Help Silencing CAD Lights Overflow

[evan38109]

I have a beautiful new CAD Lights Artisan II 70 gallon aquarium. There's a lot I love about it, and their support has been great. It's a gorgeous tank, so I hope that no one takes this as an attack on CAD Lights or second guesses a purchase because of it.

 

But I can't get this system to quiet down. I have a lot of noise in the pipes underneath the aquarium. It sounds like there's a toilet constantly flushing.

 

Here's a video with all equipment off except the return pump:

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzYQETjdGygmRHJNY1ZpQjBrX0E/view?usp=sharing

 

Am I correct in thinking the "plumbing system with Durso drain with Modified Herbie Style" is basically a Durso overflow with an emergency pipe? That's how I'm treating it, but I wouldn't be surprised if this is totally user error.

 

The first response of every forum post about this kind of thing is generally that there's too much flow, so I measured how long it takes to fill up a one-gallon jug from the overflow. I got a consistent 32 seconds over five trials, which gives about 112.5 gallons per hour. I've always heard 3-5x turnover -- 210 to 250 gal / hour for this system -- but wisdom may have changed. Is 112.5 gal / hour too much for a 1 1/4" Durso? (ok, 32mm, since the plumbing is metric...)

 

I've tried slowing the flow further by putting my finger over the outflow, but that doesn't help with the noise either.

 

I've also tried adjusting the ball valve from full open to as close to a siphon as I can get it. And adjusting the water level. And moving the pipes around.

 

I've also tried to adjust the ball valve for a Herbie-style siphon. No luck.

 

And just waiting a week for things to break in.

 

And tonight, I finally received some metric piping to try and introduce 45 degree angles instead of the 90 degree angle at the bottom of the big drop from the tank. It helped a little, but not much.

 

I think I'm totally missing something, and it's probably obvious to all experienced reefers. Any suggestions?

 

Thanks in advance...

[Lawnman]

Where is the noise coming from the overflow up top or the major drop down the pipe? Almost sounds like there isn't enough turnover and it's trickling down inside the drain.

 

Is the noise less wih the valve all the way open?

[evan38109]

The most noise is definitely coming from the pipe down below the tank.

 

With the valve full open, it doesn't make a difference to the flushing sound inside the pipes, but it does reduce the whooshing sound at the Durso's air hole and, to a lesser degree, the gurgling from the water in the pipe hitting the sump water. I'm a lot less focused on those secondary sound sources for now. With the sump doors closed, you can only hear them about six or eight feet away. Compare that to the pipe noise, which you can hear from the bedroom. Down the hallway. With the door closed.

 

Should I look into a stronger pump? Got any reliable, quiet recommendations for a 70G with about 52" head?

 

Thanks!

[Speaker73]

Fluval SP4 is a great pump from what I've heard. Going to get that when my Jebao DC9000 goes kaput.

[jedimasterben]

You should still be looking to 3-5x tank turnover through the sump, that hasn't changed (less or more and you reduce the efficiency of skimmers, heaters, etc).

 

From your main drain, there should be no bubbles coming out of the pipe, it should be 100% water, and the 'emergency' drain (which btw isn't an emergency drain, it's way too small) should have just the smallest trickle of water coming from it. This will silence the pipes.

 

Now, you say that there was a 'flushing' noise? If the water level in your overflow box going up and down or is it constant? How far is the water falling from the overflow grate into the overflow? Can you snap some pics of that? Basically get the whole plumbing

[evan38109]

Wowzer, thanks for the rapid response, everyone!

 

Here's a video of the overflow box:

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzYQETjdGygmcTJhOEpYTnF2V3M/view?usp=sharing

 

Apologies for the poor lighting and hair dryer in the background - we're getting ready to leave town for a wedding.

 

The water level in the overflow box is constant. The drop is maybe two inches, and there's not much noise from the top of the tank.

 

It's definitely a waterfall noise in the lower pipes. I say "flushing" because the noise reminds me of a running toilet, constantly flushing.

 

I haven't tried to enlarge the airhole, but I have tried the ol' add an airline trick to get more air in the pipe. I went all the way up to 1/2" tubing, just for the heck of it. No difference, but I'm not opposed to going back with a drill and trying to enlarge the hole.

 

I've also played with the bottom out of the water of the sump by dropping the sump level. The only real difference is that there's more noise from the drain water hitting the sump. I've also tried a bit of a "reverse Durso" in the sump area in case the noise was really from air needing to escape the drain pipe.

 

I'm tempted to tear out the old pipes and rebuild the plumbing for a real Herbie. While I've experimented, the "emergency" standpipe is too long for the trickle approach now. It's at the top of the overflow box, above the weir. The ball valve is also way too sticky for any kind of fine adjustment, so I'll need a gate valve (or a way to connect the 1 1/4" that I've got to the metric pipes). And a float switch at the top of the overflow box tied into the Apex controller, because that "emergency" pipe really is too small...

 

Does anyone know offhand if there are any imperial bulkheads that would fit the holes for the main and emergency standpipes? It would be a lot easier to rebuild on plumbing with better availability.

 

Thanks!

[jedimasterben]

How large was the reverse durso you built? I have a 1" drain on my tank and it took a 3" PVC sanitary tee to kill the noise draining into the sump.

 

There are no real bulkheads that will fit the holes that CAD drilled in the tanks.

[evan38109]

H'okay, judging by the posted-and-deleted messages I saw on this thread and the PMs I received, it seems that I've stumbled onto a bit of a known issue.

 

So here's what I'm going to do:

 

First, I'm going to pick up a stronger return pump. If that doesn't help with the noise, then at least I'll have a backup pump sitting around.

 

Second, if that doesn't fix it, I'm going to look into rebuilding the plumbing a little bit, and I feel like I know enough to do that now. Since I can't find all the metric pieces I need, I'll use metric-to-imperial converters right after the bulkheads. I'll also add a float switch set to turn off the return pump in order to compensate for the potentially undersized "emergency" drain, depending on how its used.

 

And finally, I believe that if we want good merchants, we also have to be good customers. I'm not going to call this "crap" and I think I can work with it. Overall, I've been pretty happy with both CAD's product and service. So:

 

Hey! CAD Lights! Several customers think you make awesome tanks but are a bit disappointed in the plumbing. I've seen you do a great job iteratively improving your products year after year. I hope to see some more awesome stock plumbing options by the time I go shopping for my next tank, ok?

[Eckozulu]

How large was the reverse durso you built? I have a 1" drain on my tank and it took a 3" PVC sanitary tee to kill the noise draining into the sump.

 

There are no real bulkheads that will fit the holes that CAD drilled in the tanks.

There are bulkheads that fit the main drain. I didn't even have to sand my 1" bulkhead.

 

But here are some links of a couple people the modded the plumbing of the cad tanks. I ended up using a metric to standard union adapter for my return and 2nd overflow.

 

http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/342489-my-cadlights-artisan-nanobox-hybrid-sps-reefcouple-new-shots/

 

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2253535&highlight=cadlights+artisan

 

here is where I got my metric adapters:

 

http://flexpvc.com/cart/agora.cgi?product=PVC-Fittings-Metric-Adapters

 

And here is a pic of my plumbing now:

 

 

 

Hope this helps.

[Lawnman]

There are bulkheads that fit the main drain. I didn't even have to sand my 1" bulkhead.

But here are some links of a couple people the modded the plumbing of the cad tanks. I ended up using a metric to standard union adapter for my return and 2nd overflow.http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/342489-my-cadlights-artisan-nanobox-hybrid-sps-reefcouple-new-shots/'>http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/342489-my-cadlights-artisan-nanobox-hybrid-sps-reefcouple-new-shots/http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2253535&highlight=cadlights+artisan'>http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2253535&highlight=cadlights+artisan

here is where I got my metric adapters:http://flexpvc.com/cart/agora.cgi?product=PVC-Fittings-Metric-Adapters'>http://flexpvc.com/cart/agora.cgi?product=PVC-Fittings-Metric-Adapters

And here is a pic of my plumbing now:http://s1344.photobucket.com/user/eckozulu/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps09bf2887.jpg.html'>

Hope this helps.

This the Artisian cube? Totally different than there 45 70 and 100 gallon systems. The link from RC is for the cube and the bulkheads he linked do not fit the 45 70 or 100 gallon systems.

[Eckozulu]

First link from Alex is a 70g. Mine is a 50g cube. Cad says the 45 shallow and 50g use same plumbing. And from what Alex describes (42mm) sounds like that is the same too, but I'm not positive.

 

Good question for cad.

[CAD-Aqua]

Hi, Evan

 

Thank you for posting here and I thank CAD owners for responding and helping out.

 

a few quick questions and checks. assuming that the noise isn't coming from the return tube (which is fully pressurized).

 

make sure that the drain tube is submerged below the water line of the skimmer chamber (chamber #1).

 

if you are using Herbie style, make sure to remove the Durso head. its not glued on and can be slipped right off.

 

(for Herbie) dial down the ball valve 1/8" of a turn at a time to ensure that the water level inside the overflow is somewhere between the main drain and the emergency drain.

 

Thanks

Scott

[evan38109]

Ooo, those are some great sumps, Eckozulu. Definitely some inspiration there. I'm impressed by how much you fit in the space while keeping it neat and tidy.

 

Scott: Check and check. The noise is definitely not coming from the return tube. It is fully pressurized with no leaks. The drain tube is also fully submerged. You should be able to see that at the end of the video in my first post with air bubbles entering the sump.

 

At this point, I'm waiting for the friendly UPS man to bring more parts. I'll have some experiments later in the week and will post the results.

 

Thanks everyone!

[Eckozulu]

Thanks bro, update?

[nismo_sky32]

I'm having the same issue with my new 50 gallon cube. Wondering what you came up with. Any updates?

[evan38109]

Hey all, sorry for disappearing! I kept thinking, "I'll post when it's working," and then I'd hit another delay.

 

It's been three weeks. After six online orders, at least that many trips to the hardware store, hundreds of dollars in parts and tools and a bout of pneumonia, I've learned one very important thing: I suck at plumbing.

 

Tonight, I thought I was ready to finish it up. I have all the parts measured, fit, cut and ready to go. Then I tried to open the PVC glue for the first time. An hour later, the glue is still stuck shut and I've done one helluva number on my hand.

 

Can plumbing be cursed? Haunted?

 

At any rate, here's what I've learned. Hopefully it will help someone.

 

1. There are (at least) two standards for metric PVC: DIN and JIS. These parts are DIN. This part worked:

 

FlexPVC.com part #8697-040

 

These did not:

 

FlexPVC.com part #8229-030

BRS part #207933

CoralVue part #ROP-BM

 

2. A stronger return pump definitely helped. I went with a Fluval SP4 tied to a BRS economy gate valve to trim it down to about 300gph. Eventually, I plan to build a manifold to run a media reactor and recirculate extra flow through the refugium. The Durso is quieter with the bigger pump, and the flow is also enough to allow me to use the (quieter, when I get it tuned in, for a short period) Herbie drain pipe configuration. As a bonus, even though it's a much larger pump rated at 1822gph, it's quieter than the stock pump.

 

3. Everything the Internet knows about Herbie drain pipes is true. For starters, it's super hard to tune it in with a sticky ball valve. I couldn't get something stable for more than a few hours with the stock valve, and even a better metric ball valve (CoralVue.com part #PVC-DUNION-BALLVALVE) still took hours to get in the neighborhood and wasn't stable for a full week. I also suspect that not gluing the PVC allows extra air to make it in the pipes and cause more noise. I'll test that hypothesis as soon as I get this darn glue open. The plan is to use a metric adapter to 1 1/4" imperial PVC right after the bulkhead, then a gate valve and imperial PVC into the sump.

 

More to come. Stay tuned!

[Lawnman]

Hundreds of dollars in plumbing parts when you bought a turn key system. sorry to hear this Evan.