing ammonia and start feeding the tank mysis and pellets as if you had a fish in there. I'd also start doing water changes to lower nitrates below 10 (ideally below 5).

 

Don't add a fish if your nitrates are still at 160. 40 is the commonly quoted high range for fish-only systems, but even that level is high and unkind to me. Nitrates are the least harmful nitrogen waste, but they'll still damage liver, kidneys, gills, etc of fish.

 

Just a thought that Tibsy can weigh in on, maybe the high nitrates are partial cause of your ammonia reading from die-off?

So just start doing water changes to get the Nitrates to lower.. Got it.

 

I would switch to adding food rather than Ammonia but I actually don't have any yet.

 

I'm just picking it up with the fish next week.