Please Help! Dying 6yo Female Clown

[teamhapo]

I'm alternately angry and terrified. We have a big, beautiful female clown that has been with us since we started the tank. She is half of a mated pair - wild caught maroons. She has gone through tank moves, tank mate deaths, tank changes, and several anemone.

 

We went to our LFS Sunday and tested our water. We have battled nitrates for a long time, they said again that they were sky high (like crazy high). Our fish have all done fine though, so they said to bring it down slowly with a biofuel system. They also advised us to change the sand and do a water change and get our tanks cleaned up. Finally suggested removing some rock to increase air flow. We asked if this was smart to do all at once and they said absolutely.

 

So we moved the pair to a QT and started working on cleaning it up. Got everything changed out as suggested. Put her back in (didn't float her - guessing that may be our mistake) and she started swimming around happily. That night she was laying on her side at the the bottom and her mate was nudging her a bit. Last night she swam some more but went back to her cave and laid down. We figured she was stressed a bit from the changes but would recover.

 

This morning she is in terrible shape and we have no idea what to do. Her normal deep maroon is a reddish brown, I can see through her top fin, her mouth is slack ( though she seems to be breathing normally ish). Her lateral line is raised and she has these small white lines coming from her gills. This girl is like a puppy to us - she swims to see us in the morning and has so much character. We just can't let her die!!!!

 

We went from black to white sand (live sand) and took out two large rocks. Should we put her in QT? Dip her? Anything we can do or is she already gone????? What do we do about our mated male if she doesn't pull through?

[GTi]

I'm no expert but I would do an ammonia test.

 

Also, a good sized water change couldn't hurt if you match salinity and temperature.

 

Good luck!

[metrokat]

Ammonia most likely. Your tank is going through a mini cycle. Pull her out and into good water. Hope she recovers.

[teamhapo]

Never mind. She's dead. Thank you for following up with me. Could the ammonia spike been from the live sand?

[GTi]

Sorry to hear that.

[teamhapo]

Me too. She was a great old girl. What do we do with our male now? Ken reminded me that they actually have been together and we're older than six. He's the only one left in the tank now.

[metrokat]

 

The sand has your bio filter. Changing it out slowly would have been the key. Changing it out all at once is okay too provided you monitored the basic nitrogen cycle parameters. Sometimes there's not a blip but any tank that has been established will go through havoc when you switch out the sand.

 

AS for the male, you could try to find him a small companion who will eventually become the male as he changes to alpha.

[teamhapo]

Stunned. We should have known better than to do ANYTHING all at once. This is the second we've lost a a long term fish after the LFS said it was ok to do something we weren't sure about. Supposed to be one of the best in the area. We should have listened to our instinct. And I need to find a new store.

 

Last up - should I give the male time to change to female? I've heard everything from three weeks to a year. What do we do to protect him from any ammonia spike? Pull him to qt? Another water change? With our high nitrates are we running a secondary risk of shocking him?

[joy13]

You can use prime to bind the ammonia so it isn't as toxic. Nitrates aren't toxic to fish in higher numbers but the ammonia is. Nitrates will give you algae that can make your tank look like a jungle. Ammonia will burn the fishes gills and make breathing difficult.

 

Finding a new store isn't the key most stores are out to make a buck, the key is research. I have passed up great bargains because I didn't know if something would work in my tank came home researched and researched then decided no it wouldn't work or yes it would work. This forum is great for researching if you can't find something by searching start a thread chances are there is someone that will be able to help you.

[teamhapo]

The little guy is swimming near the top and struggling for breath too. We're headed to buy prime as soon as a store opens. Thank you, folks. Really going to miss her. She was almost 5 inches long, and just a grand dame. I am also frankly horrified that we put her (and him) through this on blind stupidity. We owed her better than that after all these years. Thanks again.

[Snow_Phoenix]

The little guy is swimming near the top and struggling for breath too. We're headed to buy prime as soon as a store opens. Thank you, folks. Really going to miss her. She was almost 5 inches long, and just a grand dame. I am also frankly horrified that we put her (and him) through this on blind stupidity. We owed her better than that after all these years. Thanks again.

 

Pull out your last clown and set up a QT bin/tank immediately or you'll lose him too. You cannot afford to wait too long - even to get Prime - if he's gasping, that already means he's straining to breathe.

[teamhapo]

Brand new water or mix the water?

[Snow_Phoenix]

Brand new, but match salinity and temp.

[teamhapo]

On it now.

[markalot]

Change the water, regularly, you have a new tank now that is not cycled. If you have a smaller tank fill it with water near the same temp and move the fish, or do a near 100% water change in your current tank and get ready to do another large change in hours, not days.

 

I am very sorry for your loss, this happens in salt and freshwater all too often from bad LFS advice, so I feel the need to go over a few critical points everyone should make sure they know.

 

1. The cycle is a process, not a word. If you don't understand what it means you need too. Bacteria lies on the sand and the rocks and if you remove the sand and the rocks you remove the bacteria and you are basically running a new tank again. It's so critical to understand the entire process so you can recognize horrible advice.

 

2. LFS employees can't be trusted. The store has to pull from the pool of workers just like everyone else and unfortunately it's rare that they actually find people that are knowledgeable. It's even rarer that the store itself insists on hiring only educated people, but lets face it, at the prices we demand they really can't afford to hire top shelf people. This is not to say all stores are bad, but you have to know how things work before you can determine if they can be trusted and then their advice is not really needed. This hobby challenges us to be the experts.

 

Again, so sorry this has happened.

[teamhapo]

Really fabulous points, and a great reminder. I would add one to it - don't get overly confident....ever. You never know it all all the time.

 

We've been at this a long time, cycled for four months before ever adding a critter, then spent two months with a cleaner crew before we really got started years ago. We've had a stable tank for years, fought off fin rot after an injury, and made it through lateral line disease on a desjardini tang after goofing feeding (based on lfs advice). We thought we were experts, and we were wrong.

 

One dumb decision on poor information without researching has had devastating results. I am heartbroken and furious with myself for making such a ridiculous decision. We knew better, and are paying a tremendous price. I see people talk about their fish dying like it's no big deal, but we fed and played with these two every day for years. I only hope we have enough time to save the little guy, and that someone else will see this and remember that patience and humility in this hobby are more than virtues - they are necessity.

[markalot]

Really fabulous points, and a great reminder. I would add one to it - don't get overly confident....ever. You never know it all all the time.

 

We've been at this a long time, cycled for four months before ever adding a critter, then spent two months with a cleaner crew before we really got started years ago. We've had a stable tank for years, fought off fin rot after an injury, and made it through lateral line disease on a desjardini tang after goofing feeding (based on lfs advice). We thought we were experts, and we were wrong.

 

One dumb decision on poor information without researching has had devastating results. I am heartbroken and furious with myself for making such a ridiculous decision. We knew better, and are paying a tremendous price. I see people talk about their fish dying like it's no big deal, but we fed and played with these two every day for years. I only hope we have enough time to save the little guy, and that someone else will see this and remember that patience and humility in this hobby are more than virtues - they are necessity.

 

Good point, not sure I've handled the over-confident part for myself yet.

 

For whatever reason I would be most upset over losing my clowns. I'm not sure why that is. It's not fish size as I have a lot of larger fish, just something about the personality. Maybe the movie?

[teamhapo]

Exactly! I don't know why, but the clowns are just so special, and seem so...fun, maybe?

 

That said, every death has hit me. Even a snail or crab dying of old age tears me up. But losing 'Bertha' is particularly hard, I'm guessing for a few reasons. They were so sweet together - even when we had to quarantine him after our purple lobster snipped his tail she swam right at the glass next to the QT so she could see him until he was ready to come back. We worried about putting him back in but she immediately went back to him and snuggled in. The maroon clowns are so tough, and so beautiful, and she was just huge - great weight and almost 4-4 1/2"! And of course her personality was outstanding - such silly clowning! As soon as the lights came on she would be shimmying about the tank until she was fed- even when we had her in the big tank with other fish. Don't even get me started on her landscaping habits. Didn't matter how lovely our sandbed looked, she was rearrange rocks and sand to her heart's content. She would play with the anemones, and she was never shy about cruising the tank. She'd come to the top of the tank and check us out and eat mysis from our hands before shimmying along our fingers...she really was like a puppy. Just devastating to lose her no matter what, but especially to know we did it to her, and made her suffer is soul crushing.

 

The little guy is in clean water with matching salinity and temp to main tank now. Also pulled the nessarius snail out. On the lookout for our crabs to get them yanked. Hubby is at the fish store waiting for them to open to pick up some prime and get the tank cycling. We have gorgeous live rock, so prime and lots of water changes for us to try and save as much as possible. Cross your fingers for us. Will post an update in a bit.

[Tamberav]

Sorry to hear about your clown My oldest current fish is just a plain looking occy clown. I think I have had her maybe 5 years now. Even though she is just a normal clown and all my others are designers, I would hate to lose her as she has been through a lot with me.

 

There are a lot of knowledgeable people on this forum and it sounds like you really care about your inhabitants. I hope you decide to stick around with us.

 

Maroon clownfish are more difficult to pair since they can be very aggressive. When the time comes, I would use an acclimation box to let them see each other but prevent injuries. Some clowns instantly seem to pair and others can be little buttheads. In some cases, the larger maroon will kill the smaller one.

 

They look something like this, but you could probably make your own out of eggcrate. A breeder box may work too since the male will be small.

 

[metrokat]

Monitor ammonia in the tank which has the little guy. It's new water and that's a bioload right there. Have plenty of water on hand for changes.

[tibbsy07]

It should also be noted that at 6 yo, a captive fish like a clown is pretty old. In the wild a lifespan of 6-10 years is the best case scenario, more realistically it's 3-6 years. Animals in captivity often, and usually, have lower life expectancy than their wild counterparts. We can't rule out ammonia, and that may have been what started the rapid decline of your old fish, that it just couldn't cope - evidenced by the fact the smaller, younger clown is still fighting, though struggling.

[teamhapo]

Update: Ammonia for sure. Wish we had paid attention yesterday and started testing - we might have been able to save her instead of assuming it was just a little stress. And you are very right, tibbsy07 - she was healthy as a horse, but her age definitely made her susceptible. Our tank has been stable for so long with no plans for additional life we didn't even have an ammonia test kit. Was up to 8ppm. We'll keep testing and wait for the cycle to complete. Really, really kicking ourselves for a rookie mistake. Little bit is doing better. He is not at the top of the QT and his breathing has slowed. There is nothing in the new tank but clean salt water. He is definitely looking for his rocks, but I'll take it. I'm going to see if I can find a local reefer or LFS that has an established QT tank or even a regular tank without aggressors in case he starts struggling in QT and we have two tanks we're struggling to keep from crashing...has anyone tried this with any success? Thanks everyone for your help. Keep you posted.

[Tamberav]

It should also be noted that at 6 yo, a captive fish like a clown is pretty old. In the wild a lifespan of 6-10 years is the best case scenario, more realistically it's 3-6 years. Animals in captivity often, and usually, have lower life expectancy than their wild counterparts. We can't rule out ammonia, and that may have been what started the rapid decline of your old fish, that it just couldn't cope - evidenced by the fact the smaller, younger clown is still fighting, though struggling.

 

I am not so sure about that... the lifespan in the wild is 6-10 but some clowns have been known to live 25+ years in captivity. 15+ years is not that uncommon.... tank disaster just usually strikes before then.

 

I believe he oldest perculas in captivity are 35+ years and still alive.

 

Ofc everyone could be liars but I doubt it.

 

http://reefbuilders.com/2013/10/15/20-year-pair-black-ocellaris-clownfish/

[Tamberav]

Update: Ammonia for sure. Wish we had paid attention yesterday and started testing - we might have been able to save her instead of assuming it was just a little stress. And you are very right, tibbsy07 - she was healthy as a horse, but her age definitely made her susceptible. Our tank has been stable for so long with no plans for additional life we didn't even have an ammonia test kit. Was up to 8ppm. We'll keep testing and wait for the cycle to complete. Really, really kicking ourselves for a rookie mistake. Little bit is doing better. He is not at the top of the QT and his breathing has slowed. There is nothing in the new tank but clean salt water. He is definitely looking for his rocks, but I'll take it. I'm going to see if I can find a local reefer or LFS that has an established QT tank or even a regular tank without aggressors in case he starts struggling in QT and we have two tanks we're struggling to keep from crashing...has anyone tried this with any success? Thanks everyone for your help. Keep you posted.

 

I am quarantining 8 fish in a uncylced 20g. Ammonia reads around 2ppm (last I checked before a WC) but fish have been fine for weeks now. I dose prime once every day and do a water change every 3 or 4 days.

[teamhapo]

Yeah, I've heard 7-10 for maroons specifically, but some much longer depending on care and, you know, smart moves by their caretakers....

 

But I also had a lab who was supposed to be a 10-13 year gal...she lived to be 20 years old and was still active and happy and had all her teeth. So who really knows with life expectancies?