I am clueless as to why nothing in my system is growing!

[evan127]

So, I have been in the hobby for 7+ years. I upgraded my standard 40 breeder to a rimless 48. That was in January. I carried over all my live rock, washed my sand except for a few cups, etc.

 

Fast forward to today. Nothing is growing in my system and I can not figure out why that is. SPS, LPS, zoanthids, etc just are not growing. To make this a little easier, I made a list of my systems current stats and equipment.

 

Lets start with equipment first:

• 48 gallon display, about 15 gallon sump
• Refugium
• Bubble Magus 3.5 protein skimmer
• Mag 5 return (just upgraded to 9.5)
• Ecotech Radion Gen 2 (Will attach picture)
• Ecotech Vortech MP10 (usually 75% reef crest or long pulse to 30 seconds)

Here are my current parameters:

 

Quick note; everything was out of whack about 2 months ago. Long story short, bad test kits. Low alkalinity, calcium. Everything has been in check for the past 2 months.

 

• dKH - 11
• Ca - 420
• Mg - 1480
• Salinity - 1.025
• Temperature - 79F
• I also preform 10% water changes twice a month with Red Sea Pro Salt
• I have been dosing BRS two part accordingly.

 

My current feeding schedule:

 

• Mysis and krill blend once a week
• New Life Spectrum pellets every other day
• Ocean Nutrition Prime Reef flakes every other day
• Green marine algae every day (silver dollar size) every day

 

Any help would be much appreciated. I don't know what I am doing wrong. I have had great success in the past, but for some reason this system is currently stagnate.

 

Thanks!!

 

 

[evan127]

I should have been more clear on the lighting. The highest points are 14k and the second lowest are 18k. The others are blue or deep blue, depending on the time of day

[Lynaea]

Do you have any fish/CUC? Have you tried feeding any of the coral foods (ReefSnow, Kent liquid foods, ReefRoids, etc)?

 

I feed fish size food as well as the smaller particle and liquid foods and everything seems to be growing well. I definitely have new zoa sprouts and my gorgonians mostly look happy. I haven't had LPS long enough to tell for sure about growth but they look happy.

[TFish77]

I was gonna say the same thing. Corals have to eat too. I have had a lot of success using a combination of roti feast and oyster feast for my corals and frozen pe mysis and cyclopeez for my fish. That should help.

[seabass]

Just a few quick thoughts. Obviously, the previous alkalinity problems have caused some health problems. First the corals need to adjust to the new levels, recover, then finally they will be more likely to grow.

 

I'd boost the temperature to 82°F. This will increase the metabolic rate.

 

What are the nutrient levels of the water (phosphate and nitrate)? And which test kits do you use for phosphate?

 

Are you experiencing other problems (like Cyano, Dinos, etc)?

 

So are you primarily just feeding the fish? Maybe you need to feed your corals more (something like Coral Frenzy).

Edit: Oops, got beat to that point.

[evan127]

Do you have any fish/CUC? Have you tried feeding any of the coral foods (ReefSnow, Kent liquid foods, ReefRoids, etc)?

I feed fish size food as well as the smaller particle and liquid foods and everything seems to be growing well. I definitely have new zoa sprouts and my gorgonians mostly look happy. I haven't had LPS long enough to tell for sure about growth but they look happy.

 

I have 5 fish. Two clownfish, a sixline, a yellow watchman (and tiger shrimp), and a yellow tang. My cleanup crew consists of 60+ dwarf ceriths, 10+/- hermits, and 2 giant turbo snails.

 

I have not been target feeding. I will look into adding that into my regiment. Thanks!

[evan127]

Just a few quick thoughts. Obviously, the previous alkalinity problems have caused some health problems. First the corals need to adjust to the new levels, recover, then finally they will be more likely to grow.

 

I'd boost the temperature to 82°F. This will increase the metabolic rate.

 

What are the nutrient levels of the water (phosphate and nitrate)? And which test kits do you use for phosphate?

 

Are you experiencing other problems (like Cyano, Dinos, etc)?

 

So are you primarily just feeding the fish? Maybe you need to feed your corals more (something like http://www.amazon.com/Coral-Frenzy-`The-Ultimate-Food`/dp/B001ELTOXS/ref=sr_1_1/185-8781692-5614804?ie=UTF8&qid=1407256854&sr=8-1&keywords=coral+frenzy'>Coral Frenzy).

Edit: Oops, got beat to that point.

 

Im not questioning you, but is 2 months not a long enough recovery period?

 

I'll raise my temperature to 82. Will there be any ill effect raising it in one day from 79? Should I do it slowly over a few days?

 

I don't have any algae except some dinos. Nothing else.

 

I am going to look at these foods at my LFS ASAP.

 

As far as testing for phosphates, I was using the Red Sea kit but threw that out when I discovered the bad dKH and Ca tests. I have yet to replace it. I am going to pick up a phosphate kit at the LFS. I have been feeding less and staying on top of my water changes. I plan to add a GFO reactor too in the future.

[markalot]

This is not the newbie forum, so here goes.

 

You've been in the hobby 7 years? Keeping corals for 7 years? Do you need to come clean here?

 

 

Im not questioning you, but is 2 months not a long enough recovery period?

 

So if you aren't questioning him what is that squiggly line at the end of the sentence above? Fact is there is no definitive answer. If Alk was a real problem for an extended period of time then 2 months might not be enough time, and even then it all depends on the species.

 

 

I'll raise my temperature to 82. Will there be any ill effect raising it in one day from 79? Should I do it slowly over a few days?

 

7 years without any temperature swings? Mine can swing 2 degrees in a day, and many corals species experience bigger swings in nature. Do everything slowly, say one degree a day, and you should be fine, but in general the slower the better. I say this not because I'm worried about a 2 degree swing but because slower is ALWAYS better.

 

 

I don't have any algae except some dinos. Nothing else.

 

This makes no sense. Dinos are bad, algae not so bad.

 

 

As far as testing for phosphates, I was using the Red Sea kit but threw that out when I discovered the bad dKH and Ca tests. I have yet to replace it. I am going to pick up a phosphate kit at the LFS. I have been feeding less and staying on top of my water changes. I plan to add a GFO reactor too in the future.

 

You threw out all the kits because you claim both were bad? How did you know they were bad if you don't have any other kits? Please don't tell me some pimple faced kid at the LFS tested your water.

 

Why are you going to add a GFO reactor? Do you need one? You need a test kit first.

 

IMO try the Salifert phosphate test, order it online if the LFS does not carry them. It's not the best, but their low range test turns a very attractive blue if you have any phosphates at all. Unless you do an accurate test and it comes out unusually high (over .1) I would not worry about it, but that's just me.

[evan127]

This is not the newbie forum, so here goes.

 

You've been in the hobby 7 years? Keeping corals for 7 years? Do you need to come clean here?

Yes, I have been in the hobby for about 7 years now, keeping corals healthy the whole while and have never come across someone so rude.

So if you aren't questioning him what is that squiggly line at the end of the sentence above? Fact is there is no definitive answer. If Alk was a real problem for an extended period of time then 2 months might not be enough time, and even then it all depends on the species.

That squiggly line would be a question mark. I am simply asking about the timeframe because I am ignorant on corals recovering from a large alkalinity swing such as the one I experienced. Its a new thing for me, so I am simply trying to gather some clarification.

7 years without any temperature swings? Mine can swing 2 degrees in a day, and many corals species experience bigger swings in nature. Do everything slowly, say one degree a day, and you should be fine, but in general the slower the better. I say this not because I'm worried about a 2 degree swing but because slower is ALWAYS better.

Yes, 7 years without a temperature swing.

This makes no sense. Dinos are bad, algae not so bad.

What does not make sense? I don't have any algae outbreaks, just a few spots of dinos here and there on my sand bed.

You threw out all the kits because you claim both were bad? How did you know they were bad if you don't have any other kits? Please don't tell me some pimple faced kid at the LFS tested your water.

I knew they were bad because I borrowed someone's kit and compared the results. I don't recall the exact results, but they were drastically different. I figured since both test kits were in the same set, it would be safer to dispose of them all. As you can gather from reading above, I tested my own system using Red Sea test kits

Why are you going to add a GFO reactor? Do you need one? You need a test kit first.

To add as a safety blanket on top of the water changes and reduced feedings. Regarding the test kit, you can gather some of that information by reading above

IMO try the Salifert phosphate test, order it online if the LFS does not carry them. It's not the best, but their low range test turns a very attractive blue if you have any phosphates at all. Unless you do an accurate test and it comes out unusually high (over .1) I would not worry about it, but that's just me.

Thanks for the first helpful advice from your post. I have certainly heard great things about the Salifert test kits. Easy to use, easy to read. I will see if my LFS has them and give that a try. Thanks!

[markalot]

Hey Evan,

 

found and looked at your tank thread and I think I see a few issues.

 

 

So I adjusted my alkalinity. I raised it to 11.2 dhK by dosing 110mL of Aquavitro EightFour. Calcium is 490. Magnesium is 1400. I think I'm back in the green. I don't know how the dhK fell so drastically so quickly, I haven't changed anything in my system. Some of my chalices are showing a bit of skeleton. Same with my blastomussas.

 

Apparently you raised Alk from 6.5 to 11.2 in one day. You're lucky everything didn't die right then and there. Alk swings are the most damaging thing that can happen in a reef tank.

 

 

Oh man, I just tested my water and my alkalinity is super low! Like in the 6s. What is going on?

 

This was from the day before. What's going on is you put some really nice corals in your tank (which looks great) and they are eating your Alk and calcium. A lot of people seem to make this mistake when adding SPS. Your tank was doing well and the SPS were happy so they started growing, which in a 40 gallon can drop Alk 1KH in a days time, or more.

 

Also be sure to test at the same time every day and understand that Calcium and Magnesium levels also effect Alk levels, so testing before and after dosing will change readings.

 

I see some expensive bottles of unicorn sauce on your shelf there. LFS likes you, you might want to avoid them for a while.

 

None of this is unique to you, we all go through this to some extent or another IMO.

[seabass]

... is 2 months not a long enough recovery period?

Hard to say what affect the swings will have and how long it will take to recover. Correcting a parameter can also be stressful if done too quickly. I don't believe this is the one and only reason for your stagnant growth.

 

I'll raise my temperature to 82. Will there be any ill effect raising it in one day from 79? Should I do it slowly over a few days?

That might help, but I'm not sure what that will do to your bloom. Making the conditions more favorable for coral growth (more food and a higher temp) might also encourage the Dino bloom. You might try fixing that first.

 

I don't have any algae except some dinos.

Dinos can affect coral health/growth. They can also be kind of a bear to get rid of. And (although I've beaten it before) I can't give you a foolproof recipe to kick it. Do some more research on Dinos and make getting rid of it a priority.

 

 

Phosphate can actually help corals grow (energy = growth). However it can also negatively affect coloration. It will also affect calcification if kept too high. And then also lead to algae (and other) blooms. So not only should you be concerned about it being too high, but also too low.

[markalot]

To add as a safety blanket on top of the water changes and reduced feedings. Regarding the test kit, you can gather some of that information by reading above

 

 

You will end up like i did, no algae, pale unheatlhy corals, and generally an unhappy tank. In fact you want to feed heavy, keep your exports up, and use GFO in response to a measured or visible issue. I still don't use phosphate remover on a regular basis.

[evan127]

Hey Evan,

 

found and looked at your tank thread and I think I see a few issues.

 

 

 

Apparently you raised Alk from 6.5 to 11.2 in one day. You're lucky everything didn't die right then and there. Alk swings are the most damaging thing that can happen in a reef tank.

Well, if you look at the dates of that post it was in December, of last year

This was from the day before. What's going on is you put some really nice corals in your tank (which looks great) and they are eating your Alk and calcium. A lot of people seem to make this mistake when adding SPS. Your tank was doing well and the SPS were happy so they started growing, which in a 40 gallon can drop Alk 1KH in a days time, or more.

I realize that by adding corals (specifically SPS) to the system they will consume the alkalinity and calcium I just didn't realize at the time how rapidly those parameters would fall.

Also be sure to test at the same time every day and understand that Calcium and Magnesium levels also effect Alk levels, so testing before and after dosing will change readings.

You clearly think I am an idiot

I see some expensive bottles of unicorn sauce on your shelf there. LFS likes you, you might want to avoid them for a while.

Once again, from reading above, you can gather I am using the BRS two part solution. That picture was from my thread in 2013..

None of this is unique to you, we all go through this to some extent or another IMO.

I know that it is not unique to me. That is why I started this thread, to gather other people's insight and advice.

 

 

Hard to say what affect the swings will have and how long it will take to recover. Correcting a parameter can also be stressful if done too quickly. I don't believe this is the one reason for your stagnant growth.

 

That might help, but I'm not sure what that will do to your bloom. Making the conditions more favorable for coral growth (more food and a higher temp) might also encourage the Dino bloom. You might try fixing that first.

 

They can affect health/growth. Dinos can affect coral health/growth. Kind of a bear to get rid of; and (although I've beaten it before) I can't give you a foolproof recipe to kick it. Do some more research on Dinos and make getting rid of it a priority.

 

 

Phosphate can actually help corals grow (energy = growth). However it can affect the coloration; and it will affect calcification if too high. It can also lead to algae (and other) blooms. So not only should you be concerned about it being too high, but also too low.

 

 

Thanks so much seabass! I really appreciate the advice!

 

I have had to deal with dino outbreaks in the past, but this is pretty minute compared. I am going to get rid of the dinos first and then slowly bring up my temperature.

 

As far as the phosphates, I will get a new test today and check to see where that parameter is at the current moment. Thanks again!

[seabass]

Evan, I get your frustration, but Mark is trying to help (and not just insulting you). I think his comments are relevant and is relating some of his personal experience. It's almost impossible to tell the experience level of a poster, so it is often better to assume that they might not know something like how proper magnesium levels can affect the balance of calcium and alkalinity. He even went so far to check your build thread to see if he could find something that might help you.

[markalot]

You clearly think I am an idiot

 

Nope, just not giving us the entire story. Basically, if what you say is true, there is no reason for your corals not to be growing. Right?

[evan127]

Evan, I get your frustration, but Mark is trying to help (and not just insulting you). I think his comments are relevant and is relating some of his personal experience. It's almost impossible to tell the experience level of a poster, so it is often better to assume that they might not know something like how proper magnesium levels can affect the balance of calcium and alkalinity. He even went so far to check your build thread to see if he could find something that might help you.

I agree, it is very difficult to gauge a hobbyist's experience. Nonetheless, there is a polite and constructive way to give advice and a seemingly condescending way to give advice.

[ReviloM]

Try switching to 10,000K for a month with a slow ramp from 30%to 100%. It may not look as pretty but you should experience growth with your current routine.

[Amphiprion1]

Try switching to 10,000K for a month with a slow ramp from 30%to 100%. It may not look as pretty but you should experience growth with your current routine.

 

Not sure how well that would translate in terms of LEDs, where blue diodes typically output higher PAR and PUR. Not that white light shouldn't theoretically provide overall higher levels of energy per unit energy consumed, but white LEDs are less efficient in how they work vs. blue ones. This is, of course, unless this has changed, as I am not as up to speed on LEDs as I should be.

 

Now in terms of other sources of lighting, this is usually the case.

[markalot]

I agree, it is very difficult to gauge a hobbyist's experience. Nonetheless, there is a polite and constructive way to give advice and a seemingly condescending way to give advice.

 

Look around Evan. The common theme for these Q&A threads is people trying to help and the poster doubting the answer or assuming they have provided all the information not realizing something of importance has been left out.

 

You can take it as condescending if you want, that's your choice. Maybe if I was there and was smiling at you asking what the hell are you doing, it wouldn't seem as bad? I've only been in the reef hobby for 2.5 years and I crashed my tank twice due to lack of knowledge. You may consider me an idiot if you like, my only care is that my reef tank looks good and the wife is happy. Maybe in reverse order.

 

You had good luck in the past, so think about what you changed?

 

Why are you keeping Alk all the way up at 11 when SPS do better at 7.5 - 8.5? Nothing needs Alk that high and if/when your corals get happy it will be very hard to maintain that high Alk without dosing a lot or constantly swinging Alk daily which will piss off the corals and lead to low growth and bad color. A doser is always an option, of course, but more $$$

 

Did you keep SPS in the past? All corals are sensitive to Alk swings but generally adding SPS is what leads to these swings and then everything suffers. Do you know what your daily Alk usage is? Do you make sure to dose equal parts of Two Part based on Alk usage? I know I made this mistake so I'm asking just to make sure.

 

How often do you change the water and how much? Did you mention what salt brand?

[ReviloM]

The higher the Kelvin the slower the growth.

 

10,000K promotes most growth but least coloration

14,000K promotes growth and some coloration

18,000K promotes little growth and better coloration

20,000K promotes least growth and best coloration

 

Not sure how well that would translate in terms of LEDs, where blue diodes typically output higher PAR and PUR. Not that white light shouldn't theoretically provide overall higher levels of energy per unit energy consumed, but white LEDs are less efficient in how they work vs. blue ones. This is, of course, unless this has changed, as I am not as up to speed on LEDs as I should be.

 

Now in terms of other sources of lighting, this is usually the case.

[markalot]

The higher the Kelvin the slower the growth.

 

10,000K promotes most growth but least coloration

14,000K promotes growth and some coloration

18,000K promotes little growth and better coloration

20,000K promotes least growth and best coloration

 

I think this only applies to halide bulbs. I don't believe lack of growth is a lighting problem in this case, but I really have no idea. Besides, 20K bulbs did not result in no growth, just slower, but much better coral colors. I know I'm in it for the color.

[ReviloM]

I think this only applies to halide bulbs. I don't believe lack of growth is a lighting problem in this case, but I really have no idea. Besides, 20K bulbs did not result in no growth, just slower, but much better coral colors. I know I'm in it for the color.

Here's an experiment I conducted a last year using radions. Also, I stated LEAST growth not NO growth.

 

http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/327800-marquiseos-i-love-anthias-and-sps-tank-new-anthias-post-120/?p=4482885

[markalot]

Here's an experiment I conducted a last year using radions.

 

http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/327800-marquiseos-i-love-anthias-and-sps-tank-new-anthias-post-120/?p=4482885

 

Very interesting. This could also be why so many people give up on LED since most are so heavy in the blue spectrum. I might have to try this with my Razors at some point, maybe vacation like you, to see if I can get a jump on growth.

[Arkayology]

Im not questioning you, but is 2 months not a long enough recovery period? I'll raise my temperature to 82. Will there be any ill effect raising it in one day from 79? Should I do it slowly over a few days? I don't have any algae except some dinos. Nothing else. I am going to look at these foods at my LFS ASAP. As far as testing for phosphates, I was using the Red Sea kit but threw that out when I discovered the bad dKH and Ca tests. I have yet to replace it. I am going to pick up a phosphate kit at the LFS. I have been feeding less and staying on top of my water changes. I plan to add a GFO reactor too in the future.

I have had corals that are taking their sweet time to recover from mistakes I made 8+ months ago. It can take a loooong time for them to get to their happy spot.

[jservedio]

Your Radion Intensity is very low for a tank that size. Over my 20g, my Radion Pro peaks at 60% and that has an extra UV channel and a bit more power (thought I have 120 degree optics). I bet your PAR is incredibly low in the bottom half of your tank and off to the sides and that is contributing to your slow growth. Since you have a single light, it would probably be a good idea to throw on the wide angles to even out PAR and run your lights at double their intensity after acclimating.

 

Also, Alk swing 2 months ago is not a long recovery period. It took 4 months for any growth on my acros at all after I finished treating for AEFW. Then, one day, they exploded again with growth and haven't looked back.

 

Get your stability back and use acclimitzation mode on your Radion to slowly bring the intensity up.