self sustaining aquariums

[amphipod]

OK so here's the thing, I have this freshwater aquarium that I have made " self sustaining ".

How it works there is actually 2 aquariums, one is a blackworm colony the other one is the display fish eat blackworms, or flakes fish poop. Fish poop eaten by snails. Plants absorb toxins and snail poop, plants grow. Snails eat some plants, oh well, I take excess plants throw away or dry and feed to blackworms. Cycle starts again. Fish get feed every 2 days.

Could we do a similar setup with marine, no filters protein skimmers or other unusual devices with little to no work put in our aquariums?

[badwhiskey]

You need several macro refugiums daisy chained together and an extreme low bioload..so lets say you have a 55 display and two more 55 gallon macro refugiums with snails and pods and rock and say you only have 3-4 fish in the display..you COULD eventually over time create a self running bio system.

 

but never ever think you can just sit back and do ZERO water changes and regular maintance.

[Alexraptor]

Its not too hard to create a system that has water changes far and few behind, like 6 months to a year.

But eventually every system of any significant complexity must have an infusion of new and fresh water.

[xiaoxiy]

Its not too hard to create a system that has water changes far and few behind, like 6 months to a year.

But eventually every system of any significant complexity must have an infusion of new and fresh water.

And depending on the livestock you choose to stock in your aquarium, it may be necessary to either do these water changes or dose various additives to replace the nutrients (i.e calcium and such) used by the organisms in your tank to grow.

[Alexraptor]

Big problem being all the various trace elements, as the average hobbyist impossibly can test for them all, which creates a risk of deficiencies over time.

[markalot]

The biggest difference with saltwater is that you can end up with a ionic imbalance that will end up nuking the tank. As evaporation happens you topoff with fresh water but you also get some salt creep, which by itself would slowly change the balance of the water. Of course you are also growing things, like algae and corals and these use up things int he water at various rates. Generally we all use some kind of 2 part system, or Kalc, to try and keep the big ingredients balanced but all the while everything is slowly changing.

 

So, in short, I don't think it can be done without a regular infusion of fresh saltwater. No idea how regular it needs to be.

[amphipod]

Recently I am trying a cause a self sustainer for marine, I am using aiptasia and bubble algae because if they die so what they cost me nothing. The aiptasia thrives, but then again they are practically the wolverine of polyps. Also through experience with fresh water it can take moths to achieve balance. BTW couldn't salt creep be totally eliminated by keeping an aquarium cover allowing condensation, and not having any external filters/protein skimmers?

 

Come to think of it adding trace chemicals could work as a single exception because without them there is absolutely no chance of your organisms survival.

[badwhiskey]

Nope...theres a huge thing with reef tanks called gas exchange=effects of PH balance=problems

[amphipod]

So we obviously need to get rid of CO² why not have a refugium of hate to say it to some... ALGAE for stability, and have some other organisms to eat access algae?

[D Z]

So we obviously need to get rid of CO² why not have a refugium of hate to say it to some... ALGAE for stability, and have some other organisms to eat access algae?

This is why a lot of people keep a refugium with beneficial macro algaes.

[jestep]

Just curious how large is the FW tank you have going and what is the stocking. FW tanks are pretty awful at removing NO3 even in extremely heavily planted tanks so I'm definitely curious how you pulled the NO3 removal off.

 

As far as marine goes, nitrate export is significantly easier in SW so this sort of tank should be much easier to establish and maintain than a FW version. With hardy coral selections, you may not need to worry a ton about trace elements. Good live rock and the substrate will remove NO3 assuming stocking is kept very reasonable. Macros do remove NO3 but not very many. Will have to find it, but there was an article discussing how large of a refugium would be needed to effectively export NO3 by itself and it was many times the size of the DT for typical stocking. They're great for a space to grow pods and smaller fauna, but really aren't effective for NO3 removal.

 

As far as salt replenishment goes, I do think this sort of tank could go a long time without major additions. If it's a large tank, I could see it lasting years without any significant addition of salt or trace elements or any water changes if it is very well planned.

 

As for stocking something like a springer's damsel flatworm combo might work. The flatworms reproduce like crazy if they can't be eaten, and many springer's feast on these guys.

[xiaoxiy]

I just realized that what you're describing pretty much sounds like PJ reef jar.

 

Closed system and water changes mainly for replenishing nutrients.

[Alexraptor]

Just curious how large is the FW tank you have going and what is the stocking. FW tanks are pretty awful at removing NO3 even in extremely heavily planted tanks so I'm definitely curious how you pulled the NO3 removal off.

 

As far as marine goes, nitrate export is significantly easier in SW so this sort of tank should be much easier to establish and maintain than a FW version. With hardy coral selections, you may not need to worry a ton about trace elements. Good live rock and the substrate will remove NO3 assuming stocking is kept very reasonable. Macros do remove NO3 but not very many. Will have to find it, but there was an article discussing how large of a refugium would be needed to effectively export NO3 by itself and it was many times the size of the DT for typical stocking. They're great for a space to grow pods and smaller fauna, but really aren't effective for NO3 removal.

 

As far as salt replenishment goes, I do think this sort of tank could go a long time without major additions. If it's a large tank, I could see it lasting years without any significant addition of salt or trace elements or any water changes if it is very well planned.

 

As for stocking something like a springer's damsel flatworm combo might work. The flatworms reproduce like crazy if they can't be eaten, and many springer's feast on these guys.

 

Honestly this seems to be some kind of myth I have heard being perpetuated like crazy lately, and I cannot find any basis for it.

I have seen first hand how species like Cheatomorpha are extremely efficient at removing both NO3 and PO4 from systems.

[amphipod]

Here's a pic of my 10 gal freshwater, as you can see its heavily planted with hornwort and elodea, I put others in for decorations only. I'm a strong believer in only real plants.

 

There is also like 11 fish and 3 dwarf African clawed frogs.

[Timfish]

Dr. Jaubert has done this in the mid 80's. I would suggest getting Delbeek and Sprung's "The Reef Aquarium" Vol III and reading the section on different filtering methodologies (it's available on ibooks). The longterm problem irregardless of whether it's salt or fresh water is build up of Total Organic Carbon (TOC) or Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC) which will build up ina system. Another issue is the build up of refractory compounds in the water which are very difficult to test for.

[amphipod]

By removing excess plants and algae you rid the extra carbon. And BTW don't stony corals add many of the dissolved minerals in seawater for the skeletons?

[Timfish]

By removing excess plants and algae you rid the extra carbon. And BTW don't stony corals add many of the dissolved minerals in seawater for the skeletons?

 

I'm not sure what you mean by the second part of your post. Corals hosting Symbodinium spp dinoflagellates are pulling out nitrogen (ammonium, nitrates, amino acids), phosphates, carbonates and buffering components from the water. There are biological processes that will attack the exposed skeleton of corals and release many of these components back into the water.

 

It is true plants and algaes are removing some of the compounds that fall under the heading of TOC or DOC but they are also releasing compounds into the water that will add to the TOC or DOC levels. Pulling out the surplus still leaves organisms releasing compounds back into the water There are many thousands of compounds that fall under the label of organic carbon and for all practical purposes we can't test for them. It certainly is true some aquarists have done some impressive jobs balancing thier systems and if you want to try it I would suggest you start by reading up as much as you can on Dr. Juabert's methodologies.

 

Besides Delbeek and Sprung's book I mentioned above you might also enjoy these research articles by Ken Feldman, et al,

 

Ganulated Activated Carbon pt. 1 & 2

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/1/aafeature1

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/2/aafeature1

 

Total Organic Carbon in Aquaria

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/8/aafeature3

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/9/aafeature2

 

Protein Skimate Analysis

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/2/aafeature

 

Protein Skimmer Performance

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/1/aafeature2

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/1/aafeature

 

Bacterial Counts in Aquaria vs Reefs

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2011/3/aafeature1

[DriftingNemo]

I have a 5 gallon planted tank with 3 Leopard Danios that I could relate to your self sustaining idea. I had the tank with a tiny, iPhone sized filter with some ceramic media and rubble rock (for beneficial bacteria) and some carbon sponge. The filter was there mainly for flow because I believe that every aquarium needs some sort of water movement. I also had some low intensity LED's and the plant growth was surprisingly good. The substrate was soil capped with gravel and the extra fish waste and uneaten food would break down and feed the plants. The tank is stuffed with fast growing stem plants to absorb all the excess nutrients and required no water changes except for evaporation top ups.

[amphipod]

How long did it last? Also I got my method from a 1960s aquarium book, and experience but it took 4 years to learn how to do it right

[DriftingNemo]

How long did it last? Also I got my method from a 1960s aquarium book, and experience but it took 4 years to learn how to do it right

The tank is still running, but I decided to add a larger filter and a DIY co2 system. I also started doing monthly water changes.

[amphipod]

Mine has no filter,and I only usually ever do a water change when i can no longer see the fish (yeah it has got that green before) as you can see, the tank is heavily over grown with hornwort.

[DriftingNemo]

Mine has no filter,and I only usually ever do a water change when i can no longer see the fish (yeah it has got that green before) as you can see, the tank is heavily over grown with hornwort.

I've never had a green water issue in my life. I use a lot of Water Wisteria because it looks really cool underwater and when it grows past the water surface. I've also managed to grow some nice Cryptocoryne species, it may be due to the soil substrate. I really want to have a 55g reef tank and a nice cube planted tank next to it (ADA style). But that requires big bucks.

[amphipod]

Aggreed marine tanks are really expensive, too expensive my tanks, if you want to call them tanks are 3/4 gal for one and 1/2 pint for the other.

[DriftingNemo]

Well you could try and go down the DIY route and pay a fraction of what it would cost to set up a nice reef tank, but personally I am terrible at DIY and anything that I make catches fire. I've always wanted a medium sized tank (55-90 gallons) with top spec equipment. And maybe use Julian Sprung's idea of a display refugium with fish, coral, macroalgae and mangroves.

[amphipod]

With my freshwater tanks I will collect water weeds to obtain specimens like tubifex, gammarus, ascellus etc to culture in my tanks.