Controversial Fish Care. Ethics of fish keeping and tank sizes.

[Formula462]

only time I shoot vertical video on my phone is when I am filming some sweet POV action.

When you called him a dickhead, did he hear you?

 

If he can read, he probably said it out loud in his head so yeah, he heard me.

[GHill762]

What a philistine.

 

 

I think the thing is actually more about ethics than life/death. You could live in a closet, if need be, but it wouldn't be pleasant. Tangs CAN live in these tanks, clearly. As long as they have their required food and water quality, they'll live. That doesn't mean they don't prefer to have more room to swim. Given the fact that recent studies (I'll edit with the link at some point) have suggested that fish can and do actually feel pain, I think we need to reconsider what we keep in what kind of tanks.

well as long as we're taking their preferences into consideration, wouldn't they prefer to be left in the ocean?

[hey]

The real issue is that we are anthropomorphizing fish in general, until studies come out that show fish have real emotion beyond the realm of (stressed and unstressed, which I believe are poorly used terms as they also relate to a human emotion) we can't say where a fish is happiest.

 

On that note, if I were a fish you know what would make me happy, being comfortable knowing nothing around is going to eat me.

[glennr1978]

You can slice it however you want it's still effed up to keep such an athletic fish in a small tank. I guess when you work around 1200 and 3000 gallon 13 ft long aquariums all the time, you get to see their "real" behavior. It's not a "hump" like you said. It's ethics that for some reason, we apply to every other pet/animal but not fish.

 

Can you answer my question pertaining to the obviously negligible difference between a 1.5' tank and a 6' tank then (negligible given the discussion, obviously I can do the math )? I'm not trying to get into a "whose is bigger" debate, but I will say that my tanks are plenty big enough for any tang, according the the gosphel aka liveaquaria.

 

My family has some horses. Horses are considerably large mammals that are extremely athletic and run across thousands of acres in the wild. My backyard at home is about 100 ft long and 80 ft wide. If I were to put a horse back there he would eat, try to gallop as best he could, sleep, and walk around. He would do ALL the things a horse should do. I guarantee you he would not die. Would that be ok?

 

I don't expect you to know a lot about horses, (maybe you do though) but I can tell you the answer is an obvious NO.

 

 

Thanks for the lesson, but I live in Tx too .

[Tamberav]

My experience is different from Glenn's. My tangs and other fish (even occy clownfish) tend to have more aggressive behavior in small tanks vs big ones. Otherwise they act the same but I would say that aggressive behavior is a sign of them not having enough space. Obviously depends on what other fish are in the tank, ect.

[glennr1978]

The real issue is that we are anthropomorphizing fish in general, until studies come out that show fish have real emotion beyond the realm of (stressed and unstressed, which I believe are poorly used terms as they also relate to a human emotion) we can't say where a fish is happiest.

 

On that note, if I were a fish you know what would make me happy, being comfortable knowing nothing around is going to eat me.

 

 

Exactly. It absolutely baffles me that people will reach so hard to make their point by comparing a fish to a horse, dog, human, etc... That is when I will typically bow out. That said, I'm out . I'm off to the LFS to see if they have any fish that I'm interested in for my new 40 (and yes, a tang will be on the list, lol).

 

Later guys!!

[glennr1978]

My experience is different from Glenn's. My tangs and other fish (even occy clownfish) tend to have more aggressive behavior in small tanks vs big ones. Otherwise they act the same but I would say that aggressive behavior is a sign of them not having enough space. Obviously depends on what other fish are in the tank, ect.

 

 

Clearly. There are many factors that come into play.

[Tamberav]

Clearly. There are many factors that come into play.

 

Yeah, for sure. I think stocking levels and types of fish is a major one.

 

As someone said, those damsels have no place in that tank. It probably would have been better if he just had 1 small tang like a tomini or kole.

[Dr.Brain Coral]

Cameron made a very important point. Tangs roam huge areas in the wild. I don't (dont hate me for this) feel tangs are a fish that we should be putting in our tanks. Unless you have a large tank where they can get more than a few seconds of sprints. Its the same way with birds getting there wings clipped. Its like handcuffing dogs legs together. They can move but not they way they are meant to.

[tibbsy07]

well as long as we're taking their preferences into consideration, wouldn't they prefer to be left in the ocean?

Probably. But if you are supplying food and a safe place, then my guess is they're happy. I'm simply saying that if a fish is an active fish, it should be in a tank that allows for it to be active. I don't believe in keeping active dogs in a small apartment unless the owner takes them out religiously. I don't believe in keeping large, active fish in small tanks.

 

The real issue is that we are anthropomorphizing fish in general, until studies come out that show fish have real emotion beyond the realm of (stressed and unstressed, which I believe are poorly used terms as they also relate to a human emotion) we can't say where a fish is happiest.

 

On that note, if I were a fish you know what would make me happy, being comfortable knowing nothing around is going to eat me.

Sure, the second point is totally valid. And while I understand your point about stressed/unstressed - there are very real physical components to stress, not just emotion (I can't even list them, there are so many science publications on this). Fish probably don't have happy/unhappy emotions, but again they do feel pain (Brown et al. Animal Cognition Journal, 2014). If that's the case, then by having them as a pet, it would be considered abuse to keep them in painful conditions. Technically, by law, they aren't subject to animal cruelty laws (yet), but we are supposed to be taking good care of them.

[hey]

Probably. But if you are supplying food and a safe place, then my guess is they're happy. I'm simply saying that if a fish is an active fish, it should be in a tank that allows for it to be active. I don't believe in keeping active dogs in a small apartment unless the owner takes them out religiously. I don't believe in keeping large, active fish in small tanks.

 

Sure, the second point is totally valid. And while I understand your point about stressed/unstressed - there are very real physical components to stress, not just emotion (I can't even list them, there are so many science publications on this). Fish probably don't have happy/unhappy emotions, but again they do feel pain (Brown et al. Animal Cognition Journal, 2014). If that's the case, then by having them as a pet, it would be considered abuse to keep them in painful conditions. Technically, by law, they aren't subject to animal cruelty laws (yet), but we are supposed to be taking good care of them.

 

i am all for taking the best care of my fish as I possibly can, and I understand there are physical components to stress as well but I still feel like it is a poorly used term in relation to fish as it gives them a human quality ( I can't fault anyone on this I can't think of a better term for the illness that occurs when a fish is kept in less than ideal conditions). I feel all living things deserve a respect, I don't feel that giving them emotions and treating them as though they were humans has any benefit to their care.

[Cameron6796]

I think that this has become a lot more of a useful topic to discuss because we know are addressing the fish as not by its size but by its health and natural behaviours. I feel this is important and actually useful. I'm going to possibly change the title and remove the link, title ideas?

[glennr1978]

Cameron made a very important point. Tangs roam huge areas in the wild. I don't (dont hate me for this) feel tangs are a fish that we should be putting in our tanks. Unless you have a large tank where they can get more than a few seconds of sprints. Its the same way with birds getting there wings clipped. Its like handcuffing dogs legs together. They can move but not they way they are meant to.

 

 

Honestly, you're probably right. Short of a 30' long tank none of us are keeping tangs "properly". Even in formula's 13 footer a tang could easily cover the entire tank in probably less than 2 seconds. Not nearly the same as the kind of distance they cover in the wild. Which led to my thought, if none of us are really doing it right then why are we complaining about the tank in the video? Kinda hypocritical, IMO.

[Dr.Brain Coral]

Proper Tang care discussion.

[glennr1978]

I think that this has become a lot more of a useful topic to discuss because we know are addressing the fish as not by its size but by its health and natural behaviours. I feel this is important and actually useful. I'm going to possibly change the title and remove the link, title ideas?

 

 

Nothing wrong with keeping it the way it is. It definitely grabs attention

[Cameron6796]

Oh well it seems to upset some people and caused hateful comments so the link is now removed.

 

I'm glad this is getting attention though. Hopefully this can become something where good discussion is born

[tibbsy07]

i am all for taking the best care of my fish as I possibly can, and I understand there are physical components to stress as well but I still feel like it is a poorly used term in relation to fish as it gives them a human quality ( I can't fault anyone on this I can't think of a better term for the illness that occurs when a fish is kept in less than ideal conditions). I feel all living things deserve a respect, I don't feel that giving them emotions and treating them as though they were humans has any benefit to their care.

I think that anthropomorphizing them actually does have a benefit. Studies have shown in hostage negotiations, or business interviews, etc. saying names and reminding whomever is being addressed that humans are involved results in more positive outcomes for all involved. Same thing with large aquariums and TV shows about nature - the more people see animals in their habitat and understand them, the more they are willing to care. We have a tendency to anthropomorphize things we care about and it would seem to me that by doing so here (even though it sounds a bit crazy), we start to get more people in the hobby who view their livestock as living, breathing, real animals and not just toys in a glass box with water.

[GHill762]

Oh well it seems to upset some people and caused hateful comments so the link is now removed.

 

I'm glad this is getting attention though. Hopefully this can become something where good discussion is born

hmm.. tang tank size... that's never been a topic of discussion on any forum before..

 

lol, didn't your last tang police thread get locked by the mods for spiralling out of control?

[glennr1978]

Oh well it seems to upset some people and caused hateful comments

 

Par for the course in these threads.

[Halo_003]

My opinion is this:

 

If the tangs are healthy and are kept well, then it's okay. This doesn't mean I'd try to keep an Achilles tang in my 20 long, but if it's a reasonably small tang that is doing well it should be fine, at least temporarily. IF I was to try a tang in a small tank it'd probably be a 24x24x12, 30G. Because it has a large footprint. Is it enough for a large tang? Nope not in my opinion, but a baby tang would probably do very nicely in it until it's large enough to go in my hypothetical 20'x6'x2' tank with the other big tangs.

 

Remember a lot of us keep fish in tanks some would consider to be unnatural. An example is a mandarin or scooter blenny in a 10-20G tank. I personally keep a red scooter in my 20 long and he does really nicely, eating frozen and I have plenty of rocks right now for him to hunt and perch on. Others keep wrasses and dwarf angels in small tanks like a 20 long. Realistically nothing we can provide is large enough for them to truly be in a natural environment, but so long as they're healthy and they don't look to be overly stressed then I can't complain too much. There's someone on here who had a baby yellow tang in his 10 gallon along with 2 clowns. Now I wouldn't recommend it, but if it truly is a temporary stage then it should be okay.

 

It comes down to what you feel is ethical. Sure I could keep a 4" Achilles tang in my 20 long, but I don't feel it would be good for the fish so I won't. A Kole or Tomini tang would probably be fine in a 24x24x12, some may object but as long as proper conditions are provided it could last happily for quite some time. (Note: I personally wouldn't keep a tang in less than 60 gallons, and that would be a 48"x24"x12". They need a good size footprint in my opinion).

[Tamberav]

Kinda hypocritical, IMO.

 

Well this hobby is hypocritical. We are removing fish from the wild and plenty die along the way. I commend those trying to breed new fish so we can have less of an impact on wild populations.

[hey]

I think that anthropomorphizing them actually does have a benefit. Studies have shown in hostage negotiations, or business interviews, etc. saying names and reminding whomever is being addressed that humans are involved results in more positive outcomes for all involved. Same thing with large aquariums and TV shows about nature - the more people see animals in their habitat and understand them, the more they are willing to care. We have a tendency to anthropomorphize things we care about and it would seem to me that by doing so here (even though it sounds a bit crazy), we start to get more people in the hobby who view their livestock as living, breathing, real animals and not just toys in a glass box with water.

Awareness is indeed very important, animal care is very individualized based on species though making it very difficult to give broad rules for success.

 

I am not trying to sound like a complete jerk by saying that if you are able to keep a successful reef tank you are indeed most likely smarter than the population that can't. A lot of research goes into it and knowing how to obtain the information needed and then to be able to apply the knowledge attained is a completely different challenge. Education is key in this hobby and many folks simply do not or are not capable of truly understanding an animals needs.

 

If anyone hasn't noticed I am neither for nor against this tang argument, more or less just devils advocate here.

 

I do have an opinion of big fish in small tanks look cheesy, I like my aquariums to look like a slice of nature the scale has to look right.

[tibbsy07]

Well this hobby is hypocritical. We are removing fish from the wild and plenty die along the way. I commend those trying to breed new fish so we can have less of an impact on wild populations.

This is true. Also how many fish and coral "die" that we go "Oh darn." and then simply replace. I love this hobby, but it is a double-edged sword, in a way. I'm trying to exclusively use aquacultured fish/coral now, or get it from local reefers. No more wild-caught for me. My wife and I have been talking about this a lot, actually.

[Mr. Microscope]

[tibbsy07]

Awareness is indeed very important, animal care is very individualized based on species though making it very difficult to give broad rules for success.

 

I am not trying to sound like a complete jerk by saying that if you are able to keep a successful reef tank you are indeed most likely smarter than the population that can't. A lot of research goes into it and knowing how to obtain the information needed and then to be able to apply the knowledge attained is a completely different challenge. Education is key in this hobby and many folks simply do not or are not capable of truly understanding an animals needs.

 

If anyone hasn't noticed I am neither for nor against this tang argument, more or less just devils advocate here.

 

I do have an opinion of big fish in small tanks look cheesy, I like my aquariums to look like a slice of nature the scale has to look right.

Oh I totally understand your point - I didn't think you were saying "hooray big fish tiny tank". So far - and it's good because as others have pointed out, these things often go downhill very quickly - it's been a nice, civil discussion overall. I'm glad to be discussing this in such a way. I think it's important for us all to think about.