Cycle in 3 days?

[gus6464]

Been a while since I've done this so I am not sure if my API test kit is messing with me. I setup the tank on Friday with live rock I purchased from a guy in the local forums that had it in 50g drum. I used a 20lb bag of Fiji pink live sand and then used filtered ocean water to fill up the tank. I have been dosing Nite-Out II since Friday. The API test kit is pain to see if ammonia is 0 as the color looks too damn close between 0 and 0.25. Nitrite and Nitrate have been showing 0. I dropped a bunch of spectrum food pellets in yesterday to do a check and today ammonia is showing exact same as yesterday before I dropped the pellets which I think is 0.

 

So do I do my CUC order from reefcleaners now? I am still waiting on parts for my light so tank won't have light until the weekend.

[PaulBuxton]

If the cycle is working you should be seeing nitrate build up.

The basic chemical process is

Ammonia -> Nitrite -> Nitrate

 

You remove the Nitrate with water changes (or other methods). If you do not have anything specifically setup to remove the nitrate then you should be seeing it build up.

 

How old is the test kit?

[gus6464]

If the cycle is working you should be seeing nitrate build up.

The basic chemical process is

Ammonia -> Nitrite -> Nitrate

 

You remove the Nitrate with water changes (or other methods). If you do not have anything specifically setup to remove the nitrate then you should be seeing it build up.

 

How old is the test kit?

 

Test kit is less than 6 months old. Thing is that since I put in live rock that might have already been cycled plus the ocean water plus the nite-out II the tank might have insta-cycled and since it has nothing in it how can nitrate build up? I will do another ammonia spike tomorrow to be on the safe side.

[PaulBuxton]

Nitrate should build up from the process of the ammonia you add (by putting food in) being turned into Nitrite and that being turned to Nitrate. You need to monitor all 3 chemicals.

What you should expect to see is the ammonia spike, then the Nitrite and then the nitrate. If you only monitor the ammonia, it may be that it hasnt formed yet (through decomposition of food), or it may be that it has been converted to Nitrite but not yet been converted to Nitrate. You should have both Ammonia and Nitrite as close to 0 as possible, and keep your Nitrate levels in check (also as low as possible) with water changes, or other means.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/8/chemistry

 

Don't rush things, it is better to wait a while and add livestock when the tank is settled.

 

You may want to watch the tank for a while first just to see what hitchikers you have got. If you have something like a mantis shrimp adding a clean-up crew could be the equivalent of simply hosting a mantis shrimp buffet!

[farkwar]

Are you growing algae?

 

Algae cant grow in toxic amounts of ammonia.

 

You get the CUC to clean that up. If you have nothing to clean up, why buy a clean up crew?

 

If you just use your eyes, you can get an aquarium nitrogen cycle going without testing once.

[Mariaface]

If you're having trouble registering ammonia buildup, either the food isn't providing enough or your bacteria's handling it. You could try using Prime (or something similar that binds ammonia) to relatively safely add pure ammonia until you reach a concentration of up to 2-3ppm. From there, your nitrifying bacteria will feast and the cycle will get going. I suggest the Prime in case there are organisms on the live rock you want to keep alive, because ammonia is toxic and the reason you're cycling is to be sure your tank can handle its eventual bioload.

[gus6464]

If you're having trouble registering ammonia buildup, either the food isn't providing enough or your bacteria's handling it. You could try using Prime (or something similar that binds ammonia) to relatively safely add pure ammonia until you reach a concentration of up to 2-3ppm. From there, your nitrifying bacteria will feast and the cycle will get going. I suggest the Prime in case there are organisms on the live rock you want to keep alive, because ammonia is toxic and the reason you're cycling is to be sure your tank can handle its eventual bioload.

 

 

Are you growing algae?

 

Algae cant grow in toxic amounts of ammonia.

 

You get the CUC to clean that up. If you have nothing to clean up, why buy a clean up crew?

 

If you just use your eyes, you can get an aquarium nitrogen cycle going without testing once.

 

Just little bits of diatom on the rocks.

 

If you're having trouble registering ammonia buildup, either the food isn't providing enough or your bacteria's handling it. You could try using Prime (or something similar that binds ammonia) to relatively safely add pure ammonia until you reach a concentration of up to 2-3ppm. From there, your nitrifying bacteria will feast and the cycle will get going. I suggest the Prime in case there are organisms on the live rock you want to keep alive, because ammonia is toxic and the reason you're cycling is to be sure your tank can handle its eventual bioload.

 

Thanks I will try that. Ace Hardware near me sells ammonia with no surfactants so I will give that a try. How much ammonia per gallon would you recommend?

[Mariaface]

Do you know your net tank volume? I'd suggest adding a couple of drops to the tank in an area of high flow (maybe a drop for every five gallons, just to make sure you're not overdoing it at first), testing the concentration after an hour, and going from there until you can maintain it at 2-3ppm. Again, make sure you're binding the ammonia if you want to keep hitchhikers alive. When you can come back after 24h and the concentration has dropped to 0, you'll know your tank can handle ammonia. And when all you can register in your tests is nitrate, the cycle's finished and you can do a large water change.

 

Are you currently using filtration media like carbon or Purigen? Because they'll adsorb dissolved organics and inhibit progress in the cycle by starving the bacteria.

[gus6464]

Do you know your net tank volume? I'd suggest adding a couple of drops to the tank in an area of high flow (maybe a drop for every five gallons, just to make sure you're not overdoing it at first), testing the concentration after an hour, and going from there until you can maintain it at 2-3ppm. Again, make sure you're binding the ammonia if you want to keep hitchhikers alive. When you can come back after 24h and the concentration has dropped to 0, you'll know your tank can handle ammonia. And when all you can register in your tests is nitrate, the cycle's finished and you can do a large water change.

 

Are you currently using filtration media like carbon or Purigen? Because they'll adsorb dissolved organics and inhibit progress in the cycle by starving the bacteria.

 

My net tank volume is roughly ~39g. I have nothing inside the tank except two RW-4's.

[Mariaface]

Ah. In that case, don't start the cycle until you've got surface area for the bacteria to colonize. You can cycle with dry rock/sand first, then introduce a smaller amount of live rock so that your hitchhikers can spread onto the base rock and into the sand. They'll be more likely to survive the move into your tank if the existing bacteria can take care of the die-off. And if you don't get live rock, you'll still have a cycled tank and no pests.

[gus6464]

Ah. In that case, don't start the cycle until you've got surface area for the bacteria to colonize. You can cycle with dry rock/sand first, then introduce a smaller amount of live rock so that your hitchhikers can spread onto the base rock and into the sand. They'll be more likely to survive the move into your tank if the existing bacteria can take care of the die-off. And if you don't get live rock, you'll still have a cycled tank and no pests.

No I meant as far as equipment I only have those 2 RW-4's. Theres ~50lb of live rock in the tank as well with 20lb of Fiji Pink arag-alive.

[Mariaface]

Okay, then. Prime it is! If you want to speed things up for the sake of the critters, I know I've had great results using Seachem Stability and other members have used Dr Tims or Microbakter

[gus6464]

Okay, then. Prime it is! If you want to speed things up for the sake of the critters, I know I've had great results using Seachem Stability and other members have used Dr Tims or Microbakter

 

Yeah I have been dosing Nite-Out II which works superbly on my freshwater tanks.

[farkwar]

 

 

 

Just little bits of diatom on the rocks.

 

 

 

Well, then they will obviously starve and die. Thus starting your cycle.

 

Algae will start to grow when the ammonia is gone.

 

Add your second CUC.

 

If they dont die in a month, add your first trial fish.

 

In a month if those dont die, add your first trial $10 corals.

 

Etc.

[aviator300]

Okay, then. Prime it is! If you want to speed things up for the sake of the critters, I know I've had great results using Seachem Stability and other members have used Dr Tims or Microbakter

I use Bio Spira by instant ocean. It's the exact same thing as Dr Tims one and only but costs half as much.

 

Actually Dr Tim Hovanec developed Bio Spira when he was working for Instant ocean and then started his own company (Dr Tims Aquatics) to sell it under the name of Dr Tims one and only.

 

Both products carry the same exact patent numbers which were issued to Dr Tim Hovanec.

[farkwar]

If I had an employee that did that, I would be pretty pissed. Pretty sleazy maneuver.

 

Must have been a while ago before IP lawyers were numerous.

 

Bet they dont let that happen again.

[farkwar]

And how the Hell does one get away with patenting bacteria in the first place.

 

They already existed.

 

 

The Patent Agency is run by morons.

[aviator300]

And how the Hell does one get away with patenting bacteria in the first place.

 

They already existed.

 

 

The Patent Agency is run by morons.

While i was bored (and unemployed Ha) I did tons of research on Dr Tims aquatics (including talking at length to Dr Tim himself) after having problems with "Dr Tims one and only" bacteria.

 

It seems that before he came along, the only identified aquatic denitrifying bacteria was "Nitrobacter" and "Nitrosomas". Well, good ole Dr Tim did years of research and was able to identify a previously unknown bacteria which he named "Nitrospira". Dr Tim wrote his Doctoral thesis on this research and it was published in a leading scientific journal (name escapes me now). This bacteria accounts for over 50% of the denitrifycation process in the home aquarium (there are other, stronger strains of bacteria used in sewage treatment, etc).

 

Since Dr Tim was the first person to identify this bacteria, he received a proprietary patent on the name. That means that anyone can culture and use the bacteria in a product, but only Dr Tim can market the name of "Nitrospira" in a product and claim his research to back it unless he was employed by them when he developed it.

 

Hence Instant ocean is able to add and market "Nitrospira" as an ingrediant in its product "Biospira" however since Dr Tim owns the patent, he can Market it under any name he wants such as "Dr Tims one and only".

[gus6464]

While i was bored (and unemployed Ha) I did tons of research on Dr Tims aquatics (including talking at length to Dr Tim himself) after having problems with "Dr Tims one and only" bacteria.

 

It seems that before he came along, the only identified aquatic denitrifying bacteria was "Nitrobacter" and "Nitrosomas". Well, good ole Dr Tim did years of research and was able to identify a previously unknown bacteria which he named "Nitrospira". Dr Tim wrote his Doctoral thesis on this research and it was published in a leading scientific journal (name escapes me now). This bacteria accounts for over 50% of the denitrifycation process in the home aquarium (there are other, stronger strains of bacteria used in sewage treatment, etc).

 

Since Dr Tim was the first person to identify this bacteria, he received a proprietary patent on the name. That means that anyone can culture and use the bacteria in a product, but only Dr Tim can market the name of "Nitrospira" in a product and claim his research to back it unless he was employed by them when he developed it.

 

Hence Instant ocean is able to add and market "Nitrospira" as an ingrediant in its product "Biospira" however since Dr Tim owns the patent, he can Market it under any name he wants such as "Dr Tims one and only".

How does Nite-Out II use it as well? Nitrospira is also the active bacteria in that product too.

[farkwar]

Is that its scientific taxonomy name?

 

 

The more I learn about this guy, the less I care for him.

 

Uses California taxpayers money for his education. Uses IO to build his "product"(that already existed). Patents it.

 

Then takes his proprietary knowledge and opens up his competing company.

[Mariaface]

I'm not sure I understand the negative perspective... He got an education (lots of people use taxpayer money for education, including every American public school student), became the first person to discover a bacteria aquarists depend on while he was employed, then realized he could market that and did. Where's the issue?

[aviator300]

How does Nite-Out II use it as well? Nitrospira is also the active bacteria in that product too.

Good point. The answer is "i don't know"

[gus6464]

Well I dumped 2 whole cubes of frozen food into the tank. 4 hours later and the API is still showing 0 ammonia and 0 nitrate.

 

Ohh and I definitely triggered a bacterial bloom with the amount of food I dropped as my water is cloudy now haha.

[farkwar]

Mariaface,

 

When a private party person or corporation takes public funds to make something, the product should belong to the public.

 

Not then turn around a price gouge the people who paid for the product in the first place.

 

 

 

Genentech did the same thing with human insulin. They promised that the result would be far less expensive than porcine insulin, to receive public funds to develop human insulin. Then it costs 90 times what porcine insulin costs, when it hit the market.

 

The same with these private companies putting up eagle and raptor killing windmills. Multi billion projects, funded by us the taxpayer, so that the owners can get fat profits off of those who paid for the windmills in the first place.

 

Its just theft, plain and simple. Those who pay for a product's development should reap the rewards of that product.

[khuzdul]

I am not sure where public money and patents comes into this. When he was earning his PHD, he identified that phylum Nitrospira were the active nitrite-oxidizing bacteria in aquatic systems. The information from his research is freely available in peer-reviewed journals, and you can download the PDFs off of Dr. Tim's site. Anyone who wants to can go out and breed whatever nitrospira they want and put it in whatever aquatic system they want, and they can also use the scientific phylum name Nitrospira however they please.

 

AFAIK, Dr. Tim's patents were developed when he was working as the Chief Science officer at Aquaria Inc. That is not public money. The specific bacteria identified in the patent, which were sufficiently isolated from it's natural environment, with a specified and described industrial use, and specified and described method for use. The information is not commercially exploitable until the patent expires, but in exchange the information is freely available due to the patent system, which is how the patent system is supposed to work.

 

If the complaint is whether it is ethical to patent naturally occurring bacteria (or naturally occurring genes isolated from tumor cells that were harvested from an unwitting medical patient), that is a different matter!