Controversial Fish Care. Ethics of fish keeping and tank sizes.

[Chris!]

I don't think we are going to be shut down. I think there are far too many people who are either indifferent or know that we aren't stripping the reefs of everything. The ocean is in a state of rapid decline. I guess we just disagree as to what we think is more likely.

 

But let's say that we are more likely to be shut down than the ocean's life going away. That's just another reason to move into aquaculture. Then we keep our hobby alive, while leaving the reefs be. Scientists will still collect new life/specimens, and they will be moved into captivity. Aquaculturing industry will take off, leading to new advances, and relationships with public/international aquariums to breed rare fish for our hobby. I don't see any negative side to aquaculturing, other than it being difficult.

 

We already aquaculture fish and corals, quite a bit of it actually.

 

You have clearly missed another of my points with the regulations.... if they are illegal to take from the ocean they are typically illegal to even own meaning the hobby would be dead. Aquaculture would consist entirely of only public aquariums (at best) and scientific research facilities. You, me and pretty much everyone on this site and every other site would not be allowed to legally own any of the animals we do now if the anti-aquatics groups get their way (and the Hawaii laws show they take their bs and out dated numbers into account when making said laws).

 

 

Without mariculturing corals we would not get nearly the new coral in that we do so we would all have the same old shit we've been looking at for years.... I like the new stuff alot better then what was available 10 yrs ago and look forwards to seeing whats out there 10 yrs from now. Also mariculturing isn't bad at all, its the equivalent of aquaculturing just takes place inside the ocean still. They take pieces of large colonies in the ocean, frag them, grow them out sell some and continue the process with the ones they keep there while bringing in new stuff and doing the same thing with that. Take a few pieces grow it out sell some grow some sell some grow some without raping the sea

[tibbsy07]

If all the fish and the coral in all the oceans died tomorrow the hobby could continue, and in theory help rebuild.... if people against the hobby get their way, the hobby will be banned and if the oceans died the next day it'd all be lost because it would be illegal to own the animals we keep, breed and aquaculture successfully!

Not at its current state, it couldn't. Maybe some of the coral and some of the fish like damsels and some others, but not the majority of the ocean.

 

 

We already aquaculture fish and corals, quite a bit of it actually.

 

You have clearly missed another of my points with the regulations.... if they are illegal to take from the ocean they are typically illegal to even own meaning the hobby would be dead. Aquaculture would consist entirely of only public aquariums (at best) and scientific research facilities. You, me and pretty much everyone on this site and every other site would not be allowed to legally own any of the animals we do now if the anti-aquatics groups get their way (and the Hawaii laws show they take their bs and out dated numbers into account when making said laws).

 

 

I'm not talking about stopping us from taking from the ocean, legally or otherwise. You are saying you think the media/PETA/etc. will shut us down before the oceans die. I disagree entirely.

[cthumphr]

Your missing my point, dude. Go back and read my post I didn't say overharvesting or overfishing was going to be the cause of why we would run out of fish.... but we are still far more likely to get shut down then we are to run out of fish (for any reason, including death.... unless some dipshit nukes the world and we all die). My reference to the Hawaii situation was merely to show that even in areas that have plenty of fish they are passing regulations to tighten what we can and cannot take because happy feet want more shit to step on and smash and are lobbying stronger, and getting the word out that we are bad more then the hobby is saying hey look we just bred another type of fish!!!

 

 

If all the fish and the coral in all the oceans died tomorrow the hobby could continue, and in theory help rebuild.... if people against the hobby get their way, the hobby will be banned and if the oceans died the next day it'd all be lost because it would be illegal to own the animals we keep, breed and aquaculture successfully!

 

 

Nah, you're missing my point, dude. You aren't reading my posts, apparently. I'm not talking about overfishing/overharvesting. I'm talking about death. The oceans are DYING. As in, dead, gone, kaput, etc. If we don't start making the switch more towards aquaculture and away from mariculture, it won't matter what PETA or anyone else thinks. We won't have anything to harvest, and we won't have the aquaculturing infrastructure to continue our hobby beyond clownfish and some basic corals. Certain places have more fish, sure. Most places do not. The overall reef system of the world is declining. The Great Barrier Reef Marine Park Authority reports on the health of the reef every few years. This year's update says that despite conservation efforts, the reef is declining and the outlook is grim. It's all over (Edit: It's all over the ocean, not just GBR)

 

 

You both are correct. The oceans are dying as we speak. Talk to locals that have lived in Hawaii all their lives, or in the Carribean. Those that have snorkeled regularly will usually tell you the story of the abundance that was... and is now gone. I remember a scuba trip to Cozumel and my scuba guide told us that there used to be WAY more sharks there and other large fish. Now just your occasional nurse shark. That was 10 years ago too, probably worse now.

 

There is a ARK aspect to our hobby but I don't think that is ever going to be a saving grace for the oceans. I think our hobby's biggest contribution could be through educating the masses about marine life and exhibiting SELF-CONTROL..... If we can have a hobby that does what it can to preserve marine life while educating other about the importance of it then we are in a WIN-WIN situation.

 

But if we just keep buying the hottest SCOLY we can find cause its beautiful, then we really aren't helping things, we're just fueling an industry of exploitation.

 

Don't get me wrong. All coral had to come from the ocean at some point. But if we took that coral and grew it and fragged it for others to enjoy, then that would mean for ever frag we keep more of them in the ocean where we all know they belong.

 

Only ways things are going to change is when the majority of hobbyist buy from sustainable / aquacultured vendors. I'm encouraged there are some out there.

 

Designed?

 

Like some engineer god designed them for a purpose?

 

If so, its quite evidently obvious that they were designed to be killed, die, and be food.

 

 

You can fit in there, the tiniest minority age to reproductive age, reproduce a hundred thousand copies of theselves, with only one or three reaching reproductive age. With the balance/difference being killed, dying, and being eaten by....fish.

 

 

If that is 'design', your silly retarded diety needs to have its engineering license revoked.

 

Whales are not fish, either.

 

I don't believe in God. I just believe animals evolved over millions of years live in their habitats. They fill a niche. It is one that in most cases I don't think we can recreate.

 

I know whales are not fish. But I think whales and fish are intelligent creatures and deserve more respect from humans.

[farkwar]

There is no design in Evolution.

 

No intention.

 

If so, how do you know that humans did not evolve specifically to keep fish in glass boxes?

 

If so, we humans were obviously intended and designed to do that.

 

Who are you to go against human Evolution and Design?

 

Respect?, Ive pointed out several times that fish kill more fish than humans do. Why arent they required to show respect to the animals they kill?

[tibbsy07]

There is no design in Evolution.

 

No intention.

 

If so, how do you know that humans did not evolve specifically to keep fish in glass boxes?

 

If so, we humans were obviously intended and designed to do that.

 

Who are you to go against human Evolution?

 

Respect?, Ive pointed out several times that fish kill more fish than humans do. Why arent they required to show respect to the animals they kill?

There is no design in evolution, not at all. That doesn't mean that niches don't exist, however.

 

As far as your last point, fish don't kill other fish just for the heck of it. They don't have the resources to expend the energy just to do whatever they want.

[Chris!]

Not at its current state, it couldn't. Maybe some of the coral and some of the fish like damsels and some others, but not the majority of the ocean.

 

No shit obviously we can't put back stuff we can't keep or breed (and if we aren't allowed to bring them in we never will be able to...) but we could do alot more then any other group/ industry with exception to public aquaria (and even then we could give that a good run for its money on most things I am sure). And I said help rebuild, not fully restock LMAO. The industry has produced captive bred tangs, angels,dottybacks, mandarins, sharks, and a whole slew of other animals, and all the different corals we can propagate as well.... we could do alot more for rebuilding then just damsels and a few other little things... if the hobby gets shut down alot of that industry would too

 

 

I'm not talking about stopping us from taking from the ocean, legally or otherwise. You are saying you think the media/PETA/etc. will shut us down before the oceans die. I disagree entirely.

 

There are already things in place that if fully enacted will make it illegal to own 20 different species of coral, its a small dent in what is out there yes but they want to add shit like clownfish based on numbers from 2005... If you own a percula clown it could be illegal to own, breed, sell, trade or even take from one tank to another soon.

 

 

Yes there would still be some research and advances made, but every tank lost is a tank that isn't around to possibly inspire someone to do something great for the reefs as well. You think people just wake up and decide one day to become a marine biologist or try to breed a type of fish that has never been done before for shits n giggles... I'd bet most were inspired somewhere. Maybe it was a tv show, maybe it was a snorkel/ scuba trip, but maybe, just maybe they found their inspiration in a family member, friend or even public aquarium

[farkwar]

Whales playing with their food.

 

[tibbsy07]

No shit obviously we can't put back stuff we can't keep but we could do alot more then any other group/ industry with exception to public aquaria (and even then we could give that a good run for its money on most things I am sure). And I said help rebuild, not fully restock LMAO. The industry has produced captive bred tangs, angels,dottybacks, mandarins, sharks, and a whole slew of other animals, and all the different corals we can propagate as well.... we could do alot more for rebuilding then just damsels and a few other little things... if the hobby gets shut down alot of that industry would too

 

 

 

There are already things in place that if fully enacted will make it illegal to own 20 different species of coral, its a small dent in what is out there yes but they want to add shit like clownfish based on numbers from 2005... If you own a percula clown it could be illegal to own, breed, sell, trade or even take from one tank to another soon.

Rebuild means to restock in terms of nature. The ocean isn't just a bunch of organisms all living independently. It's a huge ecosystem with checks and balances. What we have, in terms of aquaculture, is a drop in the bucket. The oceans themselves are dying for reasons that would likely wipe out anything we put back in. Not only that but our aquaculture techniques are slow, resource-heavy, and expensive. So, yeah, keep thinking we even have a shot in our current hobby state.

 

As to your other point, I understand your concern. But the law exists as "this is illegal to own" because the majority of those things are only obtainable through illegal means. Kind if like it would be illegal to own a handgun that wasn't registered, even if you were licensed to carry handguns. Public aquariums aren't going away, despite what PETA and others want - zoos are still around and PETA has been going after them for far too long. That, and while there are some things that are illegal for dumb reasons, the majority of worldwide regulations exist because the organisms are endangered, threatened, dangerous, or pose a threat to endemic livestock.

 

In these instances, I look to scientists. Are marine scientists arguing with the regulations or is it business owners/hobbyists? If the scientists say that there are no reasons for the regulations, then I will support that notion.

 

Whales playing with their food.

Whales are not fish, as you said. To that same end, I restate, that it's not like those whales leave their food to waste. They eat the food. They aren't just tearing through the ocean killing and killing and not eating anything.

[Chris!]

Whales playing with their food.

 

But whales aren't fish... lol

[cthumphr]

There is no design in Evolution.

 

No intention.

 

If so, how do you know that humans did not evolve specifically to keep fish in glass boxes?

 

If so, we humans were obviously intended and designed to do that.

 

Who are you to go against human Evolution and Design?

 

Respect?, Ive pointed out several times that fish kill more fish than humans do. Why arent they required to show respect to the animals they kill?

 

Ok designed might be a bad word to use, but my point was natural selection caused them to end up as they are today. So in essence I am saying they were shaped by the environments they lived in to have certain features and adaptations. When we pluck them out of their environments we are disrupting their life.

 

Humans are an arrogant species. I think most of time we justify what we want and use animals for our own purposes "because we can." What I am saying is, I am hoping we can get past that and use our intelligence to fit in the natural world and not destroy it for our own pleasure.

 

I can understand the human that needs to catch a fish to eat. I can't agree with the human that needs to catch a fish for his or her own entertainment.

[farkwar]

There is no design in evolution, not at all. That doesn't mean that niches don't exist, however.

 

As far as your last point, fish don't kill other fish just for the heck of it. They don't have the resources to expend the energy just to do whatever they want.

 

You've never seen your cat playing with a mouse or grounded bird for fun?

 

I have lots if times.

 

The other poster can equate a yellow rang to a whale, that permits cats and whales playing with their food equations. Im sure fish do as well, ive just never seen it.

[cthumphr]

Whales playing with their food.

 

Yes and I've seen the documentary of the orcas killing the baby gray whale just for its tongue. Orcas are amazing animals, very complex social creatures. The wild can be a cruel place, sure, but what does that have to do with humans exploiting marine life?

[farkwar]

 

Ok designed might be a bad word to use, but my point was natural selection caused them to end up as they are today. So in essence I am saying they were shaped by the environments they lived in to have certain features and adaptations. When we pluck them out of their environments we are disrupting their life.

 

Humans are an arrogant species. I think most of time we justify what we want and use animals for our own purposes "because we can." What I am saying is, I am hoping we can get past that and use our intelligence to fit in the natural world and not destroy it for our own pleasure.

 

I can understand the human that needs to catch a fish to eat. I can't agree with the human that needs to catch a fish for his or her own entertainment.

Anthropomorphism is not the opposite of destroying the natural world for our own pleasure.

 

You need to own a cat, it will teach you that animals play with their prey, for their own amusement.

 

The whale video obviously shows that whales play with their prey, for enjoyment or practice.

 

If we are arrogant, its because we evolved that way, no? Thus its natural. We are intended by nature and evolution to be the way we are, arrogant.

 

Again, who are you to tell humans to go against how they evolved? Pretty arrogant, if you ask me.

[tibbsy07]

You've never seen your cat playing with a mouse or grounded bird for fun? I have lots if times. The other poster can equate a yellow rang to a whale, that permits cats and whales playing with their food equations. Im sure fish do as well, ive just never seen it.

I didn't say anything about cats, or other mammals. Cats, specifically, have been studied as to why they hunt for fun. Dolphins, cats, humans, and now some evidence of chimpanzees, are the only known animals to hunt for something other than food. Fish aren't in that group. The animals in that group are considered "higher" organisms, in that their cognitive abilities are higher than most others. Fish don't do that because they seriously don't have the energy. They don't have any reason to. Their brain function doesn't allow them to "play" like other animals. Fish live to breed. That's about it.

[Chris!]

Rebuild means to restock in terms of nature. The ocean isn't just a bunch of organisms all living independently. It's a huge ecosystem with checks and balances. What we have, in terms of aquaculture, is a drop in the bucket. The oceans themselves are dying for reasons that would likely wipe out anything we put back in. Not only that but our aquaculture techniques are slow, resource-heavy, and expensive. So, yeah, keep thinking we even have a shot in our current hobby state.

 

Slow changes (evolution) are adaptable, rapid change not so much. What the oceans are doing is more evolution then rapid change (as noted for many years now).... Yes not everything will adapt as well as others but I highly doubt mass vanishing acts of all sea life like you seem to think. Yes our aquaculture purely at the hobby level isn't 100% but if people just sit around and cry the oceans are dying the oceans are dying don't take stuff thats gonna apparently die soon anyways then there won't be many advances in the area of aquaculture or knowledge of maybe how we can do something to help change the way things are going either

 

 

As to your other point, I understand your concern. But the law exists as "this is illegal to own" because the majority of those things are only obtainable through illegal means.

 

Yeah once the laws go into effect they will be illegal to obtain, currently none of the items are illegal to own and are properly collected and imported through CITES and are fairly readily available in the hobby

 

Kind if like it would be illegal to own a handgun that wasn't registered, even if you were licensed to carry handguns. Public aquariums aren't going away, despite what PETA and others want - zoos are still around and PETA has been going after them for far too long. That, and while there are some things that are illegal for dumb reasons, the majority of worldwide regulations exist because the organisms are endangered, threatened, dangerous, or pose a threat to endemic livestock.

 

Peta isnt shit compared to some of these new groups.

 

In these instances, I look to scientists. Are marine scientists arguing with the regulations or is it business owners/hobbyists? If the scientists say that there are no reasons for the regulations, then I will support that notion.

 

Scientist were on our side in hawaii and they still tightened the strings

[farkwar]

I didnt equate fish with mammals. The other poster took that license.

 

So then, did I.

 

There are vast differences between fish and mammals. I dont believe they are equal.

 

An anthropomorphist cant tell the difference. He would say, like cultural relativism for animals, that a clownfish(any Disney animal)deserves the same treatment as a deer(fit any Disney talking animal here), as a human.

 

Franz Boas meets Walt Disney, and they have begat this freakish love child,

[Chris!]

are the only known animals to hunt for something other than food.

 

So because its not known its not possible?

 

They don't have any reason to. Their brain function doesn't allow them to "play" like other animals. Fish live to breed. That's about it.

 

I think fish are smarter then we give them credit for tho, I can walk to my tank and they all huddle around the surface waiting for food. My wife or oldest son walk to the tank, nothing.... actually if the son goes to the tank they swim lower and towards the back because they know his crazy butt will stick his hands in the tank or knock the mesh top in if he gets the chance..... They know whats up

[Tamberav]

Talking about the reefs dying. A lot of things are dying.. humans are encroaching on habitats and poaching and animals are going extinct. Hopefully the earth will survive our wrath if we go the way of the dinosaurs and life can start over as seems to be the natural cycle of things.

 

 

 

cthumphr, you would probably really enjoy a peacock mantis shrimp. They seem to do very well in captivity and not prone to disease or dieing from stress like fish.

[tibbsy07]

Slow changes (evolution) are adaptable, rapid change not so much. What the oceans are doing is more evolution then rapid change (as noted for many years now).... Yes not everything will adapt as well as others but I highly doubt mass vanishing acts of all sea life like you seem to think. Yes our aquaculture purely at the hobby level isn't 100% but if people just sit around and cry the oceans are dying the oceans are dying don't take stuff thats gonna apparently die soon anyways then there won't be many advances in the area of aquaculture or knowledge of maybe how we can do something to help change the way things are going either

There are a few people who think that this is evolution. The majority of scientists (including myself) look at the data and realize that what is happening in the ocean right now is not simple evolution. Rather, it is rapid destruction. As for the vanishing act, man, you really need to read up on the actual science of what's going on with the marine ecosystems. Species are dropping like flies. Whole reefs are dying - there are reefs in the keys that are being killed by bacteria previously thought to only infect people... They are the cause of diarrheal diseases in humans, and now they are actually infecting the reefs and killing coral... We can go on all day about this, but it's another point entirely.

 

I agree that we shouldn't sit around. I'm all for advancing aquaculture. That's what I've been saying the whole time... To make that a priority for us...

 

Yeah once the laws go into effect they will be illegal to obtain, currently none of the items are illegal to own and are properly collected and imported through CITES and are fairly readily available in the hobby

 

 

Peta isnt shit compared to some of these new groups.

 

 

Scientist were on our side in hawaii and they still tightened the strings

Politics is a problem everywhere, and the squeaky wheel gets the noise. I don't think what they did in Hawaii was right - I didn't say it was. I just don't think the aquarium hobby is going anywhere. You obviously disagree. I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree on this point.

 

 

So because its not known its not possible?

 

 

I think fish are smarter then we give them credit for tho, I can walk to my tank and they all huddle around the surface waiting for food. My wife or oldest son walk to the tank, nothing.... actually if the son goes to the tank they swim lower and towards the back because they know his crazy butt will stick his hands in the tank or knock the mesh top in if he gets the chance..... They know whats up

It's possible, anything is possible. It's possible that a huge asteroid crashes into the moon causing the moon to explode and then rain down on earth, killing us all. It doesn't mean it's likely... That's because it makes no evolutionary or biological sense. The capacity for that kind of thinking doesn't exist in the fish world... Maybe with octopi, but not anything else. And all of the creatures that have these kinds of traits are predatory. Prey animals don't expend that kind of energy because it puts them at risk. Their life is eat, reproduce, survive. Not play with other food. Fish brains have been studied, as have their behaviors, patterns, etc. They are not bright. They barely have a nervous system (recent evidence suggests that they MAY feel pain).

[Chris!]

I just don't think the aquarium hobby is going anywhere. You obviously disagree.

 

I hope it doesn't... but there are clearly people trying to make it a reality and the money and faked, exaggerated and outdated #s to do so atleast slowly. And if they get their way and the ESA's go into full extent it will be illegal to be part of this hobby as it will be illegal to own the animals we love n care for.

[1.0reef]

Don't keep tangs in nano aquariums. It's weak.

As long as the fish are healthy, not stressed, and are in a reasonable environment, it's fine IMO. In trade for size we do give them no predation, a ton of food, good water conditions, etc. It's like a island of paradise, but it's a small one.

[Cameron6796]

But whales aren't fish... lol

Orcas also aren't whales they are dolphins, they are highly intelligent and are exploited for this by companies like SeaWorld.

 

Talking about the reefs dying. A lot of things are dying.. humans are encroaching on habitats and poaching and animals are going extinct. Hopefully the earth will survive our wrath if we go the way of the dinosaurs and life can start over as seems to be the natural cycle of things. cthumphr, you would probably really enjoy a peacock mantis shrimp. They seem to do very well in captivity and not prone to disease or dieing from stress like fish.

I say rid the world of all life, save all of al ogres speeches and every other nature conscious persons discussions and then rif the world of everything living and start over... Use the saved info as standard curriculum ... Problem solved...lol if only

[4x5]

Orcas also aren't whales they are dolphins, they are highly intelligent and are exploited for this by companies like SeaWorld.

They're all Cetaceans, let's not get too nit picky now.

I say rid the world of all life, save all of al ogres speeches and every other nature conscious persons discussions and then rif the world of everything living and start over... Use the saved info as standard curriculum ... Problem solved...lol if only

If we "destroy" the earth it will regenerate just as it has before. Everyone worries about saving the earth but in reality we need to save it for ourselves to be able to sustain our lives, the world can take care of itself with or without us. Evolution is pretty cool. I personally believe in taking care of nature and making as much of a difference as I can but a person needs to realise that there are people who like to hunt, who like to fish, who like many things that might seem wrong according to our personal values (but who says we are right).

 

Let your conscience guide you.

[HVani]

If we "destroy" the earth it will regenerate just as it has before. Everyone worries about saving the earth but in reality we need to save it for ourselves to be able to sustain our lives, the world can take care of itself with or without us. Evolution is pretty cool. I personally believe in taking care of nature and making as much of a difference as I can but a person needs to realise that there are people who like to hunt, who like to fish, who like many things that might seem wrong according to our personal values (but who says we are right).

 

Let your conscience guide you.

100% agree

 

We are only a small part of the Earth's history. Believe me, it's been through worse. It will go on. Yes we are making significant changes some good, some bad. But in the end we will cease to exist and the planet will keep living on. We are the biggest threat to our own existence IMO.

 

Look at how many species that have thrived due to our existence. Look out in your backyard, see any squirrels? Evolution is an amazing thing. Animals adapt, if they don't they die. The oceans are changing. I'm not sure if we can do anything about it at this point. We are trying but some things are just too far gone. But there will be species that thrive in this current change, others will die out. It sucks but it's how it has always been. The Earth has gone through climate change before and a lot of species went extinct. In the end the aquarium trade is the least of the oceans problems.