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New Tank, Deteriorating Clown


aimee

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Okay, this is long-winded and I apologize. And I also apologize if this is in the wrong forum! If it is I will gladly move the post.

 

I bought an Oscillaris at Petco about a week, week and a half ago. I know, stupid place, but I was excited. The next day I fleshed out my stock using a private LFS with a good reputation. My ten gallon now holds:

 

2 Oscillaris clowns (one from each store)

3 zebra hermits

1 turbo snail

1 emerald crab

 

The problem I'm having now is that the second clown, which is larger, is gasping on the bottom of the tank, belly to the sand. He'd been hiding behind the largest hunk of LR but does come out and zip towards me when he sees me poke my face around to investigate. He's spending time at the bottom of the front of the tank now.

 

He rallies himself to go hunt for food when I drop it in and was eating a bit. Not much, but i did see micro pellets go into his mouth and stay there. This last time I turned the HOB and wavemaker powerhead off for feeding time and tried mysis. He got up, swam around to investigate, but didn't eat anything. The other clown is fine. He buzzes the larger one from time to time to check in but doesn't harass him.

 

This fish is lethargic, no longer interacts with the original clown (they had been staying together at night), and is visibly losing weight. The space behind his gills is concave, you can clearly see the sharp edge of the gill cover. I haven't seen any white spots, holes, shredded fins, or stringy white poop, so I haven't been able to diagnose the problem. Is this a parasite? I don't believe it's the food type because he'd been eating both pellets and shrimp days before.

 

Could it be shock from a water change? I use treated tap water, but store it in a covered bucket. Never for more than a few days. I use it for water changes and top offs, just to have ready-to-go water.

 

I've found no information on the physical changes that a clown undergoes when transitioning into a female besides the obvious. Nothing about any kind of stress. It has crossed my mind that this might be a reason for rapid weight loss (lots of energy consumption) but I find it hard to believe.

 

My tank is newly cycled. The chemistry was stable before I stocked but I did have an outbreak of green and white hair algae beginning. My clean-up crew took out 80% of it within 36 hours, and then the nitrates started to spike. I had been doing feedings to every other day but with this clown deteriorating I picked it up to daily (albeit smaller feedings). I've tried mini water changes every few days to get more fresh water into the tank and nothing has happened except for the spread of brown algae. Now I'm wondering if I messed up the test that told me I had a green light to start stocking and that that mistake might kill this fish.

 

I don't have new water parameters for this post. I'm planning on another water change tomorrow and will run a full battery of tests then. Is this better done before or after the change? Or maybe both?

 

It seems strange that the fish from the well-liked LFS is the sick one and the Petco guy is doing fine, but there you have it.

 

THANK YOU for making it to the end of this post! I am a rambler and I am worried, lol. I'm not a big fan of "there will be some losses" even if this is my first saltwater.

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First: Try to switch to RO/DI water, because tap water can have all sorts of stuff in it. Even bacteria. And the treatments for the water can strip oxygen from it, as well as do other things. This may also be where the algae issues are coming from.

 

What are you feeding? As in, what specific pellet food? You want to make sure you're feeding a highly nutritious staple food and soaking pellets in Selcon and/or a vitamin supplement during each feeding if possible. How much are you feeding? If the fish is losing weight, make sure you're using a pipette and target feeding it.

 

Did you quarantine the fish before adding them to the tank? I would isolate the clown in a small hospital tank so that you can observe him more closely, and treat him (if necessary) without medicating your rock/sand and ruining the tank. Try just fattening him up first, but if the fish is lethargic (keep your temperature around 80F because the fish's metabolism kinda depends on that) and losing weight regardless of nutritious feeding, you may want to treat for parasites. Try to treat for bacterial infection last, because it'll get rid of the nitrifying bacteria population in the tank.

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I'm feeding Omega One marine micro pellets, which is what both fish were on at their stores. The fish weren't quarantined, it didn't even occur to me. :unsure: I'll grab DI water while I'm out aqua shopping.

 

I can definitely put the money into a 5G hospital tank setup; hopefully that will be big enough. Should I be setting up the hospital with a bit of the 10G sand and water to minimize shock?

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Omega One is pretty good as far as I recall (I use it for my freshwater fish), so that's good. But yeah, quarantine helps keep illness out of the tank. My clowns seem to have caught something from the live rock I put in a few months ago so I'm going to be quarantining them for eight weeks while I keep the tank fallow (fishless), so any fish-dependent illnesses can starve themselves out.

 

Try not to have any sand in the hospital tank. With a barebottom tank, it's easier to use a turkey baster or pipette to suck up leftover food or waste or whatever. Just put in something like PVC piping for the fish to hide in (non-porous, so it won't allow bacteria to colonize or parasites to hide, blah blah), a heater, and a filter in which you can keep established filter floss from the 10g. You're not quarantining corals, so you won't even need a light over the tank (do put a lid on, though) unless you want to look inside. The less light, while still maintaining ambient lighting, the less stress.

 

Water isn't going to carry the nitrifying bacteria (that settles on surfaces), but you do want to set up the tank initially with water from the main tank so your clown isn't shocked by that tank switch. Maybe do a particularly large water change and take the tank water for the quarantine. That large water change will help bring down the concentration of tap water, too! After the hospital tank is set up, don't use anything from the main tank on/in the QT and don't transfer anything back, either. You can keep the 5g, filter, and heater for future quarantine/hospital applications, depending on what medications you use. If you end up treating with copper, for example, you don't want to use the equipment with invertebrates.

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I'll get it set up tomorrow and see how things go from there. Hopefully I can get the brown algae and nitrates under control while the fish is recovering. Would be nice to solve three problems at once.

 

Thank you for your help!

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Sounds like it could be an internal parasite. Prazi pro is the drug of choice and actually safe for the display tank (make sure to remove carbon/skimmer/purigen, ect before using).

 

Something to take note of is even though the tank cycled, you should not add too many fish at once/too quickly. It could cause the tank to have a mini cycle from all the extra bioload.

 

It is also best to keep clowns in pairs in small tanks. As they mature, 2 may pair up and kill the other. If one perishes, it would be best not to replace it.

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Oh, I only have a pair of clowns. Even if I wanted another I wouldn't try to put it in a 10 gallon with the two I already have. :) It's enough of a challange to keep the water stable as is!

 

Some day I'm hoping to upgrade to a 29 gallon to give to fish I have now some extra space. I saw the local LFS's resident black osci pair. They're much bigger than I'd pictured (reading the adult size estimates on the web isn't the same as seeing). Also, the female there bit the employee while he was cleaning hard enough to draw a tiny bit of blood. Seems like a fish that can do that needs more space, lol. But I've heard clowns grow slowly.

 

I'm not at all versed in saltwater meds, but I know not to put any of my freshwater stuff into their water. I put Prazi pro on the shopping list. Hopefully it's at one of the pet stores around here. I'll still set up a hospital tank (the idea of calm waters and ambient light sounds good, this fish looks anorexic) but if it's safe for the display then I see no harm in dosing the main tank too just in case this is a case of parasites and they've spread.

 

Too late for this tank if I did set off another cycle, but I'll definitely keep that information in mind for when I upgrade to my 29 (or whatever). It's much easier to add stock slowly than it is to deal with the fallout my nano is going through! I had no idea that I could trigger more cycles. Maybe less bioload with removing the sick fish will help stabilize the environment?

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The issue with dosing the main tank is that you don't know how more beneficial critters will react, you know? And the medicine will seep into the live rock and then dissipate over a long time, which could harm future inhabitants (corals, snails, etc).

 

The lower bioload would help, yes. But you may want to up the filtration and use RO/DI water, because that could also be a solution to your problem.

 

While you're quarantining one of the fish, you could even isolate and medicate both, then leave the tank in a fallow period to make sure they don't come back to a hostile environment. But that's if you want to, of course. You wouldn't be adding more livestock anyway, so it wouldn't make a difference as far as the effectiveness of future fish's quarantines.

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Okay, I'll stick with meds in the hospital tank only. The fish will be staying there until he's healthy (hopefully this will be a good recovery) and the main tank is stable (which might take a while).

 

I'll do a change with RO/DI before setting up the hospital.

 

Thank you!

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Oh, I only have a pair of clowns. Even if I wanted another I wouldn't try to put it in a 10 gallon with the two I already have. :) It's enough of a challange to keep the water stable as is!

 

Some day I'm hoping to upgrade to a 29 gallon to give to fish I have now some extra space. I saw the local LFS's resident black osci pair. They're much bigger than I'd pictured (reading the adult size estimates on the web isn't the same as seeing). Also, the female there bit the employee while he was cleaning hard enough to draw a tiny bit of blood. Seems like a fish that can do that needs more space, lol. But I've heard clowns grow slowly.

 

I'm not at all versed in saltwater meds, but I know not to put any of my freshwater stuff into their water. I put Prazi pro on the shopping list. Hopefully it's at one of the pet stores around here. I'll still set up a hospital tank (the idea of calm waters and ambient light sounds good, this fish looks anorexic) but if it's safe for the display then I see no harm in dosing the main tank too just in case this is a case of parasites and they've spread.

 

Too late for this tank if I did set off another cycle, but I'll definitely keep that information in mind for when I upgrade to my 29 (or whatever). It's much easier to add stock slowly than it is to deal with the fallout my nano is going through! I had no idea that I could trigger more cycles. Maybe less bioload with removing the sick fish will help stabilize the environment?

 

Oh my bad, I read 3 on your post instead of 2. This is what happens when I try to read a paragraph before bed :P

 

 

The issue with dosing the main tank is that you don't know how more beneficial critters will react, you know? And the medicine will seep into the live rock and then dissipate over a long time, which could harm future inhabitants (corals, snails, etc).

 

The lower bioload would help, yes. But you may want to up the filtration and use RO/DI water, because that could also be a solution to your problem.

 

While you're quarantining one of the fish, you could even isolate and medicate both, then leave the tank in a fallow period to make sure they don't come back to a hostile environment. But that's if you want to, of course. You wouldn't be adding more livestock anyway, so it wouldn't make a difference as far as the effectiveness of future fish's quarantines.

 

Prazi pro is the one med I use in my reef. It is in my tanks right now actually with clams.. SPS... LPS.. softies.. worms.. pods.. anenome's.. gorgs... ect. It doesn't effect the biological filter. It would also take a huge dose to effect a fish negatively, and even then, I have only seen the fish vomit when given like 100x increased dose.

 

This med is very specific in what it targets and is the only one I would ever put into a display tank. It doesn't even harm my display feather dusters.

 

I use it once a year as a preventative de-wormer in case something found its way into the tank.

 

 

Okay, I'll stick with meds in the hospital tank only. The fish will be staying there until he's healthy (hopefully this will be a good recovery) and the main tank is stable (which might take a while).

 

I'll do a change with RO/DI before setting up the hospital.

 

Thank you!

 

I would use a cup or bucket to scoop him out if possible to keep him in the water instead of netting. it is a lot less traumatic.

 

Be sure to watch for any color changes on the clown. Brooklynella is very deadly to clowns.

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Prazi pro is the one med I use in my reef. It is in my tanks right now actually with clams.. SPS... LPS.. softies.. worms.. pods.. anenome's.. gorgs... ect. It doesn't effect the biological filter or seep into the rock.. it would also take a huge dose to effect a fish negatively, and even then, I have only seen the fish vomit when given like 100x increased dose.

 

This med is very specific in what it targets and is the only one I would ever put into a display tank. It doesn't even harm my display feather dusters.

 

I use it once a year as a preventative de-wormer in case something found its way into the tank.

 

 

 

Keep in mind when QT, it can be added stress to be moved. I would use a cup or bucket to scoop him out if possible to keep him in the water instead of netting. it is a lot less traumatic.

 

Ah. I have Prazi Pro, I've just never used it in my main tank. It's good to know that it won't be harmful! And if that's the only medicine that aimee will be using, that'd be fine. The quarantine will be good for other medications, though.

 

+1 to the avoiding netting whenever possible. It can cause abrasions, and it's like getting chased by a big, square monster.

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Thank you both! I scooped him out with a little container. I did use the net to herd though. I'm happy he didn't duck behind the LR.

 

He's at the bottom of the hospital tank. The temp is mid 70 and climbing with a small heater. I'm hoping it will get to 78 at least because I have no control over it.

 

Salinity matches the display tank. L'hospital is in my bedroom where the only ambient light is the LED over the goldfish so hopefully it will be calm enough.

 

Holding my breath that the clown doesn't die in the next 24 hours. I didn't see the med in stores so I guess it's time to order online. :/

 

Never occurred to me to deform fish but it's a great idea!

 

The fish is still in great color. No difference from his color four days ago before all of this. Hoping that's a positive sign.

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Wait. You have no control over the temperature? That's something you're supposed to be able to fine-tune, so that you can keep the tank at a steady 81-82F.

 

Hopefully he makes it! Good luck!

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No. It's the cheap 5G Aqueon heater and I didn't notice my lack of control until I got home and opened it up. I'm hoping it does the trick; if not I'm sure I can take it back for a refund and upgrade.

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Oh no! Did you set up the hospital tank with water from your aquarium? It may be temperature shock; you're meant to match that up to within one degree. :(

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I set it up with original water. It could be temp shock, this little heater isn't doing much and will need to go back. Would it be worse at this point to gently move him back home?

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Original water as in from the aquarium, or newly mixed? Because the parameters would've been different if you'd mixed up new water, too.

 

Hmmm. If you can't keep him at a stable temperature, I'd definitely say move him back home. If you've got some sort of breeder box, to float at the top of the main aquarium, that might be even better. Closer access to the surface for oxygenated water, and a higher point in the tank to rest on, etc. Hopefully he pulls through.

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It's a mix of water from the aquarium and distilled with treatment. I couldn't take 50% of the water from the original.

 

I don't have a breeder box but I have Ziploc containers and tape. I could rig something.

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Oh no! :( Poor little guy. Keep the hospital tank equipment and get a good, reliable heater, for future use, okay? You don't want to be caught off guard again, that would be unfortunate.

 

When you say distilled water with 'treatment', what do you mean? Did you take aquarium water and distilled water? Or did you take aquarium water and fresh saltwater? Why wasn't it possible to remove half the water from the ten gallon?

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There are still fish and inverts in the ten gallon. Would a 50% change upset them? Too late now but it's good knowledge for the future.

 

I can keep the tank and double it as a quarantine for the next clown. How long would you say a good quarantine lasts?

 

The 5G fill was 50% water from the 10G and 50% distilled water with Instant Ocean marine stabilizer. I wasn't sure it was even necessary but didn't thunk it would hurt. No?

 

I also added Instant Ocean Salt until the salinity matched.

 

Other than getting a real heater is there anything I should have done differently or change before switching this to a quarantine? Should I wait on adding new stock for a while?

 

Ah, there is -A- fish in the 10 gallon with inverts. Didn't mean for fish to sound plural.

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Assuming the water you add is at the same temperature and has similar parameters (salinity, alk, calcium, etc), a 50% water change should be fine for a FOWLR and some reef tanks. A lot of people swear by large water changes for trace element replenishment.

 

A good quarantine lasts anywhere from six to eight weeks. After any round of medication, two weeks of observation time. If before those two weeks are up you end up needing to medicate again, you finish the round of meds and wait another two weeks.

 

IO Stabilizer was probably completely unnecessary, if not detrimental. Some water treatments do affect water chemistry, like Prime's tendency to strip dissolved oxygen from the water a bit.

 

Was the salt fully mixed in the five gallon tank before you added the fish? That can take hours of mixing time. Was there a filter going in the quarantine tank, too? What are you measuring salinity with?

 

Definitely wait on getting new stock for a while. Try to get insight into people's different quarantine/hospital tank methods, and make sure you've got everything you'll need on hand. Some like to keep quarantine tanks running all the time, some just keep the equipment around and an extra piece of filter floss in the main tank's filtration until it's needed in the quarantine tank's filter.

 

Wait until your main tank is stable before you try to make any new additions. On that note, can I ask why you're using the marine stabilizer?

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I'll wait then.

 

I had thought that the salt was fully mixed. Of course, what came from the 10 gallon was, but I waited for the salt on the bottom of the tank to dissolve. Definitely wasn't hours. :/

 

I will remember about the large water change.

 

The only filter in the tank was the mini Aqueon that is a part of the 5 gallon kit. But there is a filter. I might be able to fit the mini filter into the 10 gallon HOB for future use.

 

The marine stabilizer is simply something I started using because it sounded important, which sounds like a completely moronic reason but it's honest. Probably better to stop using it then?

 

I will do more research and haunt more forum threads. I don't want to cause another fish death if I can help it. :(

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test the ammonia in your qt. I bet it cycled. you need to set up a qt in advance to cycle or bring something from the dt that has enough biological filtration to support the fish. bringing water over to the qt isn't enough as it doesn't carry enough of the good bacteria you want. do a little research on how others run a qt. 4-6 weeks is what I think most people qt for. I used to qt but im kind of lazy on tank maintenance.

 

you can change as much water in your dt as you want as long a perams and temp match whats in the tank now.

 

I would wait a week or so before adding any more live stock to the dt. just to make sure the other fish is in good health.

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