Designing cube sump

[Nstocks]

Hello,

 

I'm designing my sump that will support a 130L display tank with a refugium only. (though it might be a good idea to allow room for a skimmer)

 

I want to keep it very simple, but I'm not sure if this is too simple in terms of flow. I think the first part will work where the drains (25mm) bottom up forcing out the bubbles before overflowing into the 4" filter sock. (95mm hole cut into acrylic sheet supported by 30mm glass bracing)

 

The next chamber could house activated carbon or other media, before going into the refugium.

 

Should I split the refugium in half (vertically) to increase flow? The compartment between the return and drains is an award spot and due to the placement of the pipes it's probably not such a good idea to put the return pump almost directly under the actual return.

 

I'm planning on having the sump 400mm high, but would 350mm acceptable instead? (so I have more room in the cabinet)

 

[farkwar]

Return chamber should be over.

 

You dont want it pulling from the refugium chamber when it gets low.

 

Your drain chamber can be much smaller. 2 inches or whatever your drain pipe diameter is. Have it flow up, and over into and down the sock.

 

My refugium is one big poop catcher, its a toilet. And when I flush it, it flushes into the display. Since its designed like everyone elses, ill assume everyone elses is a poop catcher too.

 

Im omitting that toilet in all of my future builds. And putting the biggest skimmer that will fit in its place.

[Nstocks]

Good point about the return! I remember seeing people use baffles with egg crate to stop any algae getting into the return pump.

 

I know there's a big line between skimmer and no skimmer with refugium... The way I see is it the skimmer pulls out everything, even the things we want which is why supplements are needed. A refugium only is considered "natural" and can be better for corals...

 

Feel free to add on this discussion .

 

If I did omit the skimmer, I could probably make the sump much smaller and allow for auto top up with a slim RO jug? 125L display though, is a auto top up worth it?

 

Return is designed like that due to the layout of the overflow box (below).

 

[Lawnman]

Return chamber should be over.You dont want it pulling from the refugium chamber when it gets low.Your drain chamber can be much smaller. 2 inches or whatever your drain pipe diameter is. Have it flow up, and over into and down the sock.My refugium is one big poop catcher, its a toilet. And when I flush it, it flushes into the display. Since its designed like everyone elses, ill assume everyone elses is a poop catcher too.Im omitting that toilet in all of my future builds. And putting the biggest skimmer that will fit in its place.

Kept mine is a big toilet as well. I just use a 20x14x12 tank no baffle nothing.

 

My sump and I have a cube tank. http://s915.photobucket.com/user/Lwnman/media/Snapbucket/14F523CF.jpg.html'>

[farkwar]

A skimmer is really a foam fractionator.

 

It does the same as wind and waves on the rocks.

 

I have driven along the highway going to Monterey, and on a windy day have seen huge billowing balls of foam, from the ocean, cross the highway.

 

That's natural.

 

So is a foam fractionator, or skimmer if you will. 100% natural.

 

Ive never been successful growing chaeto. It always yellows, withers, and dies on me. Releasing all of its nutrients back into the tank. A skimmer is the only type of filter that removes poop from the water with no human intervention.

 

"Better" is very relative.

[Nstocks]

A skimmer is really a foam fractionator.

 

It does the same as wind and waves on the rocks.

 

I have driven along the highway going to Monterey, and on a windy day have seen huge billowing balls of foam, from the ocean, cross the highway.

 

That's natural.

 

So is a foam fractionator, or skimmer if you will. 100% natural.

 

Ive never been successful growing chaeto. It always yellows, withers, and dies on me. Releasing all of its nutrients back into the tank. A skimmer is the only type of filter that removes poop from the water with no human intervention.

 

"Better" is very relative.

 

Well, when you put it like that (how it is with the waves crashing is indeed natural. I never though of it like that)

 

Do you need to supplement often though, or has this just been blown out of proportion? Everyone's tank is different but as a general for mixed reef with a skimmer, supplements needed to keep it stable or are 10% weekly water changed enough?

 

Even without a refugium, a big sump is still better anyway right? Is there a way to find out evaporation to see if it is worth installing auto top up.

[farkwar]

A box of Red Sea Color is $20. 4 bottles, 100ml each. I put in one ml of each whenever I remember. That lasts me almost 6 months.

 

I dose TLF Coral Snow and TLF AcroPower, this is essentially amino acids.

 

I dose my ZeoVit stuff. And I do my water changes.

 

Whats wrong with supplementation, most people take vitamins, or should?

 

A big sump is better, always. You want to design your sump to be about half full of water running normally, that way it can take all the display tank water it can in case of power failure.

 

An ATO is always necessary, or youre going to do it manually.

[farkwar]

Here is a pic of the last sump I built.

 

http://s1078.photobucket.com/user/RichardSperry/media/20140728_11301_edit_1406573513293.jpg.html'>

 

Thats what I mean by the drain chamber being small. It acts as a snail catcher, bubble catch, and heater chamber.

[farkwar]

Heres the vid.

 

Watch "DIY Awesome Sump Design" on YouTube

DIY Awesome Sump Design:

 

First chamber is drain chamber. Sock. Which has overflow when sock is full. Then to the baffle chamber, for putting bags of media if needed.

 

Big chamber for skimmer. I currently have the SCA301 in that chamber. Then it flows under the baffle, up through the egg crate, where I havemy Cermedia ceramic balls, then over into the small return chamber.

[Nstocks]

Heres the vid. Watch "DIY Awesome Sump Design" on YouTube DIY Awesome Sump Design:

First chamber is drain chamber. Sock. Which has overflow when sock is full. Then to the baffle chamber, for putting bags of media if needed. Big chamber for skimmer. I currently have the SCA301 in that chamber. Then it flows under the baffle, up through the egg crate, where I havemy Cermedia ceramic balls, then over into the small return chamber.

 

I like that acrylic holder/baffle but I personally don't want to glue acrylic on glass which handles pressure. Perhaps OTT but I'd prefer to add braces and place the acrylic over that. Easy to remove too. I'm also probably going to add a brace on opposite side of the sump for a full acrylic lid... Aquarium is in my bedroom so I want to minimise noise (and splashes!)

 

I was actually inspired by that video for my sock compartment! My drain chamber *needs* to be so big due to the pipework, unless I use 45/90 degree angles to make the pipes come closer together when exiting the base of the tank. (I probably need to test the plumbing with actual pipework, not CAD). My return line is very tight - I designed it so the weir can be as small as possible but it should work. (the larger pipework represents the bulkheads)

 

How do you store your RO water for ATO? Could this be built into the sump rather than using a plastic jug. How often is top off needed on a open tank?

 

[Nstocks]

I've decided the refugium is out. Replacing it with a Tunze 9002. (or a similar skimmer for less than £100 and small and quiet)

 

I've roughly re-drawn the sump taking off 100mm length so I have a space for power cables etc.

 

Any ideas on how I can add a lid to the whole sump? I was going to add bracing along two sides and cut each a acrylic lid for each chamber but more braces would be needed taking up space.

 

How would you change this? Add a bubble trap? I'm not sure reducing the drain chamber would be useful - I'd rather keep the chambers roughly the same size so changing the drain will make the return smaller. (if that's a problem)

 

[farkwar]

Decrease the return chamber.

 

Make skimmer chamber larger for when you upgrade the skimmer. If you go with reactors they could go in this chamber too.

 

Put bubble trap after skimmer chamber.

 

ATO chamber is perfect!!!!

[farkwar]

You will put your ATO sensor in the return chamber.

 

Any water losses happen there first.

 

The smaller that chamber is the greater control on SG changes(evaporation losses are most noticeable).

[Nstocks]

Here's a design revision. Overall size of the sump has been altered so I can have a dedicated space for power and controls.

 

Is there a problem with the drain chamber being as big as it is? Will I still get enough flow over the sock and through the sump? I've made it the size it is so I don't have to use more pipework once it exits the display tank.

 

[farkwar]

BM Curve 5 or 7. Or equivalent. Seaside Aquatics does the BM skimmer with the Sicce pump, I would look into those. Vertex Omega 130 would be sweet.

 

3.5 is pretty small.

 

ATO pump can be cheap and small. Small Sicce pump. MJ400 pump, it has 1/2 nozzle. My MJ 400 runs dry all the time, its only $15 if it burns up (doubtful), easy replacement.

 

I have my heater in drain chamber, all my other chambers it lies diagonally (not recommended).

 

Baffle height is predicated on skimmer optimum/ideal water level, usually 8 inches/20cm.

[Nstocks]

Here's a 3D model of the Plan I posted earlier. I have 25mm above the filter sock, then a further 25mm on the central piece of glass, then 25mm above that on the RO section. The stepped levels are incase the filter sock clogs it will go straight into the skimmer / return rather than the fresh RO water.

 

There will be a 10mm acrylic lid placed on 6mm glass bracing. (I can't think of a better way to have a removable lid other than using glass bracing - same idea will hold the filter sock)

 

Bubble trap pieces are just over 8" with the middle piece 25mm higher. Voids for water that goes under is 25mm.

 

 

[Nstocks]

BM 5 or 7 will take up too much space . The 3.5 is rated for up to 300 litres with is twice my total volume. Good idea about putting heater in drain chamber! I've read it can be good vertically or horizontally but if it's in the drain chamber, I will free up some skimmer space.

 

Where would the skimmer outlets be placed? In the same chamber as the skimmer? Isn't there a chance it won't flow in the right direction?

[farkwar]

You may omit the first baffle in the skimmer chamber.

 

Just go under then over into the return chamber.

 

I still think your drain and return chambers are bigger than they need to be.

 

Use flex/vinyl tubing for the drain from the bulkheads. No need to use rigid PVC.

 

You can steal real estate for the skimmer chamber from them.

 

Skimmer output goes in skimmer chamber.

 

The sock chamber only needs to be 5-6 inches wide. The 4 inch sock is just a little over that for the ring. You have it at 6.4 inches, you can steal an inch there. I have never seen square filter socks, I would think you will have to break out a sewing machine and make your own.

 

The ATO has good dimensions, 5-6 gallons will get you about a week depending on ambient temp. I think youre using all glass, if not and using acrylic for that wall, silicone that joint twice. You dont want fresh water leaking into the salt water chambers.

 

Skimmers should be rated for amount of feeding, or bioload. Not gallons or liters. They are all over rated, I think Vertex under rates theirs a little. If you plan on filling that tank with livestock, you will want a bigger skimmer.

[Nstocks]

Would there be a flow issue with the drain chamber being that size? A smaller chamber = higher pressure but I'd prefer to keep it as it is. (OCD about having all the pipework the same, though I can't find 1" white PVC in the UK!!!)

 

Square filter socks do exist but I've found them hard to come buy, so I will just use a circlar one. The sock chamber is that size as I have 25mm braces on each side to hold the acrylic plate which holds the filter sock for easy removal too. All glass sump 6mm optifloat. (DP is optiwhite / starphire)

 

I was set on having the entire sump enclosed with a acrylic lid but bracing might get in the way... Any ideas how I could support the drain / sock chamber as it is only supported on one side.

 

[RollaJase]

This is how my cube sump turned out (don't have a pic of it fully built yet):


Here is my initial sketch:

 

Note that the skimmer and filter sock chambers on the sketch got switched around on the final sump. also the baffles between the return, fuge, LR and reactor chambers do not control the height of hte water, they are short baffles that are used simply to seperate teh contense of those designated chambers. As I am using a Tunze 9004 skimmer I needed extra water height and a place to put my heaters, hense why the sump was designed with way. I haven't isntalled this sump yet but it has passed my trial tests exceptionally. In this configuration I will increase my overall water volume by about 25%.

[farkwar]

Higher pressure, where?

 

The sump is not sealed, its open to air.

 

 

You can still do acrylic lid. Get acrylic hinges and make doors around/for your drain, sock, skimmer and return.

[RollaJase]

The drain pipes, if setup to be a siphon will have some pressure yes. I can't see it being enough to pop a lid off of the sump though. I am using these to hold a few lids for my sump:

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NjQzWDUwMA==/z/OZsAAMXQWzNSnq1C/$_12.JPG?set_id=880000500F

Will keep junk out of the sump, help with some evaporation control and as the lid will not be a perfect fit to the chamber due to the design of these clips air will be able to move freely.

[Nstocks]

The drain pipes have some pressure?

 

I could add bracing on the edges show below in blue. (25mm wide 6mm glass). 10mm clear acrylic lid (shown in light red). I've looked at using hinges but most require screws. Could they be glued straight only acrylic? (neatly).

 

Brown rectangles would be hinges. RO chamber would be separate piece of acrylic as it is supported on both sides.

 

Not sure how I would design the return chamber lid since when I open it the pipe will get in the way. (but how often would I do that anyway?!)

 

Are there any neat methods of doing water changes via the sump or do most do it in the DP to clean sand? I thought about using a 'Tee' on the return pump with a ball valve but that's probably not a good idea is it?

 

 

(EDIT: Deleted previous message due to image linking errors)

[Nstocks]

I've made a few more changes. RO chamber will hold around 13Litres, is this large enough? Return chamber is 105mm wide, Eheiim compact is 85mm wide, too close?

 

[farkwar]

I dont think you can improve that design further.

 

You have enough room for any skimmer you decide on, now; or upgrade to in future. Theres room for a couple small reactors, if you ever go that way.

 

Re too close. As long as the pump doesn't touch sides, you're good. The Eheim is known for being quiet.

 

Re ato chamber, thats about 3.5 gallons. Depending on room temp and humidity conditions, thats about a 5 day supply give or take a day. Putting lids on ato and su, p will net you a few extra days, evaporation should be decreased.